are we ever going to have power manager?

On Win8, will there ever be a compatible one? I use win7 in compatibility mode, but sometimes crashes. Should I put my hopes up or just forget about such a software?

 

The Power Manager is dead and it won´t return anytime soon.

The only thing which is possible that Lenovo decides to updates the Lenovo Settings App with more settings.

 

as far i know for windows 8 this feature won't be available.

 

Anyone ever get an explanation on WHY they killed Power Manager?

 

@Thors Hammer. Exactly!

@ibmthink and lead_org. Why?! Has Lenovo issued any statement regarding no further implementation of Power Manager in W8? I am thankful I have returned to and am running W7 for now!

 

Well apparently the new battery is smart enough to manage its longevity without the 'old' Power Manager. I am not sure the exact internal reasons why Lenovo dropped it.

 

See: Windows 8 Metro Settings App Lacks Almost All Func... - Lenovo Community

 

Good response.

The OP's 1st paragraph has this questionable statement:
>"The Power Manager for Windows 7 has a setting that will cycle the battery periodically (completely discharge and recharge) to avoid losing battery capacity when it is constantly topped off."<

I thought that Li-ion batteries do not require "maintenance" using "cycling" (completely discharge and recharge). Rechargeable ni-MH batteries need it, but as far as I know, Li-ion batteries do not need it. The only "cycling" that I do, with my 2 laptops, is very minor when I sometimes run on battery. Certainly nothing close to completely running the Li-ion battery down.

See: Advantages and limitations of the Different Types of Batteries - Battery University

The 1st response was by a Lenovo staff person and confirms that current Li-ion batteries do not need cycling (posting in your above_ref), and specifically states:
>"However on recent systems, battery technology and firmware advances make the need for periodic discharge/recharge cycles unnecessary.<"

 

Since when is this Lenovo's fault? I don't expect them to support every toy OS.

Honestly they have already gone too far that way by slashing a row of keys.

 

Despite what the people says, the Li-ion still do need cycling to calibrate the battery meter to tell laptop battery controller when it is at its optimal health states. Also, the new Li-Polymer battery that Lenovo uses apparently suppose to have 1000 charge cycle lifespan, i have number of Li-polymer batteries on my X1 and X1C started to exhibit battery life issue at below 50 charge cycles and 6 months lifespan. I am not sure whether this is the inherent battery design issue, or just a bad batch of Li-polymer battery.

Finally, having more control is better than having less control, so as such the Traditional Power Manager software is really useful.

P.S. Recently i have discovered that the new version of Windows 7 ThinkVantage PM have this inflight option, which limits the input wattage, this is useful on plane where the outlet only gives you 75 watts of power, and your laptop is drawing more due to having to charge the battery.

 

Thats also something I noticed with my T430u, the Sanyo Battery has lost 23% after 65 charge cycles. Maybe the Sanyo Li-Po batteries are bad, I recently noticed Lenovo have stopped using Sanyo cells with all new ThinkPads with integrated Li-Polymer battery, instead, they are now using Sony batteries. For example, see the parts list of S431 / S531 and the T431s:
http://download.lenovo.com/parts/ThinkPad/s431_fru_bom_20130612.pdf
http://download.lenovo.com/parts/ThinkPad/s531_fru_bom_20130612.pdf
http://download.lenovo.com/parts/ThinkPad/t431s_fru_bom_20130321.xlsx.pdf

 

This topic brings one question up: How can we read out battery stats in Windows 8?

 

I haven't been using my T430u regularly, since the battery life is a bit shorter than my X230 and X230t with the slice battery. But i will keep an eye on them. However, if you are losing 23% after only 65 charge cycles then i will be worried, since these batteries are rated for 1000 cycles and even then it should still hold 50% of the original design charge.

 

I'm in agreement with this. I prefer having more discrete control over a wide variety of settings. The approach Lenovo took with Windows 8 just doesn't get it done.

 

this is pretty disappointing news considering this is the year i'm finally committed to upgrading from my T400.

 

There a several ways to do this:
- With 3rd parts programs
- With the Poser Manager (if you want to install it in the compatibility mode)
- With the Lenovo Support App (only available if your Windows 8 is activated with an OEM key), The Support App battery overview looks like this:

Another user of the T430u in our German forum also has problems with the T430u battery (also Sanyo). I think I will call Lenovo to replace my battery with the second battery available for the T430u (from Sony, FRU 45N1091) if my battery continues to loose capacity.

 

Not sure how it is on other Thinkpads, but my X120e running W8 runs Power Manager (installed using compatibility mode for W7) without any problems except for the screen-off hotkey (Fn + End) not functioning for whatever reason.

 

Keep an eye out for this:
Power-Manager | thinkutils

 

You have way more real experience than me, so I defer somewhat.

But what I read on "Li-ion still do need cycling" (with regard to calibrate) seems questionable.

See: Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

@OtherSongs,

I think it is better that you don't always rely on Wikipedia as your sole information source, or assume that everything said inside directly reflects the latest wisdom on the subject matter (or that it is unbiased).

http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v12/n6/full/nmat3623.html <--- here is the latest publication in nature that says Li-ion also suffers from memory effect, albeit less, but not completely eliminated as the li-ion battery manufacturer wants the consumer to believe.

News in Brief: Questions raised about lithium-ion cell

Paul Scherrer Institut (PSI) :: Memory effect now also found in lithium-ion batteries

 

Li-Ion batteries - at least the ones seen in ThinkPads - most certainly require cycling. I've had batteries that had arrived in "red" turn "green" after a couple of deep cycling sessions. On the other side of the fence, I've killed more than one battery that way, thanks to Lenovo's firmware...

All in all, a healthy battery should be deep cycled from time to time in my not-so-modest experience.

Now, I haven't played (nor have I any intention of ever doing so) with the new generation of batteries seen in *30 series, so the statement above may or may not be applicable to them.

 

OK and thank you for the input!

I have the slightly older 6 cell for my X220, and both a very new 70+ (6 cell) and 70++ (9 cell) for my T530.

Out of honest curiosity, how do you "deep cycle" your slightly older ThinkPad Li-ion batteries???

Please bury us all with a few exact details.

I defer to guys like you and lead_org, who have way more real experience than I do.

 

so if theyre not including power manager, i assume that means theres no option to set charge thresholds?

if so, are they claiming these new batteries are smart enough to not have to worry about thresholds at all? i can have my computer charged to 100%, use it down to 85%, the battery recharges back to 100% when plugged back in, with no long term loss to the health of the battery?
if thats the case here, then great, i dont need power manager.

 

Thanks for the links/info.

So @ajkula66 thinks that "a healthy battery should be deep cycled from time to time"

But no one is willing to speculate on how exactly to accomplish that.

How about:

Is the Lenovo Li-ion battery composition (i.e. materials used, like lithium and iron etc) the same for the *30 batteries as it is for the *20 batteries???

 

Deep cycling is when you fully discharge and fully recharge.

Battery composition would only be something that the people involved with the design and manufacturing would know. Whether anything have changed between models would require to disassembly of the battery pack, and check whether the individual battery cells model number have changed or not, then enquire with the battery cell manufacturers based on model number.

@OtherSongs, do you want to take the initiative and start disassembling your battery cells to answer your own questions?

 

Nope. It's just the fact that some of us have to work for a living and not necessarily always have time to tend to the questions that could be answered by a simple visit to a search engine of one's choice...

 

I adore simple pleasures. They are the last refuge of the complex. O.Wilde

 

I got a plus rep coupled with a comment from @ajkula66.

So I'll try again, without any Oscar Wilde quotes.

It's clear (to me) that charge/discharge of Li-ion batteries is not simple.

And current understanding of what goes on is rapidly changing right now in 2013.

One good site that's a very long read is: Sharing Battery Knowledge Essays & Feedback - Battery University

I was simply (pun intended) trying to get @lead_org and @ajkula66 to state how far down they discharged to, when they did a deep cycle while running on battery, and also how often they actually did that. They're the ones with way more experience than me.

e.g. my new 9 cell 70++ battery (for my T530) showed up with a 7% charge.

So when running on battery, is it safe to run one's laptop Li-ion battery down to 7% ???

I mean, running a NiMH battery completely down is a bad thing to do. So where's the limit with a Li-ion battery?

And then there's how often?

Perhaps once every...?

 

In windows 7, i use the battery maintenance feature within the ThinkVantage Power Manager to recalibrate the battery, i do it every once and will (1 month or 2 months depending on the situation).

0% reading doesn't mean your battery is discharged completely, Lenovo built in some leeway to prevent over discharge of their battery, thus causing permanent and irreversible damage to the battery. If you store this '0%‘ battery for couple of months then self discharge behaviour of Li-ion battery will cause the battery to go completely flat (and drop below safety cutoff voltage). This is why li-ion battery when stored are kept at around 40 to 60% charge state, and new battery always have some charge in it. If your new battery came in with 7%, then it just tells you it has been sitting in the storage for sometime already.

If you are really pursuing for the truth and latest wisdom in battery knowledge, i think you should read peer journal articles instead (i.e. nature, science, etc). Rather than things like wikipedia, battery university, or what not, since they are not always updated frequently enough to reflect the latest and greatest innovation that occurs within the li-ion and li-polymer battery.

 

I can't answer that question for the new *30 generation batteries, but it would be safe to do so on an older ThinkPad battery by all means.

That really depends on a couple of things, the most important one IMO being what one is trying to accomplish:

a) If a battery is in a machine that sees regular use, and shows no signs of losing capacity, it's best left alone, never charged to 100% and fully discharged-then-recharged (deep cycled) once every three months or so.

b) In a case where one is trying to improve a battery that has seen little use according to the cycle count, but holds less of a charge than one would expect, I deep cycle it once, use it for a day (presuming that the capacity has stayed the same or improved and not got worse) then deep cycle it again, use for another day, and deep cycle one more time. Please be advised that I've killed numerous (mostly Sony/Sanyo) batteries using this routine, some of which had as few as 60 cycles when I was greeted with the message that the "battery has failed due to normal use and cannot be recharged"...
It usually works very well with Panasonic batteries, which are head and shoulders above the rest in my not-so-modest experience.

Obviously, YMMV.

Some people are outright obsessed with getting out the most life (as in years, not hours on a single charge) from their batteries. My take has always been that batteries are consumables and should be treated as such. Not that I haven't uttered a few choice words when some of them decided to kick the bucket in a less-than-opportune moment, though...