new L series become another R series

It seems that the L series are increasingly been strengthened to make it a robust machines for business use (even if it is a budget line). The new L420/520 will sport a large stainless steel hinge, to increase the strength of one of the weakest area of L series of the past (and something that many customers complaint about).







Will the new L series becomes more and more like the R series of the old. So this begs the question, did Lenovo make a mistake when they axed R series to chase the original SL/L series?

Given that X series have started using the new common keyboard format, one does beg the question WHY L series still use that odd separate keyboard format, when it could share the scale of production and use one single keyboard format? (The most likely answer lies in the fact that Lenovo wants to use their current L series moulds and production systems for as long as possible to save costs).

 

It might be more than simply getting the most out of sunken money--I could be totally off base, but I get the feeling they killed the R series because it was getting to be a little too close to the T series, especially the 14 inch versions. At the end they were pretty much physically exactly the same save a few mm in girth, no? Economies of scales be damned if you are cannibalizing your upmarket sales. And when you consider the value 'i' moniker, it's already rather difficult to differentiate the models spec wise, so something has got to give.

 

Very true that the latter R series became too much of a T series. I think in terms of design, the old 15 inch and 15.4 inch R series were something that should be kept (they probably should offer less options too). R400 and its R61 14.1 inch siblings was Lenovo shooting itself in the foot.

I think eventually the L series would become something like the R500 minus the internal rollcage.

Personally, i think the keyboard and button layout of the L series looks ugly.

 

It's a matter of product differentiation. The R series was too similar to the T series. By the R61 and then R400 generation, the only difference between the T and R series was a matter of thickness and some more top end features for the T series. The price difference was only 50-100 dollars.

Lenovo likely launched the SL series to attract more lower end markets, and then, after realizing how closely alike the R and T series had become, decided to make the SL series more business-like by getting rid of the gloss. Now the L series continues evolving.

But I really don't understand the design of the SL/L series. Why did they make the laptop so thick and boring? Why the six row keyboard? If there is a rational answer, I think it can only be price differentiation. After all, they had to go through the costs of designing a slightly different keyboard type and casing. So even as it improves, the t series still has attractive features over the L that allow for the price difference.

Also, R is a cooler letter than L, just saying.

 

I think in the future L series should get the proper keyboard, even if it doesn't or won't have an internal Mg rollcage (would be nice to have an external Al or Mg bottom casing).

 

If you think about it, Lenovo's pretty much painted themselves in a corner in terms of what they can offer as a lower end Thinkpad, while remaining true to form. The well built, conservative black box design that never changes (I suppose Thinkpad is the Porsche of the computer industry in that sense) has become so iconic, either loved for hated, that they have limited options to differentiate a lower end product. What are they?

One, tank the build quality while damaging one of the core brand values in the process (which is why I suspect the metal hinges made a come back in the L series). Two, value tweak the aesthetics of an already conservative design that will fail to attract new customers, while alienating those traditionalists that don't mind/like the simple design, but don't want anything worse (perhaps the reason why the L series so thick and boring). Three, create something entirely different so to hamstring any passing basis for comparison and slap the thinkpad brand on it (The Edge).

 

Nice assessment! The last line - so very true! (Personal experience... just saying... )

 

Im glad to see that R continues to live on as L series, hopefully it will get more options and become more robust.
Lack of roll cage doesnt bother me that much, its somewhat great feature, but doesnt necessarily save a laptop or make it more robust in everyday use.
Sure, I wouldnt mind reinforced laptop protection for accidental drop protection, but if it increases costs and eats into T series sales, then Lenovo wont do it, probably.
I doubt that L series will change more, unless consumers demand for HD+ options in 14" model and other goodies that T series have.
Edge will now have ThinkLight, L series dont?
On the other hand I think L series could have all the options that T series have, minus roll cage, ultrabay, battery life, weight, dimensions, materials used.

 

Am I understanding you correctly here? Are you suggesting that the L series could have everything the T series has - ultrabay, battery life, weight, dimensions, materials used - minus the roll cage? If yes, then I don't think there would be a significant difference between the L and the T series, which would be a replay of the T and the R series confusion.

OTOH, if you are suggesting that the L series could do without the above features (including the roll-cage) - in a bid to differentiate itself from the T series and to avoid cannabalizing the sales of T series machines - then I wonder what else is left for the L series to sport and to differentiate itself from the non ThinkPad machines of the Lenovo stable?

A while back I remember there was a thread discussing these matter and someone made the suggestion that the ThinkPad lineup should be spread across three letters - X, T, W. The X taking care of the ultraportable machines (there was a lot of support for including a 13" version!), the T taking care of the 14" and 15" category, and the W series for the high-end of the market beginning with the 15" category. I can't find the link at the moment, but it is here on NBR.

 

How about adding the Thinklight back on the L?

 

I agree that the line-up maybe should be streamlined. The X being the 13.3-12" screens, the T being 14 and 15", and the W for the high end models. The L series could become the TL (L being light) - everything the T series has just minus the roll cage. This would probably keep the costs down, as at the moment it's about 200 more (my country pricing) for the T from the L? The Edge could be moved into the Ideapad or just kept as it is.

I think the ThinkLight, and the latch should be standard on all ThinkPads. Just like the trackpoint is standard! And the keyboard should also be the same accross the range.

However, as an owner of an L series. I honestly can't fault it. I have compared it to a D630 and the quality is the same. The D630 does have a latch for the screen though! However the D630 at the time was more expensive and was supposed to be a rugged notebook. The new L series seems to have everything the small business/average user could want. I wish mine had the metal hinges!

 

This.
As for differentiation - well, what besides looks, hinges, trackpoint and customer service current L/SL series have in common with X/T/W? ThinkPads have evolved, changed, added series, dropped them throughout time, W/T/X werent there from the first models, they appeared during evolution. L series is just logical evolution for classic ThinkPad family, yes, classic ThinkPad and not as someone calls them ''ThinkPad branded IdeaPads''.
For that title you might have Edge series, but even that is questionable given the upcoming refresh, we will see about that, how much ThinkPad or IdeaPad there is in new Edge laptops.

L=cheap no frills ThinkPad, starters choice, entry level.
T=mainstream corporate ThinkPad, advanced choice with more features available, somewhat more robust than L series
W=most powerful workstation grade ThinkPad, for those, who need extra horse power, better screen options, pro's choice to get intensive job done, to do something more than just consume information or write reports.
X=ultra portable lightweight ThinkPad, for those, who need lightweight, yet powerful enough companion that lasts through the day on a charge, that doesnt take up much space and is built on par with its big T/W brothers to survive intensive use and abuse during different scenarious.

Wheres the problem differentiating them?

At the same time, Lenovo could add ThinkLight and ultrabay option to its L series. Then again, perhaps average Joes and Janes who might buy L series dont need Ultrabay expansion, ThinkLight or fancy roll cage and want simply cheapest ThinkPad to get work done according to their usage habits?
Perhaps not everyone needs bulletproof laptop, maybe thats why Panasonic has so many Lets Note's and ToughBooks to choose from?
Look at HP, they have Elitebooks and additionaly 2 Probook lines and then some more, 42x/62x series laptops as their cheapest entry business laptops!
Why cant Lenovo? Because of stupid elitist attitude that only laptops with roll cage, ultrabay, 7h+ battery life and so on can be categorized as "real" ThinkPads? Nah, just bull...
I dont care if its called ThinkPad and doesnt have roll cage, as long as its built accordingly to match price and features and user experience and is built to last during its intended and advertised use.
ThinkPad is Lenovos business brand, so why come up and reinvent the bicycle by starting another business family brand? Deal with it.
Perhaps in future Lenovo migh differentiate their Edge ThinkPads as separate family and simply call them Edge? Other than that, I see no reason why not calling L series the true ThinkPad, it looks like one, its intended to work like one and hey - people buy them and use them just like they would use more expensive T series.
Hey, what about this - lets not call 14" T410 a ThinkPad anymore - it doesnt have screen roll cage anymore, its screen protection is close to that of SL/L series !

More so, given how T series have declined in quality I might as well get myself L series in the future as less portable companion to 12" ultraportable Im plannig to get in future as well, if they continue to improve on L series quality and features then I see no reason why pay more for T series if I can save couple hundred dollars on such deal? It might sound far fetched, but lets see how L series evolve, if they go the same route R series went then why not getting it as desktop bound ThinkPad without roll cage and for considerably cheaper
Some are not looking for T series and hence buy simpler L series despite only 100 or 200 bucks price difference.

If, however, T series improve in quality, then ofcourse its easier to justify extra dollars spent on T series for improved durability and considerably higher quality and mobility.

I know tha I would like my next ThinkPad to be ultraportable from X family and my current to become desktop machine for consumption of infromation rather than production works and creativity.

 

"Why cant Lenovo? Because of stupid elitist attitude that only laptops with roll cage, ultrabay, 7h+ battery life and so on can be categorized as "real" ThinkPads? Nah, just bull..."

Absolutely right. Something I saw quite a lot... But now the T410 doesn't have the roll cage on the screen, then I think the price should be lowered. Is there any Lenovo models that have both the roll cage on the screen and on the bottom?

And what replaces the roll cage on the screen for the T410?

 

That L in the pictures is actually a nice looking machine there!

I too would be all for streamlining the "series" of machines available....

 

They dropped the roll cage on T410 screen cover(no roll cage for LCD), while T410s, T510, W510 have the next gen roll cage.

Lenovoblogs.com Matt Kohut said that new T420 will have next gen roll cage too, lets see if its true:
My concerns:
Inside the Box ThinkPad T420s
Matt's answer:
Inside the Box ThinkPad T420s

 

Thanks! That clears it up, if Lenovo are accurate then the new line of T series will all have the next-generation roll cage.
What exactly is the new roll cage and how does it differ from the previous version?

 

The support behind the L series (long term parts availability) and the docking capabilities (it can dock right?) still make it more than a consumer laptop. The distinctions between laptops are never big ones.

 

Well for starters it's not a cage at all. In fact, it's completely different from the original "roll cage". The term was first used to refer to a magnesium frame used within the base of the T60 series, and later had its use expanded to cover a honeycomb structure placed within the lid of the T61, T400, and T500 series to protect the LCD.

The addition of the "next generation rollcage" is actually the complete removal of the magnesium frame from the lid of the laptop; instead, the design of a plastic cover over a metal frame is replaced with a single lid piece made of carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic. In my experience, this design is exceptionally resistant to compression when the laptop is closed, but vastly inferior (compared to the original magnesium "roll cage") in terms of resistance to torsion.

 

Thanks ThinkRob.

I suppose the next generation ThinkPad's that have the magnesium roll cage will have this replaced by the newer style for both the lid and the internals?

I can see the advantages, but then I suppose this reduces costs and if Lenovo can pass this on to the buyer; then maybe the trade off is worth it...

 

Internal bottom magnesium rollcage would probably remain the same as before, the top casing would probably become the new CFRP version that the T510 and W510 are currently using.

While, CFRP when properly made (i.e. using whole fibers rather than shredded fibers) and formed (carbon fiber are properly dried before resin impregnation) have a good young's modulus (i.e. those one used in superstructures of the new airbus and boeing airplanes). However, those carbon fibers supplied by Toray industries (whom also supply Carbon Fibers to the airplane industry) for use in CFRP casing that Thinkpad uses are just small shredded fibers. There is no directional uniformity to which the carbon fibers are laid before resin impregnation. So such CFRP are less stiff as the equivalent shape, thickness Magnesium casing.

However, CFRP frames used in airplanes do cost at least around couple of thousands time more on a weight basis than those CFRP casing thinkpads use.

The advantages of using only CFRP frames MINUS internal magnesium rollcage for Lenovo are that:

1. Simplified manufacturing, since there are less parts to put together and therefore monetary saving on the manufacturing process.

2. Better fit and finish, since there are less parts to interfere and worry about when assembling the top screen case MINUS the stiff magnesium rollcage.

3. Better parts inventory management and therefore further cost savings, since Lenovo have to stock less parts.

--------------------

The reason that the bottom internal magnesium rollcage will remain is due to the fact that the motherboards are susceptible to minor flexing, which is why the magnesium rollcage was put in the T60 in the first place. CFRP (which was used as a bottom casing material in the T4x) was not stiff enough to avoid motherboard flexing, so if Lenovo would to use such material for the bottom internal cage, then they would turned full circle on the problem and start at square one.

 

I suppose it's about reducing costs in manufacturing, and the parts stock Lenovo have! Which I think is a little disappointing...

I just hope the T420 and future ThinkPad's that do not have the magnesium rollcage on the screen still offer the same, if not better protection for the screen. As the shreds probably will have a hard job of proving themselves!

Still, I'd buy one as I'm sure it will be better made than the other brands!

 

The only way to find it out is to buy Elitebooks and Latitudes and Thinkpads and then compare from your own experience

 

That will be an expensive exercise. I almost did once, but decided that i didn't want to waste all the money doing so.

 

Well I haven't seen a HP Elitebook, but the Dell Latitudes I've seen are well made, but nothing "special" The Vostro line is the same as the Inspiron so I would say they don't compete at all.

I use a D630 a lot and the L412 is better made than the Dell hands down.

Whether that changes in the future will be interesting...

 

Well actually, you could also say that the new T series is becoming the R series. The new T420 no longer uses the ultrabay slim bay (9.5 mm)and instead uses the ~ 12 mm high optical drive. It seems that overall thickness has not changed much, but now the base is thicker than before. Since the T400, lenovo have been gradually making the T series thicker. I understand it's somewhat necessary to fit in all the ports that people want, but the change from the 9.5 mm optical drive in this new generation is disappointing, because it signifies an increase in the thickness of the base.

 

Exactly my thoughts about T410 becoming into R series - lack of roll cage, cheaper price, retaining constant thickness. BUT, its not R, its still called T
T4x0s might become the "true" T laptop as the best T in house tho.
Well, I dont care, as long as price, features and quality are good.
Pitty that current T410 isnt exactly stellar tho.

 

"T410 becoming into R series" "cheaper price" nah, T price!

actually the T410s does have the "feel" of the older T4x models. good intention, so-so execution...

 

Seriously, veer...the R series did have the rollcage - at least my R400 does and I am sure your former R400 did too!

 

I don't think the T series is turning into the R series. I think the T series is evolving into something that really competes with Dell and HP. I personally would not pay 300+ or more for the ThinkPad over a Dell/HP despite it being my favourite. I just could not pay that much! Same reason why I switched back from the Mac.

Some features will just have to go, IBM pricing should be a thing of the past in my opinion.

I don't really care over the thickness of the unit, as long as it has the ports I need, a CD drive, a good HD, and feels solid then as long as it's not massively big then I don't mind!

I think the cheaper price is really going to do something for the sales. I saw on ebay the SL500 for 279GBP! Brand new! And the direct sales all the prices are extremely good and undercut the competition. Keep this up Lenovo!

The fundamental thing I hope Lenovo is doing is a) improving overall quality, whether that's with new technology or the same. For example, no screen roll cage; if it still is as strong if not stronger then that's fine. And b) keep the price good. Simple!

 

You probably never owned a R 15 inch or 15.4 inch thinkpad before. You shouldn't compare your R400 (which had the screen rollcage) to the T400, because it was basically a T400 with slightly larger rollcage and base chassis.

I was reading on 51nb.com, the R400 motherboard and screen can be directly transferred to a T400 casing and rollcage. So essentially Lenovo offered a T400 with more materials and offered them at a discount to the T400, not the smartest business idea (but good for consumers like us).

 

Youre right, I never owned R500
But what do you mean by that?
Edit: Ok, I got it, R500 vs R400 where R400 was basically thicker T400 whereas R500 was entirely different machine on its own, sort of.

R500 didnt have top roll cage, something that was considered by many a distinctive feature of R500 as compared to more expensive T series.
T410 didnt have roll cage either, thus making me and perhaps others too to make comparisons to R series due to lack of higher end feature-the roll cage.

I know that R400 has roll cage, thats not what I implied in my post.
T410 has become considerably cheaper and looks like T420 will be even more cheaper at its starting price, coming real close to ex-R series, no L-series.

 

@ veer...I have seen and handled the T400 and T410 - so, in a sense, I agree with you. I think the R400 is a excellent machine (assuming one is lucky!) and was better than the T400 (not so much perhaps - in fact I had a difficult time distinguishing between the two at first glance) and the T410 that I handled. (Disclaimer: Obviously, I am biased).

On another note, personally, I think the X201 (and maybe the refresh of the model with SB) is the best machine in the ThinkPad line up at the moment. In fact, I think the X201 may be a better machine - in many ways - as compared to its newest iteration.

 

Which current ThinkPad has the full magnesium roll cage treatment?

 

none, the last one to have one was the T400/T500/W500/R400, etc. All the current T/W thinkpads only have the bottom internal Mg rollcage.

 

What about the X series?

 

that is not a rollcage, but rather a magnesium chassis.

 

Just my humble two cents...

I agree with everyone that said the R-series became too close to the T-series. Pretty much every option on the T-Series was available on the R-series, except for the roll cage (only on some models, on some the R had it) and weight/thickness.

I think Lenovo could do a good job looking at Dell's Vostro line, which targets entry-level business users, but I think they could do it one better. While some will disagree with me, I think the following features could be removed from the T-Series to make the L-series:

Ultrabay - a modest business user will probably never use the features that having an Ultrabay affords. Stick with an optical drive only.
Roll cage - Build a reinforced ABS or Lexan-plastic chassis, it should be enough for most users. Skip the magnesium and/or carbon-fiber.
No optional fingerprint reader - If you want this, step up to the T-Series.
No Firewire - The entry-level business user will probably only use USB.
ThinkLight - Nice, but on the L-series, an added cost; I'd do away with it.
Discrete/switchable graphics - This is probably the most controversial for people. I'd say however, that Core i-Series (both Nehalem and Sandy-Bridge) have integrated graphics good enough for the L-Series' core market of people; it can do hardware-accelerated Flash and video decoding, and is light-years ahead of Intel's earlier integrated graphics. If you want discrete, then the ThinkPad T-series is for you.

Things Lenovo should not take away from the L-Series (to paraphrase Subaru, the "things that make a ThinkPad a ThinkPad"):

Quality display-hinges: These should be best-in-class.
Keyboard/Trackpoint quality: See display hinges.
Solid chassis: Just because there is no roll cage doesn't mean the chassis can't be well-structured in its use of plastics.
Anti-glare display: ThinkPads are business machines. Keep them that way. I'd also prefer them to stay 16:10, but that's a wish I might not get.

The best analogy I can think of is (forgive me) of a car I once owned, the Acura Integra. You could get the high-end Integra GS-R or Type-R with all of the options and have a super-fun car. But, you could also get the RS-version, which cut out a number of frills, but was still an enjoyable driving experience, and a solidly-built car. The same could be done to differentiate the L and the T-series.

 

Good points Lone Wolf.

I would also like the shinny screens to be removed from the business line as a standard practice. And for me the quality display hinges, keyboard quality and the solid chassis are a must. 16x10 would be nice, but I also think it unlikely to revert to that screen size.

I was looking at a T42p the other day and was surprised/re-reminded how nicely IBM used to make the T thinkpads.

 

So, what's the protection for the screen? Or, is there none? I - perhaps mistakenly - always thought the X200/201 had some sort of a screen protection (more so because of their ultra portability).

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I would just add the screen latch too! I would also say the chasis should be the SL400 style?

 

I absolutely hate the slim rectangle button and led on the side, I just hate the design of it.

Also I think that the L series is aim to be replace the desktop, thus that why they didn't add the latch.

 

I haven't played enough with the SL400, but I do know that some R and T-Series ThinkPad owners have found the SL-series to be somewhat chintzy in feel.

I would be more tempted to use the outward appearance of the R-Series, built on a plastic-only mold. Either ABS or Lexan might be able to do the job, but my engineering skills are amateur, not pro.

I'm a fan of having latches on a screen myself, though (in comparison) Dell has done a decent job with their Vostro 1520 of having a non-latching case as well.

 

SL series was an attempt by Lenovo to really cut down on manufacturing cost and deliver a laptop to the customer at an lower price point (and give Lenovo a slightly higher profit return).

If the SL or L series don't have an internal rollcage, then usually the palmrest and the keyboard bezel has to be in one piece to increase structural integrity.

 

For screen latches, it really depends on the notebook. My Latitude 13 doesn't have a latch and it's my first notebook without one, and I have no qualms about it.

To think of it, Dell never separated the palmrest and the keyboard bezel, it's always been one whole piece, and some models the power button/control center is easily pried off with a flathead.

 

Nicely put!

 

I wonder, which one will have better build quality.
Lenovo L420 or HP probook 6460b.

 

Probook should have the slight advantage in terms of quality.

 

I don't know about it. I have seen an L series in person and it looked fine. Didn't seem as thick as I thought it was.