Who wants a sexy, powerful, modern Linux notebook?

Hey everyone. I've been doing some thinking lately about my general unhappiness with notebooks in general - everything is extremes. Budget notebooks with no power, massive behemoths with no style, stylish notebooks with no substance, and very few that fall in the middle. The HP Envy recently caught my eye, being powerful, aesthetically pleasing, and built out of premium materials. Unfortunately, it was not only loaded with windows crapware, but had a horrible non ACPI-compliant BIOS and a number of performance and power issues in both Linux and fresh Windows distributions (not to mention lacking edge to edge glass, and backlit keys, minor niggles to be sure but at $2500... compromise on the little things shouldn't be an issue!)

Looking elsewhere I've not found much else. The MacBook Pro is expensive, and its core features are underpowered. Sony's Z is too expensive to be based on older hardware as well. The Alienware M15x is huge, thick and heavy, but has great components. The Asus G51j has great hardware and features, but built with a budget build quality, thicker and plastic-y, while still having some heat issues. The Asus U series are thin and aesthetically pleasing, but suffer from underpowered hardware. The Dell Studio XPS series are probably the best I've found (short of the envy), while the Adamo are top of the line in design and build, but woefully underpowered... The list goes on!

Of course, all of the above I've listed come with Windows installed, and laden with crapware (Well, except for the Mac). I've also turned my search to the Linux exclusive laptop manufacturers, wanting to support a Linux-based industry. Sadly I've found it is nearly universal that even the nicest Linux laptop OEM, have an underwhelming selection of hardware. System76 for instance, looks like an excellent, professional operation, but they just don't have say, a 15" laptop that's LED backlit, or anything with a backlit island-style keyboard, or a 13" laptop without Intel graphics, a multitouch trackpad, majority metal construction etc... Sadly, these laptops seem to envision what most think of Linux in the first place - older, clunky, underpowered etc. But it doesn't have to be that way!

Thus, I was wondering if maybe we, the notebook-seeking Linux community could get our ideas out there? Maybe there are others that feel the same way I do? Do you think that contacting one of these Linux system builders en masse, with a list of requested features in new laptop models would be a good idea? Let them know there's a market for "premium" Linux notebooks. We could branch out from Linux-only companies, to major OEMs that ship Linux on some models like Dell etc...

Lets show that Linux-users don't want to "settle" and that we want new, sleek, and powerful just as much as anyone else, and we want it linux powered?

 

As long as my box doesn't look like it's a "portable" from 1986, I don't care what it really looks like. Just out of curiosity, I looked up that Envy situation, and WOW.. What cluster f!@k that is.. Way to go HP.

 

Well, aesthetics in my mind come last, but other things that go with them like good design, weight, build quality, premium materials are important to me.

 

Totally, I can understand that. I don't take my laptop outside my house, so I don't care what it looks like. It's a great idea, but unfortunately the linux population is small to being with, and then finding people who care a great deal about how their linux notebook is built and looks is going to be an even smaller subset yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, but until those numbers climb it's a serious uphill battle.

 

I don't really see what the issue is here. The Envy 15 is one of the few high end notebooks that aren't very Linux friendly, but the rest usually are. Linux users like to have it their way, and that includes their own distro of choice. To have them ALL available for a single "Linux laptop" would be totally unfeasible. To have only one available would upset a bunch of Linux users.

Why not just pick up a good Windows notebook and install your Linux to your liking? The HP EliteBooks, for example, should run them very well. You can actually get them with FreeBSD preinstalled, if neither Windows nor Linux is your cup of tea.

 

Well, in general I'm not too happy with many of the so called "high end" notebooks as they tend to focus on one thing to the exclusion of everything else.

That said, if a perfect notebook arose and happened to have Windows on it, I'd buy it anyway and load Linux. However, I do like the idea of supporting a Linux system builder like System76 (or even Dell, if they had Ubuntu on the models I was interested in), to show that "Yes, Linux users are willing to buy from companies that support them. Sure, they may come with Ubuntu but I'm supporting the notion that people will buy a notebook with Linux on it, and also know that the hardware is going to be Linux compatible. For instance, if the Envy had a pre installed Linux option there's no way the BIOS clusterfrak would have occurred.

 

Could someone please direct me to a topic where all the benefits of using Linux are summarized? I just dont get why it hasnt been adapted? Its been around for ages. Is it just for software developers? Not mainstream??

So sad, and so true. Been having the same problem.
My eye caught the HP dv6t quad but I believe it has the same faulty BIOS which isnt compliant with Linux.

 

I believe system 76 provides the best linux based laptops. They have a nice 15 inch laptop with a G260. MY next notebook will be a system76 but waiting for the next generation of video cards.

 

Somebody wants the best off all worlds... for less.
Try used.

 

I don't mind paying for quality, but I don't like paying a lot for lackthereof. Also, I'm not sure why people seem to believe I'm asking for something unrealistic. I'm not asking for a 13" laptop with a GTX280 SLI that's 0.5 inches thick etc.. I want something that's reasonably powerful for the given footprint. The Envy 15 is the best example I can give - a Core i7 and 4830 1gb in a thin, well made package. More companies I think, should try to develop something like this, without cutting corners.

 

I'm very happy with the dell precision M6400 laptop. I loaded linux (debian) without any problem.
Sexy notebook, metal lid/chassis, RGBLED WUXGA screen, backlit keyboard, linux loaded without any problem; 4 SODIMM slots, 2 HDD slots.
Kickass.

 

I think the best we can hope for is that manufacturers offer a choice of windows or no OS by default. I mean, sell me the same laptop and subtract the windows tax. I've bought my last couple of rigs from powernotebooks.com because they offer customizable whitebooks with the no OS option.

You're right that outfits like system76 and zareason are just as overpriced as apple.

Anyway, I'd pick out the hardware that you want and look for a hot deal on it. You can always install linux on it and then paypal your favorite distro a few dollars to support them.

 

I think i understand you, big brands don't care about linux much. That's it. Not many ppl use linux for them to take big care about compatibility with linux. e.g. those EEEs subnotebooks - were supposed to be loaded with linux - and were - at the beginning - and look where it's now ...

As for me, i'm happy with my R61 thinkpad, after i bought 4gigs of ram (throw away the 1gig stick, bought 7200rpm fujitsu hdd and 9 cell battery. Voila, there i go....

 

It seems to me that the criteria you have in mind are all found in Apple's laptops, so searching the product lines of other manufacturers doesn't make much sense. Also, the MBP is not underpowered relative to the form-factor. It wouldn't be wise to put anything more powerful into such a thin package.

Honestly, the best notebooks for Linux are ThinkPads. They feature the best design, reliability, and durability... though some would say that they look boring.

 

Well, in my opinion Apple should not be the only company that offers a laptop with said features. There's no reason they should have a monopoly on them. I personally dislike Apple as a company due to their expense, walled garden philosophy, and general "The Apple Way or the Highway" attitude. I'd really prefer to purchase from someone else if at all possible, because I believe in supporting companies with business practices that I approve of, if possible.

That said, you don't feel that Apple is underpowered at the moment? In their 13" model they're using an integrated GeForce 9400 chipset, and a 9600 512mb in their high end model. They're also utilizing Core 2 Duo (i'm not sure what models, exactly since they don't seem to list them on the store display) exclusively The HP Envy has a dedicated new ATI 4330 512mb paired with a Core 2 Duo in their 13", and the power of a Core i7 820 + ATI 4830 1gb intheir 15" model.

Perhaps Apple's next refresh will have an Core i7 and a new graphics card, but at the moment it seems like old technology. Apple seems to "stick with" older stuff for longer, and often their graphics cards are underclocked and underperforming by default. I hope to see this change next iteration. I won't rule out a MBP, but it would be a begrudging purchase.

Honestly if system76 could build an exact copy of a MacBook Pro (theoretical updates with a Core i7, new graphics, RGBLED etc...) and put a light up stylized penguin/Tux on the front of it (possibly shaving off a couple hundred in "apple tax") I'd buy in an instant.

I will look into the ThinkPads and the Dell Precision line though. Last time I checked it was difficult to find one with good graphics and display, but maybe that changed.

Edit: Another frustration. Attempting to configure the Dell Studio XPS 13 with Linux, requires lower-end hardware? I don't have the options of the higher end processor, or the GTS 210 graphics card, amongst other changes. Why should this be? It isn't like Ubuntu will somehow reject a T9xxx Core 2 Duo and only run on a P8xxx? Sigh.

 

I agree with you in the sense that Apple doesn't have the best attitude when it comes to restricting their customers on how they can use their products, but technically nobody is being stopped from mass-producing unibody metal notebooks or chiclet-style keyboards. The problem is combining these features in light of the industrial design copyrights that Apple has in place for their products. Every company protects the design of their products from being replicated.

The problem is that these design features are not cheap to fabricate and so are usually found on high-end computers; HQ products, whatever they are, are obviously part of Apple's business philosophy. However, their policy towards restricting product usage has little to with it, considering that nobody has copyrights to these fabrication methods. The simple fact is that Apple occupies a special niche in this regard that other manufacturers are unable or unwilling to compete in.

Apple doesn't exactly cater to high-performance requirements. Moreover, their computer designs probably can't even handle more than what they currently have jammed in the chassis. Costs would also increase further as a result. Its clear that Apple often chooses to sacrifice certain things in favour of aesthetics, if they must.

Many ThinkPads have Radeon 4650 GPUs in them, but if you're looking for something better...

 

I think one of the big stumbling blocks for a major manufacturer is figuring out how they are going to provide support for another OS. I have heard horror stories regarding phone support for Ubuntu via Dell. Their support protocols, which are designed to deal quickly and efficiently with the common problems that plague windows users, are too inflexible to take on another OS. From their angle, why train and employ support staff for an OS that you didn't make any money on at the time of sale? If, on the other hand, you charge a bit more for an Ubuntu-equipped laptop to cover support costs, consumers are going to complain, "why are you charging me for something that is supposed to be open-source? Why would I pay as much for Linux when I could get that windows7 license and then install the distro of my choice for free?"

This brings me to my second point. Given the fact that you are going to have to create a budget for support, marketing a comparably-priced Linux notebook is going to be tough. Most folks that want Linux already know how to install it themselves. Others that may be curious will buy it and then opt to return it as it does not operate just like windows. This is essentially what happened with Asus when it offered the Xandros platform on its eee pc. They saw so many returns that they had to refurbish--essentially undercutting their own market--that they ran screaming from Linux, back to Microsoft. I think this scared the major manufacturers that were initially open to the idea of marketing Linux-based netbooks.

 

The demand of new laptop models with better component, and or, better built quality usually relates to the market response on the type of task they usually used with the computers.

Are they just plain simple folks who are just seeking to connect to the internet, browsing web, reading emails or just using their gears as multimedia device?
Are they gamers, who really need better spec-ed hardware such as dedicated GPU, fast speed CPU, as well as good sounding in built speakers?
Are they certain kind of professional individuals, who need to really carry their gears around to the worksite, or workplace, doing engineering work, which may in turn require better, and robustly built gear with the above mentioned high-spec-ed hardware as well as long outdoor running power configuration?

The final question, how many of these laptop/computers i mentioned above are Linux friendly especially when it comes to commercially available software, or organization provided common used programs?
On the hardware drivers, how many manufacturers/producers are willing to provide the correct drivers to the specific hardware for linux O.S? From my observation, Windows is usually the one to get the most updated drivers...

Lets say if there are Linux programs/softwares which may help to run some of the windows/mac programs, are they smooth and bug-free enough so that certain works made with this pairing method can be submitted in time?

All these factors add up... gives the answer to your question.

To date i have only come across a distro that is built with programs that is targeted to specific profession, that's CAELinux. Perhaps there are other more, such as medibuntu or something like that, which i have really no idea what kind of software are bundled that may really related to the medical studies/research field of profession. But how many of them are really popular? What's the size of demand?

Producing company/manufacturers plays a part as well.
For example, i mean just an assumption.
If there's such day, DELL intends to release some notebook configurations without O.S so that consumers can choose what they want base on what they use. Will there be correct drivers from the individual O.S that may make the gear run well without problem? How will their warranty package be? Hardware? Software? Or individuals/users ignorance/negligence?

 

Why not look into lesser-known manufacturers like sager/clevo or msi? I found myself a well built, high end, good looking machine (see sig).

 

Dell offers the Studio XPS 13 for $1k with Ubuntu preinstalled, it has pretty nice specs. Specs wise it is identical the MBP 13".

 

I think what you're seeing is the fact that everyone has different requirements when notebook shopping. Most of the OP's original needs are meaningless for me, as it seems he is looking for a gaming rig with a powerful video card with an edge to edge screen.

I run a Latitude E4300 with a Patriot SSD, and it does everything I need of it (lots of virtualization and office production work). I don't need a fast, power hungry video card. Everyone is different, and you can't please everyone as hard as you try.

 

This is completely true. I don't really blame laptop manufacturers for their struggles in the inclusion of Linux as an OS. There is little motivation for them to do so, especially when the FOSS community is fragmented and almost tribal. The only possibility of getting solid support is if the Linux community were to push one distribution as their "flag-ship" variant, but I don't see even this happening when the community can't even agree on what desktop environment or font to use. Linux users who want hardware manufacturers to support their favored OS don't realize that they can't get the whole pie (a well-supported and easily available OS) without compromising in return. In this sense FOSS advocates are ironically somewhat greedy, even relative to their capitalist counterparts.

I agree but I think manufacturers should change their target audience. They shouldn't appeal to the minority who want Linux and know about it. These people offer little in the way of profit since they're A) a minority and B) ready to buy any notebook (not a particular maker) if it features Linux-friendly hardware. Thus this group is not very promising to a business.

I believe the real group to target are the people who don't know about Linux and yet would have every reason to want it.

Sounds like those people should have read the "Linux is not Windows" article in my sig.

You essentially pointed out that what hardware is purchased depends mostly but not entirely on computing requirements of the user. Isn't this an obvious point?

Why should computer manufacturers be expected to pay for the cost of supporting a fragmented software ecosystem?

To rephrase your question: why do people feel the need to make individual creations in order to distance themselves from a group? Answer: it's a refusal to fully join the group in their common goal. It's the exact reason why there are so many distributions out there, many of which are irrelevant in the light of the modularity of the operating system (ex, Kubuntu). They merely complicate and pollute the FOSS ecosystem, making it all the more difficult for willing computer manufacturers to support them (and any maker would if a different OS helped sales).

The FOSS community needs to compromise and unite in order to exist as an economically feasible solution for hardware manufacturers. Anything less than that will always fail, leaving Linux as little more than a hobbyist OS in the PC market.

 

I'd kill for what the op is asking for with windows on it. No one seems to do it just right, at least not for my taste. Its always too much of this, not enough of that. For example, I was ready and willing to plop down for one of the new lenovo y550s with i7, untill I say the horrible resolution. If lenovo took that computer, added a better res screen, and backlit keys I'd be all set.

 

backlit keyboards are overrated.

 

I have one, it's called a macbook pro

 

Alas, the Linux variant doesn't come with the same options as the windows one. For instance, it doesn't allow the use of the faster processor with more cache, the P9xxx series, or the newer G210M graphics card. This is a key irritation for me. When major manufacturers support Linux, they don't do it on models that have the highest end hardware. There's no good reason why Ubuntu won't work with a newer, faster Nvidia card, or a faster processor!

As far as I can see it, there are 3 ways that OEMs/ODMs can support Linux.

1. Sell Linux installed laptops as your primary product. This is what companies like System76 do, and I applaud them for doing so. They find hardware that works with Linux, install Linux of one distro or another, and provide support to the end user. Unfortunately, they often offer a limited selection of underpowered laptops. If they'd like to sell to the public, they shouldn't just have clunky, older hardware for their entire line. I'd love to see these companies really stand out - commission some custom design work, put in the latest components and a unique chassis. Try to have everything replaceable from the processor to the graphics card, as Linux users love to tinker. Have a light up Tux on the lid! I can guarantee that the first Linux-only shop that creates a HP Envy like model, an Alienware-like model, a Studio XPS-like mode, an Adamo/Macbook air etc.. range of unique notebooks for different use, but with linux in mind, will make a killing from the Linux community, and help to grow the brand as well.

2. Big name OEMs like Dell, HP, and Lenovo are including linux as a secondary product. This is good, as it allows people to hear "linux" from a household name they trust. However, I'd like to see these companies not treat Linux like the ugly little brother of their windows models. As I mentioned above, don't neuter the Linux version of the exact same model compared to the "best" windows one. Don't save linux exclusively for your budget models, or budget variants of other models. Let people know that Linux belongs right along side, an equal choice.

3. Even if someone is selling Windows model notebooks, they can still do something to help the Linux community by ensuring that all the hardware within is compatible with the OS. Does it use a well documented intel wireless card, or some locked down broadcom? Is the card reader some sort of obscure thing? Is your BIOS ACPI compliant and all your sensors accurate? Make sure all your special hotkeys and hardware features are well documented and/or open source. If this is true, stick a "Hardware Linux Friendly" sticker on it somewhere. Companies should ensure people are buying their hardware for their hardware - it shouldn't rely on proprietary software to work! HP just lost over $2000 from me because (amongst a few cut corners, design wise) their BIOS made Linux use impossible.

There are things that notebook vendors of all sizes can do to help grow the brand and make a ton of money in the process.

 

The OEMs aren't going to go out of their way to cater to Linux until Linux is more mainstream. More and more non-computer people are starting to use it but most people still go "huh?" when you mention Linux.

 

I too am looking for a stylish, yet powerful laptop that can run Linux. I want something in the 15-16 inch range, an excellent display, lots of memory, SSD, backlit keyboard, powerful processor, decent battery, and NO WINDOWS KEY. For now it is just a dream. If the ASUS UL series had a better processor I would buy it in an instant, espeacially if they'd sell it to me with no hard drive and no OS.

 

Unfortunately Linux doesn't have the marketing budget of Windows and Apple. The Linux community needs to get creative and find a way to enlighten the masses. I am new to Linux and I come from a business oriented background and a marketing background, and to me it seems like the Linux community lacks any initiative in the marketing area. I would think a company like Asus or Lenovo would gladly build a Linux oriented machine if they could guarantee sales. Anyone know how many units a manufacturer needs to sell to turn a profit? I would think a preorder of 30-60% of that number would be enough to get a line going.

 

It is a vicious circle. There's no one company in charge of Linux, which is its greatest strength technologically, but also its greatest weakness organization-wise. Apple is a walled garden with an excellent marketing machine. Microsoft has more money than god and have become synonymous with "PC" for decades in the normal user space.

Mark Shuttleworth and Ubuntu is the closest thing to a push for a true desktop linux distro being marketed to "regular" people and word is slowly spreading that Linux isn't just the command line anymore. Unfortunately, you can't push too hard or else you're proselytizing and people reject it, and second is the applications.

If WINE magically had 99% compatibility with all the features turned on, for nearly all Windows programs or games, Linux would likely hold 50% of the marketshare. "It won't run/run well the programs I buy in the store or the I download" is the biggest problem, right next to "It won't work with my hardware". Unfortunately it is a catch 22, companies don't want to spend money on making sure Linux is compatible, until people are demanding linux. People won't demand linux until their stuff is compatible etc...

One reason I'd like to see a breakout, sexy, MacBookPro+Envy+Tux top quality Linux-loaded machine IS marketing. This is how Apple did it. They made hardware that people liked, that looked pretty, etc... and put their software on it. Linux can do the same thing! If someone wants to buy a TuxBookPro, well it comes with Linux (of course, you're welcome to install Windows or Mac on it too! That's one great thing about OUR option, its meant to be open!) . Conversely, someone wants to buy a laptop they're sure is going to work well with Linux, they'll want a TuxBookPro etc... see what I mean?

 

Honestly, if you want a Linux-friendly notebook that has some of the best design features, go for a ThinkPad. It may not look sexy (in fact they are rather boring), but it has many of the features you're look for.

Besides, placing aesthetics as a priority when looking for a notebook is frivolous. ThinkPads make their own impression on people simply by virtue of their legendary reputation.

 

I don't recall them being thin and light for the innards they possess. They're certainly well built, but I thought "black and bulky" was part of their design philosophy. They also seem to be very business focused, and value stability over the newest features. There are a few innovations (The 2 screen W700 model, T400 multitouch screen), but it often seems that having one new or advanced feature will mean that others are lacking