Linux General Questions Thread

Hello all:

I have alot to ask but I will try to keep this as short as I can. I am buying a laptop in April/May (might wait for Santa Rosa though). I am almost for sure going with an HP Pavilion dv6000t with t5600 processor (unles I wait for Santa Rosa) and 2 gigs of RAM. I am still planning on using Vista Home Premium but I am one to try new things and I definitely want to give a linux distro or two a shot.

I am brand new to linux but have been checking out a few distros and trying to see what is right for me. I basically want an OS that is pretty easy to install and use, since I am new to all of this. One that I don't need to tamper too much with is a big plus. I also like the 3D desktop features of Beryl. With those needs in mind I came up with these distros:

Kubuntu
Ubuntu
Linux Mint (not sure if it runs beryl, but it is supposed to be very easy to use and have great hardware support and everything works essentially right after install)
Mandriva
Sabayon (I like that it comes with Beryl already and comes with all the apps and functionality right after install)

I originally started pretty set on Ubuntu or Kubuntu, especially with the highly touted 7.04 right around the corner, but I was lured in by the ease of use of mint, and subsequently the same for Sabayon. Any background on these distros would be great to start me on my way. Thanks in advance for all of your help, as I am sure I will need alot of it throughout this process.

I will start with these questions for now though . Sorry about the length.

Dave

 

Ubuntu is the answer my friend, by far the easiest linux to install, and has great support.

 

Pardus is easier.

Sabayon looks very interesting, I'm going to give it a try over the next month. It's probably your best bet for ease of Beryl configuration, though the upcoming Ubuntu release is likely to make it nearly as simple. Alternatively for eye candy you might look at Enlightenment DR17.

I'm partial to Xfce, so like Kwort and Zenwalk. Speed and usability rules.

Linux Mint and Pardus are probably the most off the CD usable distros with media capabilities and such. Pardus has a leg up in boot time, though, and I much prefer the graphical package manager front end. Pardus' configuration center is also very nice. I'm typing this post in Pardus right now.

 

I'd recommend waiting till next month for Ubuntu 7.04. It is amazingly easy to use even in beta state, and installing beryl is as simple as a one line command. The only downside that I can find so far is that media is a little rocky in the beta, and I still can't get DVDs to play.

 

A user new to Linux would probably not benefit from Sabayon off the boot. It's a Gentoo deriviative, and as such, involves learning portage. Portage in itself isn't very hard, but things like USE flags can be confusing for new Linux users.

Sabayon is for intermediate users who want a source based distro without wasting the days installing a fully fledged Gentoo setup.

I would recommend Ubuntu, but of course I'm biased. Not only for it's ease of use, but because of the fantastic community it has behind it. http://www.ubuntuforums.org would have 99% of the answers to any questions that you may have whilst beginning with Linux.

 

This was one of the things I liked about Sabayon. All of the media: mp3's, cd's, and even watching and ripping DVD's supposedly work right after install. I am afraid that I will struggle to get all of these things working in Ubuntu so that is one reason why Sabayon seemed very attractive to me.

Right now it is between Sabayon and Ubuntu. As I stated above I am worried about being able to get everything working in Ubuntu. Is getting things working as easy as it is said to be in Ubuntu, even for someone who has no Linux experience at all and wouldnt really call myself a computer guru. How about installing DVD ripping programs and such?

A couple of other general questions. I read the Kubuntu vs. Ubuntu thread and gathered that basically the difference between KDE and GNOME is that the interface is a bit different and they run completely different programs. Which has the better programs and perhaps easier to use file manager (read about Dolphin, when is that coming out?).

 

You can run any program under either desktop environment. So they aren't exclusive. What you want to do is pick the one that has most applications in it natively that you want to run (which is KDE for me, with Konqueror beating the snot out of nautilus for file management, as well as network transparency, k3b being the best media burning application anywhere, etc. but to each his own) and go with that.

You should be able to get everything working under Ubuntu with minimal fuss. I have it all working, just a few options changed, use the GUI to download a few other packages. Same as it is on any other US-based distro.

 

Is there a list of the applications that each has to help me decide or a place that I can find that info?

Also, a question about dual booting. I have just assumed to this point that that means you can just choose between Vista and a Linux distro when you turn on your computer? Just making sure I am interpreting this correctly.

 

Not really. It's more of a preference thing. KDE is more familiar to Windows users, and Gnome tends to be more Mac-like, in general usage. It doesn't take too much disk space, you can even install both and switch between them to see which one you like better.

As for dual-booting, you have that spot-on. It'll just give you a nice little menu where you can select a few Linux options (safe mode, etc.), and Windows.

 

Ok, cool. So installing both would mean more partitions correct? Which leads me to a few partitions questions if you guys don't mind .

I have never made partitions and know little about them, but I realize they are kind of to seperate different parts of your hard disk. The ideal set up for me would probably be having a good-sized windows partition, a linux partition, and hopefully a huge chunk for media and such that can be read by both OS's. Is this possible? If I installed both Kubuntu and Ubuntu would I have to make another partition and swap partition and such. Are partitions permenant or can they be deleted/switched around? If for some reason (hopefully not) I fail with the whole linux thing will I be able to restore my hard drive to just Windows or am I stuck with it how it is (or getting rid of windows and going full-time Linux )?

What do people think of Ubuntu Ultimate 1.3? Just a bloated version of Edgy or actually worth looking into? It obviously has alot of apps I would never use but some I might. Worth looking or no? Sorry for all of the questions and thanks alot for all of your help.

 

Partitioning is daunting to new users, but once you do it a couple of times, it becomes really seamless and easy. What you want to do is download the GParted LiveCD. I would normally recommend using the built in Ubuntu offering, but it has changed for Ubuntu 7.04 (which I still recommend you wait for) that is just not as robust and a little more intimidating if you ask me. What you'll do from there is shrink your Windows partition (resize it) to whatever size you want. Then you'll want to create your media partition. Make it whatever size you see fit (making sure to leave space for your Linux partition), and format it as FAT32. Both Linux and Windows will be able to read and write to a FAT32 partition. The rest of the space you should just leave blank and unformatted.

When you go to install a distribution, it should have an option to "Install in the largest continuous free space." This is what Ubuntu does, and pretty much any distribution should have a similar option. Advanced users like to set their partitions up manually, and you may get to this point sometime, but for a new user, this is the simplest option.

As for installing Ubuntu and Kubuntu together, you won't need extra partitions. They will use the same system files and folders, just install their respective GUIs and applications (and also necessary system files). When you boot up the computer, you will have an option called "Sessions," where you can choose between KDE and Gnome. If you install Ubuntu first, simply open a terminal and type "sudo apt-get install kubuntu desktop" and if you install Kubuntu first, open a terminal and type "sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop." You'll be all set after that.

 

Just use Automatix2 to install all your codecs and flash 9 beta and such. It really does an excellent job, though the mirrors are a little slow now and then. Or you can just use Linux Mint which is Ubuntu with all the proprietary stuff and a more average theme.

I still say don't rule out Pardus, I've been shocked by it so far.

 

Great advice and info, thanks alot. I have heard that FAT32 can become pretty fragmented over time. Is this a problem or something that won't matter too much. I should just be able to run a defragger or something, right?

I also am not sure about if you said the partitions are permanent or not? If I install both Kubuntu and Ubuntu and then pick the one I like better, can I uninstall the other and then maybe try out another distro without too much hassle? Thanks for all of your help.

Thanks, I will keep Pardus in mind for sure.

 

Partitions are permanent. With Kubuntu and Ubuntu, you can install them both on the same system. It's better that way, really. You just install, say, Ubuntu, then once that's done, type in "sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop", and when you log in you can choose between Kubuntu and Ubuntu. Much easier than having multiple partitions. If you don't like one, you just "sudo apt-get autoremove kubuntu-desktop", and it should all disappear (I think). Linux isn't nearly the "ME TAKE OVER SYSTEM NOW!" OS that Windows is, you don't need to segregate it nearly as much.

 

Alright well thanks for everyones help. It looks like I will be going with the Ubuntu Kubuntu combo once I get my lappy and 7.04 is released. Can't wait. Will my settings carry over from Ubuntu to Kubuntu or will i basically have 2 independent operating systems with different native apps?

Also, any idea when Beryl will be released into a stable state and out of beta? How much does it bog down your system, and is it really buggy or actually tolerable.

Thanks.

 

You'll have one operating system with two different looks. Settings for programs will be the same no matter what Desktop Environment you run.

Beryl will become stable when it is. Could be a couple of years away.

And, it doesn't slow down my machine in any way, except battery life. Havent had any stability problems with the Ubuntu repo version either.

 

Awesome, I am really looking forward to jumping into the Linux world. Can't wait to get that laptop, but now I am almost leading more to waiting until May when Santa Rosa will be released along with HP Laptop Updates. Will the new processing platform cause for compatability issues or does processor type really matter a whole lot in terms of how smoothly it works with Linux or any OS for that matter.

The notebook I am looking at has the following specs:

- Intel Centrino Duo mobile technology featuring Intel Core 2 Duo processor T5600; 1.83GHz
- Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium
- 2048MB DDR2 SDRAM
- NVIDIA GeForce GO 7400 with discrete 128MB
- 160GB (5400RPM) SATA Hard Drive
- LightScribe Super Multi 8x DVD+/-R/RW with Double Layer Support
- 15.4" WXGA High-Definition BrightView Widescreen (1280x800) Display
- Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG Network Connection
- 5-in-1 integrated Digital Media Reader
- HP Imprint Finish & HP Pavilion WebCam with Integrated Microphone
- HP Expresscard TV Tuner

I have been seeing this setup going for between $1250 and $1350. I know this might not be the right forum but do you guys think that a smilar setup would go for a similar amount of money with Santa Rosa? I ask because I don't want to pay much more than this but am thinking since Santa Rosa is so close I might as well wait, as much as I like this system and its price. Thanks.

 

Well, also keep in mind that HP will not honour their warranty if you put Linux on your machine.

I can't say for sure how much Santa Rosa will cost, but I can't see it adding more than 10% to the price of the machine, at the most.

 

Yeah, the HP warranty thing has been one thing that is bothering me. I just love the design of that notebook and think it is really one of the better deals around in terms of everything you get, so I think I am just going to end up risking it and going with an HP. Hopefully nothing goes wrong.

 

If you decide to wait for Santa Rosa, odds are that Dell will have new laptops out by that time, and will most likely be offering Linux on them. The plan is intended to take hold within the next few months, about the time Santa Rosa is released. I would hope that the new Dell notebooks would look better than the current line, so you may want to look out for that.

 

If something does happen, format and load Windows on it before sending it in.

 

It looks like I will have a fun time trying to set up a dual boot with Vista and Ubuntu. It seems that alot of people on the Ubuntu forums have had trouble with it. Do you think that this guide will work even if Vista comes pre-installed on the machine and I do not install it myself?

http://apcmag.com/5046/how_to_dual_boot_vista_with_linux_vista_installed_first

 

Dual booting Ubuntu and Vista was no problem for me. Nor Pardus and Vista. Nor Kwort and Vista. You have grub chainload Vista just like every other version.

 

Not so sure what chainloading is but that is reassuring. Should I be ok with that guide? My set up will come with Vista preinstalled, so I will have to shrink its partition to make room for Linux, is this what you did or did you clean install Vista and start from scratch with a smaller partition.

If I just shrink Vista's partition using the included tool in Vista to make room for Linux, will I still be able to create a media partition readable and writable by both after I install Linux? Just making sure.

 

I don't have Vista nor do I plan to get it, but it doesn't matter; dual-booting doesn't change just because it's M$'s latest version. Chainloading refers to the command you put in GRUB's menu.lst file that will tell GRUB to give up control to Windows' boot loader (puts it after itself in a chain).

It doesn't matter how you shrink your existing partition - just give Linux at least 3-4GB space. With most harddrives today you should be able to give it at least 16GB or so. You don't need a clean install of Vista for any other reason than you just wanting a clean install (if your PC came with a ton of bloatware, for example).

Finally, Linux can read and write to FAT32 partitions through modules included in the kernel. It can also read and write to NTFS partitions through ntfs-3g. I've been using it for over a year without any problems whatsoever. I actually boot XP Pro through VMWare at work - only because I have to for our ancient Exchange server - and share my NTFS partition back to XP through VMtools so that both OSs can read/write to it at the same time and I can also use the drive whenever I'm forced to boot XP natively (only for a couple games). Since I discovered ntfs-3g, I never use FAT32 partitions anymore - they're just too wasteful.

 

Awesome, I may consider ntfs-3g. Once having that driver installed I could pretty much just read and write to my windows partition as normal, correct? I think this would be a better option than a big FAT32 partition to share files between the two OS's because of the 4gb size limit and such of FAT32.

 

Yes. You have to shut down Windows to get ntfs-3g to work, though. You can't hibernate, because that doesn't cleanly unmount the filesystem. But overall, it is a much better solution than fat32, since Windows has such limited support for alternate filesystems.

 

It seems like Feisty has an easy to configure option to write to NTFS partitions? Possibly eliminating the need for ntfs-3g or making it really easy to get it running or something? That seems like a very good option.

 

No. You still need ntfs-3g, but it's part of the distribution. Just "apt-get install ntfs-3g" and it'll install fuse and ntfs-3g. Then you just change your /etc/fstab file from any place where it says "ntfs" to say "ntfs-3g" and you're off and running.

 

he totally doesn't know what that means, but you're right.

when you get to the point of needing to know how to do this, post a question and we'll get you going on the right track.

 

Haha, yeah, not 100% on the lingo in the second half of Pitabred's post but I got the first part . Thanks for all of your help, I will let you guys know when the time comes for the help . Plus rep to all of you good fellows.

Do you guys happen to know if notebooks released with Santa Rosa are going to have the new GeForce 8 series video cards in them as well? I know video card drivers can sometimes be a sticky situation in Linux so just wondering if this will cause problems. Thanks.

 

They might. They depend on the different manufacturers though. Santa Rosa will DEFINITELY ship with the Intel G3000 graphics on it (or whatever the chip number thing is) on machines with integrated graphics, but as for dedicated cards, that's up in the air as to who designs what. Ask Asus/Acer/Compal/Dell/HP/whoever for a better idea of what they're planning

 

Yes, they will be releasing GeForce 8 mobile chips at the same time as Santa Rosa. I wouldn't worry about the drivers for Nvidia chips - they have been really good about releasing drivers for both 32-bit and 64-bit Linux. I'm fairly sure that Nvidia releases new driver versions for Linux at about the same time as their Windows versions. However, I only use Windows in VMWare for Outlook at work anymore - our Exchange server is too ancient for Evolution to work with it - so I can't really say that for sure. Anyway, they do support Linux releases well.

 

I think Kubuntu is different. I was never able to mount my NTFS partition (or even find it for that matter) with Kubuntu Feisty, but Ubuntu Feisty will mount it immediately with no setup required. At least, this is the case with Herd 5 and beta.

 

That reminds me. With a C2D system, should I opt for the 32-bit or 64-bit OS system. I know 64-bit has better performance and will be the way of the future but are there difficulties with this set up right now while everything has not yet been switched over? Will 64-bit just be more of a hassle or should I be ok with 64-bit in Linux.

I have heard of 64-bit Vista having difficulties and problems so they are just putting the 32-bit versions in everything that is being sold currently.

Hmm, definitely something to take into account. I think I will just keep most of my HD NTFS so Vista doesn't give me troubles and then just use NTFS-3G and I don't have to deal with the downsides of FAT32. I was hoping to test Kubuntu and Ubuntu to see which I liked best but this may make a tough decision much easier

 

Some of the media doesn't work quite right under 64bit. I haven't gotten flash to work, but I hear it does work. And WMV9 doesn't work, but most other codecs do. As far as hardware, everything that works natively in 32bit under Linux works natively under 64bit. We've got a bit of an edge in that department. And 3D acceleration works quite well, too. If you have to use ndiswrapper for your wireless, that probably won't work well. And as for Kubuntu and Ubuntu... you can install both, and just switch when logging in. Nothing to it

 

Couple of points:

I think the recent Linux + HP thing is being blown a little out of proportion. They're not going to invalidate the warranty because you are using Linux, but they won't support you while you have it on there.

So don't tell them unless it's relevant. A number of tech support people are just looking for the easy-out, so having an 'unsupported operating system' sounds like a good reason for them. If its not relevant to whatever problem your having, don't sweat it and don't tell them. Especially if you are going to dual boot. Just remember than if you call, they might want you to break out the restore CD's.

Also, definitely stick with NVidia. Although both NVidia and ATI dragged their feet some supporting AIGLX, at least NVidia does now... my x1600 equiped nc8430 is still out in the cold on that one.

 

What is the difference between AIGLX and XGL anyway? I know these two have to do with desktop eyecandy (maybe something to do with Beryl too), but what are they exactly and what do they do? Do I need one or both of these to run Beryl? Do they give some of the affects of Beryl but without Beryl? Which is better, etc?

 

This link provides instructions for installing AIGLX and Beryl on Ubuntu Edgy (6.10):

http://wiki.beryl-project.org/index.php/Install/Ubuntu/Edgy/AiGLX

 

The problem with 64 bit at the moment is mostly in proprietary software. I haven't worked with 64 bit at all yet, but I think to get things like Flash running on a 64 bit system, you have to compile your browser as 32 bit. I'm not sure what you have to do in order to get Firefox to do so. I think Realplayer would have similar issues. I'm going to play with 64 bit soon, but honestly, there's no real need yet and probably not worth the trouble. Of course I can't say that decisively since I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty confident

ATI isn't horrible, they have a nice stable driver these days. It's just slow for 3D acceleration, and of course doesn't support AIGLX yet. I'm still hoping this will improve since the AMD acquisition, but I'm not holding my breath.

The integrated Intel chips actually have pretty good support, and in a mostly open fashion. Of course 3D acceleration will never be great with the current state of integrated graphics, and even normal 2D graphical interfaces may feel a little more sluggish than with a discrete graphics chip with it's own dedicated VRAM.

 

You can actually install the 32bit compatibility libraries, and then use the nswrapper, which is a plugin wrapper, so you can still have your 64bit browser with 32bit plugins. At least, that's what my research has said... I haven't tried it myself...

 

Interesting. I think my sefest bet for now is stick with 32-bit. See how that goes. I am not sure but I don't think 64-bit performance is that much of an improvement to gawk over yet. At least not until compatability issues are squared away.

I have to thank all of you guys for your tremendous help. This thread has been a great help to me and I'm sure it would be for any other Windows users looking to try Linux. Sorry if it seems like I have tons of questions. I just want to learn about Linux and am very interested so I have to start somewhere I guess. Haha.

Thank you all for putting up with me. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.

 

Does Ubuntu and or Kubuntu come with a dacking program or is there a good Linux docking program that is easy to download and use? I know it is mostly personal preference but do you guys find the need for a dock in Ubuntu or is the menu set up just that good that no dock is necessary.

 

well, you can add application launchers to the panels... like Windows' QuickLaunch thingy.

Or, you could try gdesklets... it's in the repos. Basically desktop eyecandy stuff, but there's a launcher bar called StarterBar. unfortunately it's not exactly a drag-n-drop type thing, you'll have to manually add whatever shortcuts you want. it also doesn't work like the mac dock where you can access already running programs.

 

Hey guys,

Since I am going to be trying out both Kubuntu and Ubuntu on the same partition I had a couple of quick questions.

My ideal set up looks like this except I am leaning towards one big windows partition instead of an NTFs and shared FAT32 since I can just use NTFS-3G.



I will be able to choose which OS to log into upon boot, whether it is Ubuntu, Kubuntu or Vista. I like the idea of the Ubuntu /home partition so if i ever have to reinstall (and I hear this is the better option for updates anyway) I don't have to lose my Linux settings and such. My question was if when I logged into Kubuntu if I would still have all of those Ubuntu settings accessible and it would remember my settings so essentially I was only using a different desktop environment and wouldnt have to get everything set up on two different linux OS's?

 

you don't even need to install ubuntu and kubuntu from separate CDs...

you can have both the GNOME and KDE environments installed and you simply switch between the two at login.

once you install one, open the Synaptic Package Manager System>Administration>Synaptic, then do a search for "kubuntu-desktop" or "ubuntu-desktop", depending on which you installed first. the *-desktop packages are known as "metapackages" and they basically install all of the necessary stuff for the relevant desktop environments.

 

How do you do switch between them at login?

 

at the login prompt, there is an option called "Sessions" just click that, the rest should be self-explanatory.

 

I realize it is that easy to intstall both environments but I am wondering more if both environments will remember my settings and preferences when I log into the other. Example, I will probably install Ubunu first, get everything up and running, play around for a while. Then I will install the KDE environment, reboot, and log into the KDE session. While logged into KDE, will it "know/remember" everything I did in the GNOME environmet, have all the same programs installed, etc. Or will it be like having two different OS's?

Also, what kind of files are stored in the /home partition. How useful is it to have one of these? Hopefully I will be using Linux quite a bit, so how big should I make the actual Linux Partition, the /home parition, and the swap partition to ensure I don't run out of space, since it. would probably be a pretty big hassle to re-partition to give myself more space later.

 

If a program keeps its own configuration settings, they will be the same across either desktop environment. The same programs will be available, and work in the same way. The only things that will require you to set up again are the DE specific items, like power management, startup programs, etc.

Also, just an aside, but after you install KDE, you don't have to reboot.

The home partition stores all your documents, as well as program settings. A separate /home partition is useful because if you decide to switch to another distro somewhere down the track, you can keep all your program settings and documents intact, all ready for the next distro.

As for your partitioning scheme, I believe earlier in this thread are some great suggestions for how to set up your hard drive. On my 60GB hard drive, I have 10GB set aside for each distro I run, with 256MB of swap, (for my usage, this is enough, though it's prolly best to go with around 1GB) And a 20GB /home partition for all my common documents and preferred program settings.