keyboards, keyboards, keyboards

I've been using ThinkPads for only the past 6 years. I had a T60 which I reviewed for Notebook review.

There are two main reasons (historically) to get a Thinkpad: serviceable/durable and the keyboard.

Now I note in the recent launch we have at least different keycaps on the keyboard. The board looks like that of the X100/X1 series.

Here is my question: how do these feel in terms of key travel and force, and auditory feedback? (Please state what models you are familiar with using the older the better T40s...)

My X200 still has a lot of life in it to be honest, and I am not sure that I can scrape together the cash for an X220 right now, but I'd hate to be left without a laptop with a keyboard I like to type on.

(I am assuming that because the X220 keyboard looks like the X200 one it is the same).

 

My x100e had a lot of travel and it was easy to push down each key. I can't explain it, but the sensation when you typed on it was great. Huge preference based thing though. If you can, I would see if there any places where you test out a model that has a chiclet style keyboard on it.

I actually liked the x100e keyboard more than my T61's keyboard. (Don't tell anyone though, they'll oust me for saying that... )

 

I did a bit of typing on my parent's x120e I bought for them and although it's acceptable, I still would prefer the traditional thinkpad keyboard. Just personal preference I suupose.

 

I wish it were possible (to test one) as it looks like what I would think is the best bits to get on a X220 would set me back about 950 right now. (IPS is important also, glad they retained that on the X230).

 

It's just so hard to predict on how you will react to it though. They're two completely different styles and when you throw in user preferences, it just makes it nearly impossible guess whether or not you would like it....

 

I would guess I won't like it as I don't like any other notebook keyboard I have ever used... If it really is just a completely different keyboard design odds are I will hate it. Though clearly the alternative is possible the preponderance of data is contrary.

What I am learning from you is they have nothing in common? IE it isn't just the keycaps that are different?

 

I've been using the "traditional" keyboard for a long time, and I spent about 2 weeks using an Edge 420, which is similar to the new keyboards. I actually preferred the Edge keyboard, and I've hated every other chichlet keyboard I've tried. It's hard to explain, but the key tops are larger--but with their shape your finger kinda falls into the middle. The "reach" feels the same. I'm a 70wpm typist, so faster than normal but not crazy fast. The only time I tested over 80 was on the Edge keyboard.

The "travel" and feel is more similar to an old-school desktop keyboard, almost like a Model M. It's long-travel and "clicky", to use scientific jargon... It was also very loud! Not sure if it was the specific model or what, but it was a very noisy keyboard. I like the audible feedback, but I imagine there are situations where it would be a bit annoying. So, all-in-all I really like the keyboard.

As far as the "durability" aspect though...I have to wonder how much of that is simply perceived more than reality? My T61 certainly didn't fit the bill--in 3 years I lost 2 keyboards, 2 fans and one wireless card--and eventually the motherboard died from the Nvidia graphics card meltdown. The Edge was on its second keyboard in 2 weeks (along with a host of other problems), and the X220 with which is was replaced was shipped with the wrong display. I'm trying to resolve that, and customer service has been massively disappointing. So, it seems that the the "business class durability" is largely trading on the brand of days gone past. I don't see any sort of advantage in build quality. If anything, the opposite in my limited experience.

Keyboard feel is very subjective, but you may find that you like the new keyboard. OTOH, if you think that the Thinkpad brand offers advantage of durability, quality and service, my honest opinion is that you can probably do better.

 

I'm wondering if the new keyboards are like the U300s and allow for the machine to breath from the top. Looking at the pics of the T430 and others seem to indicate the new machines are bottom breathers.

For those of you that haven't had the opportunity to use the X1, I think you'll dig the new backlit keyboards (assuming they are of the same quality). Of the chicklet keyboards on the market, they are sure to rank close to the top.

So get over it already.

 

It's rather difficult for some of us to get over it, since it's the new layout that we're opposed to and not the island-style keyboard per se.

Count me amongst those who are about to ditch more than a decade of brand loyalty when it comes to ThinkPads.

 

I wonder how this is going to impact sales for 2012, and if Lenovo is prepared to offer "classic" keyboards in case this "new Coke" test fails miserably.

I know in my case, I won't be needing another ThinkPad for quite some time. If the Carbon gets rave reviews, has IPS, and I get a good corp discount, I will surely add it to my ThinkPad collection. But that isn't going to happen right away.

 

The sales will be great for 2012. Here's why:

I just ordered a X220T that I had no intent of buying prior to confirmation of the new keyboard layout. Trust me when I tell you that I'm far from being the only one who made such a move on *20 series.

From what I'm to understand, there will be no reversal of the new keyboard design, which is NOT compatible with the old machines, and vice versa.

 

I don't see why it wouldn't be backwards compatible, seeing as X230 is the same chassis as the X220 unless they changed the palmrest.

 

I used the Edge 13 keyboard. Is it very different from the one on X1?

Here's what I hated about it:
- PrtSc key placement - , I want "context menu" key there!
- no dedicated volume keys
- F keys accessible only with Fn (but can be changed in BIOS)
- no spacing between F keys
- tiny delete and escape key (fixed on X1)
- terrible PgUp/PgDn keys (fixed on **30 models)
- tiny arrow keys (fixed on **30 models)
- flat arrow keys, looks like they still are
- flat trackpoint buttons, I prefer them curved to fit nicely to my fingers

Despite that, typing on the keyboard is pretty good.

Here's a nice comparison:
T430
T420s
Notice the change in trackpoint buttons and lack of spacing in the top row.

Change isn't necessarily bad. However, what bothers me is that good, ergonomic and useful stuff has been traded for what, stupid plain look? Namely:
- rounded trackpoint buttons
- curved arrow buttons
- 7th row
- spacing in the top row
- nice, large escape and delete keys

 

I wonder how the new keyboard would fare in the liquid spill test.

 

I believe the new keyboards are supposed to be spill resistant like the old ones.

I for one am going to into it with an open mind. I've liked ThinkPad keyboards in the past. I've no reason to believe I'll dislike the new ones until proven otherwise. Perhaps it's terrible and a cost cutting move that they don't care about the reaction, but life is full of surprises and things sometimes turn out the exact opposite of what you think going in.

 

Tested and confirmed by a *very* reliable source.

An independent third party.

That's all I'm allowed to say for now.

 

X220 and X230 uses different keyboard connectors.

X230 keyboard connector for the keyboard would have a separate cable connection for the keyboard and trackpoint part.

 

Well that's a disappointment really. The Edge and x120e keyboard really isn't bad at all, but it's not something I want on a traditional ThinkPad. I hope Lenovo will change back to the _60/61 series keyboards as I probably won't buy any new one (keyboard is important for me) or continue to buy older ThinkPads. If it's something you have to use on a daily basis, then it's important for me. If you have the best specs in the world, but the world's crappiest screen and keyboard, no point in high specs if you have to look at a horrible screen all day.

 

Have you even used the keyboard yet? And already you've written it off as the world's crappiest?

Enjoy your 701C.

 

I think most of the conservatism over the keyboard here has more to do with aesthetics rather than the actual quality of the new keyboard. The transition to this new keyboard is quite a visceral departure from the old, that is certain.

 

Erik?

Erik?

I'm still trying to hook up my TRS-80 keyboard to my T61. Erik?

 

I have a thinkpad i1454 for 13 yrs and another (E420) for 2 yrs. Funny thing is that I didn't realize their keyboards are different until about two weeks ago when someone on this forum pointed out differences.

IMHO the difference between the old and new keyboards has been blown out of proportion.

 

There is a very big difference between the edge keyboards and the keyboard on the X1. They look very similar, but they feel very different. Being a former X1 and X220 tablet owner, my personal preference favors the X1's keyboard.

 

It really depends on whether you use keyboard shortcuts like Ctrl+Shift+Home, Ctrl+Break etc, hundreds of times daily, and w/o looking at the keyboard.

Most users just doing the usual typing don't see a big difference. But having to press Fn+Ctrl+B instead of Ctrl+Break is quite annoying, especially if the Thinkpad keyboard is not the only keyboard you need to use.

One of the great attributes of "proper" Thinkpads for many years was the lack of unnecessary experiments with keyboard layout. With the previous update, that brought the oversized Esc and Delete keys, it was different, but arguably for the better. Now it's just degradation w/o any benefit Hopefully, Lenovo will not proceed down this slippery path, and will at least keep separate Home/End/PgUp/PgDn in the next T/W/Xx40 models, and not replace them with Fn+Arrows, as many vendors do.

 

One other thing. I have been assuming all along that Lenovo is using the " Stradivarius" keyboard they designed for the X1. If they aren't, and are using a cheaper and lower quality keyboard, then I take back what I said.

My assumption Lenovo is using a high quality keyboard across all lines could be totally false.

 

As the wise guys always say, you oughta try it with yer old fat fingers.

 

I'll wait for the early adopters to assess that. My crusty fat fingers have plenty of award winning keyboards to use right now.

Most likely I won't enter this era until I see my discount on the X1 Carbon.

 

getting an X220 keyboard to fit an X230 won't be the challenge.   BIOSes contain keyboard maps for specific layouts and a 7-row keyboard won't map correctly on a 6-row BIOS.   all this speculation around keyboard swapping is irrelevant without a different (or modded) BIOS.

that's all i can say for now.™

 

I've used multiple Edge keyboards, while they are okay, I want the traditional styled keyboard. Helps to read my post. And I actually don't even like the newer FRU keyboards on the X220 and the T410s that I owned for a short period.

 

Oh, I read it. I thought it was one of the most negative posts on the keyboard issue in this forum. Here is the full post for reference purposes:

You are of course entitled to your opinion, everyone has one. But I was surprised to read something like this written by a forum mod.

I hope Lenovo really knows what they are doing because it is sure causing a lot of negative energy. I am not going to comment further until I actually have my eval units and have a chance to actually use them for a week or two.

 

There's not going to be lost sales over this. Most people buying Thinkpads look for good ergonomics (including the keyboard), but are not bothered by the lack of a 7-row layout.

As for the island-style keys, I find that most of my friends (many of whom use Thinkpads) are either fine with island-style keys, or prefer them for aesthetic reasons. Personally, I don't mind too much either way in terms of the key design; I like the keyboard on my T500 and my X120e equally. I'm a bit worried about the lack of the 7-row layout, but there are still larger factors in the game and it's not a dealbreaker for me.

 

I've fallen in love with the page back and page forward keys, and printscreen. Here's hoping my future thinkpad will maintain at least those keys in the right places. Then again, I'm perfectly okay with the clickpad after using the two-finger scroll mod, so my opinion on chiclet keys and the new layout might be an exception.

 

What's wrong with a 'forum mod' expressing his own opinion? As far as I know, these 'mods' are simply volunteers chosen from a pool of forum users that use the board more frequently than others. They do not represent the opinions of the site (or any other organisation), and I (for one) certainly do not read it as that.

This keyboard change is a very radical one, to put it mildly.

 

It's nothing like a Model M.

Every ThinkPad made has used scissor switches (vs. the Model M's buckling springs) and none of them have had anything close to the stroke depth on any Model M. The Model M also has a *much* higher activation force than most any scissor-switch keyboard out there.

 

Well, that's my perception--having used the Model M up until I gave up all together on desktops. As I said, 'more like my Model M than the regular TP keyboard'. Again, that's my perception. The auditory effect from the E420 may contribute to this for me, I don't know. The Edge keyboard I used also required more force than the X220 I'm using now, by a pretty good margin. I don't know if there's variance among different vendors. Regardless, this is my subjective experience with the various keyboards.

 

After seeing your post, I just typed on my E420 and then my 13 yrs old thinkpad. My conclusion is that my E420 must have a different keyboard from your edge.

 

That's entire possible. I went through 3 keyboards in the space of about 2 weeks (various trackpoint buttons not functioning on the first 2), and 1 of the 3 felt noticeably softer. My T61 keyboard was also quite used, so maybe that's why it felt so different than the keyboard on the E420. The E420 keyboards were new, so that may be a contributing factor as well.

All this said, the keyboard on the new models may be different than the Edge keyboard(s) I used. I tried an E520 in Office Depot (very briefly) and it also seemed quite soft, and felt like it have a shorter throw.

 

Very well put! I happen to also share your sentiments - why not try out the change and see what happens! I also don't think Lenovo has taken this decision lightly. They must know the premium sentiments their KB commands in the marketplace. I also like the idea of having both the ThinkLight and the backlit keys!

 

The fact that they know about the sentiment doesn't mean that they care about it...

 

Count me partially in, too. I was holding out to see if the X230 would amount to anything, and while IB is surely a plus I like my 7-row keyboard too much to change. I touch type, and having the delete and pgup/pgdn keys in their 7-row layout is extremely important to me (tested over 120wpm). I went and got myself an X220.

Before anyone calls me out on not using the new keyboard... if it's anything like my sister's Edge, it's certainly not a bad keyboard. Feels better than any chiclet keyboard I've ever used. The travel is a delight, unlike Apple or HP's chiclets. It's just that I want my 7-row goodness.

 

Exactly my feelings. I touch type, I also work with AS/400 systems which means I use F keys alot.. I like my F key seperation, and I have a real hard time with keyboards that don't have the traditional layout for the PGUP, PGDN, Home, END, etc. keys. Having them in 1 row is much harder (hmm, was HOME the 3rd or 4th key from the end) .

Had they kept a 7 row chicklet keyboard, I'd be all in.

 

So why eliminate that 7th row? I'm completely fine with the switch to the island-style keys on the "core" ThinkPads, but why take out keys that might actually see some use from the people who purchase those ThinkPads? It makes sense to do it on the Edge series because the intent was to streamline the keyboarding experience for their "consumer" and "small business" market, but I feel like it's not as clear-cut for the traditional markets of the T, X, and W series.

 

Makes about as much sense as if they were to remove the trackpoint... I'll bet they could base such a change on a study where they would probably find that a relatively low percentage of people actually use that thing, and I'd bet there are even a few that don't like that red thing on their keyboard. I don't want it removed, I use it on occasion, but truth be told I would rather loose it than my keys.

 

The keyboard change is nothing but an attempt to gain access to younger users who want something cooler than a Mac...

Those of us who have used the traditional 7-row keyboard for a decade plus, and actually utilize our ThinkPads for work purposes have been declared expendable.

 

People who want something cooler than a Mac won't be buying a thinkpad.... they don't scream "cool" at all. The keyboard change may have come about to tap other markets, but the "cool" market ain't one of em.

 

I don't see what "other markets" they could possibly be evaluating with this type of change...

Whether ThinkPads are cool...and in whose opinion...that's a whole another ballgame.

 

I use my Thinkpad for work, I've used the old keyboard for over a decade, and personally I prefer the new layout.

I certainly understand that some may be bothered by the new layout, but don't assume everyone shares your disdain or that everyone who prefers the new layout is using it as a toy...

 

I had used an Edge 420 for two yrs before realizing it has a precision keyboard that is different that of my 13 yrs old Thinkpad. So I guess I couldn't care less.

 

I don't recall using the word "toy" in my previous post and I don't deem Macs to be toys either.

While I understand that the new layout may very well be preferred by some users, and that are those who are indifferent about it, if you do a little web search you'll find out that quite a few people - mostly old-time ThinkPad users - are extremely unhappy with the layout that was presented on the *30 generation.

That being said, it is what it is: some users will adjust, and some won't. Lenovo has made the call to extinguish the layout that was synonymous with the ThinkPad name for well over a decade.

 

I'm keeping X220T for the long run, but the keyboard is at least reason for me to be happy about this fact. Other than that , I am slightly jealous of the optional backlit kb and super jealous of the new 1600x900 screen if it really is an option. ESPECIALLY if it's IPS.