*** MSI 16L13 (Eurocom Tornado F5)/EVOC 16L-G-1080 15.6" Owner's Lounge ***

Yes, @Mr. Fox machine "Alien Killer II" (P870DM3) is an incredible machine that I think sets the high-water mark for desktop replacement laptops. It is has a 17" display, dual GTX-1080's and a i7-6700K. The enclosure is roomy enough for impressive cooling and OC'ing.

Nothing is for free - this is not a "waahfer thin" 3lb Ultrabook (LOL!). But I'm fairly certain you could not get a smaller system that would attain the same desktop performance with these same components in a smaller chassis. "Alien Killer II" is very impressive!

This seems like the hard part to me - patience and careful testing to attain optimal performance. I don't think there is any other way

 

haha thats nothing, this bottom panel is built like the other clevo's are, you know the ones where you start losing your screws over time. I'm not sure what causes it, if it's the screw or the plastic/magnesium but in a about a year, if you move this laptop around all day everyday, your screws will fall out, lol. Seen it too many times and know it way to well, to not see the signs. get some locktight. Then pray that lasts longer then the pegs your screwed into.

 

@woodzstack For someone who travels for work every week, would you say that this is not the best choice as a daily Work/Gaming laptop?

 

Ok, thanks for the answers!

 

No I would not, sorry. I wouldn't recommend it like that. However - it is actually much lighter then you would have guessed. I would actually recommend something more in the BGA lineup, like thier shark series. It's thin and might last longer from travel. The screws will still fall out mind you.
The battery on this won't last very long, the PSU is big/heavy, and it's as large as most 17" laptops almost. Its a bit flimsy and soft, like someone said earlier, it only has a few screws on the bottom whereas it needs more - its not really that it needs more, it's just there's nothing bracing it underneath except a single peg in the middle.

Now, if you travel and carry huge luggage and this can be taken very good care of, then maybe it's fine. But if your planning on pulling it out of a knapsac 100x a year and use it in coffee shops or airports - this is not for you, there is much better out there for you.

hope this helps, and is not too vague. We don;t know your needs entirely when you say travel, so I generalise on some basic stereotypes when I think "travelling"

 

Oh also, welcome to NBR by the way. Feel free to update your avatar and stay for a while !

 

Thanks

Member for 9 years and first post today... long overdue I think. I'll have to fix up my profile later.

As far as travel goes, I basically live out of a hotel and travel to a client site daily. I also carry a Lenovo T450 with me that I would be more likely to use in situations like Airports/Cafes.

So I guess it would really be moving it To/From office on a daily basis and Train/Plane across cities at the beginning and end of the week, if that makes sense. Currently I'm in Ottawa on the weekends and then working out of Montreal during the week.

I'm currently using a G551JM and it's held up for the past two years of the above pretty well. (Edit: I do realize there is a pretty big size difference between this and the Tornado, but I'm fine with that)

I was hoping to get a Kaby Lake/GTX 1070 machine. I was originally looking at the Sky MX5, but from speaking with Eurocom, it looks like Kaby Lake won't be available for another two weeks at least.

 

wait the two weeks, patience pays off. You travel all the time, so this is not like it's gonna set you back.

 

CyberpowerPC in the UK seems to have the 15" Fangbook 4 with 1070 back in stock - and I'm very tempted to pull the trigger. How was your experience with them and the laptop quality?

 

Has anyone else noticed that the back cover has a little hand hold so if you were carrying just the laptop, it feels kind of like a briefcase.


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How would you guys compare the Tornado F5 build quality to the Clevo P650RS-G -- that is if you have handled both =)

I feel pretty comfortable traveling with my P650 and I keep it in a neoprene zip case in my backpack to reduce that sliding friction. I'm a new owner - so I guess you really want to know how things are going a year from now.

Is the build quality of the 16L13 similar?

I also noticed that the 15" socketed Clevo P750DM2-G with a 1070 is comparable to the 16L13 but it weighs about 1lb more (and has about the same battery I think). Is there a build quality difference between the two?

With such high end components I am surprised that you can't get chassis upgrades - but I'm sure someone's thought of this

 

Believe it or not, I actually purchased the Tornado F5 for business purposes. However, the OC'er in me felt the need to fully explore the limits of this machine. I thought my videos and posts were pretty self explanatory that I was using the machine in "extreme" temps (which are actually normal temps to anyone that lives in New England). I've decided to limit my posting in this thread and I have created a new thread for OC results. For those that want to know more about OC'ing their F5 units, I'll see you in the MSI 16L13 Overclocker's Lounge.

 

Well, been following this thread and It's really growing fast. Glad to see the socketed machines rise. I think there has been a serious miscommunication in this thread that's it no more, cool it off people this is NBR we are a family afterall !!

But I'm really happy to see this little beast castrating the GTxxVR series of the MSI's own branded machines.

And 7700K in a 15" chassis and running GTX 1080 with a 5GHz Clock ?! I wish I could see it live & show these to DT closed mindsets who think NBs are not for gaming or OCing !! Thank you @Rage Set. No OC expert here but I really love to see the veteran OC experts posts , you can even learn a lot by just being an observer. Also these things do make the topics highly interesting, that what LGA and MXM machines are capable of than the mainstream JOKEBOOK KOOL-AID scene. Absolutely rampaging & crushing the MSI JOKEBOOKS, so happy to see this is happening...

Also as Mr. Fox Mentioned this is what makes the Enthusiasts always makes them to aim for the Apex & even watching the notebooks perform at DT levels we all should be really grateful for the ones who make it possible

There's so much happiness in seeing our friends happy too.
Peace.

Spoiler: I love this Machine no Offense but this what I think of..

P.S- The things that are really worth noting are the MSI's Retarded Anti-consumer practices. I mean they are shipping the same Z170 chipset but not 1080 compatibility I knew this since F5 first came, the Slot positioning ruins the upgradeabilty as a whole and now Bam the new chipset is out with 1080 *ONLY* WTF ?!

Also the multiple versions of the MSI cards is super mess, Not praising Clevos due to recent kick in the gut but look at the design of Pascal GPUs all of them are same and use the same space but the 15" Clevo can't take 1080, Due to TDP & Physics. But these nasty practices make me feel uneasy and angry taking us for granted and shoving proprietary crap down our throats. Plus the Unified HS is always a mess at HS precision and strongly opposes upgradeabilty. I hate that and I despise all this. Hope MSI changes with the mainstream GT stuff and future Iterations. MSI If you are seeing this you did a mistake once now these behind the screen practices ? Common. I've seen worst - The Alienware and now MSI is wanting to become one ? WTF STAPH it FFS

 

I can think of a valid reason for this - though I think it's a stretch. I imagine the engineers responsible for this laptop design must have tried popping in a 1080 with the same MXM 3.0x form factor. If they were confident that it worked reliably I imagine they would have kept the board the same and just started shipping out the updated model with the 1080s in it (maybe with a heatsink update).

The thing is, why go through the hassle of designing a new board unless you have to? Once you realize you have to then you have a secondary problem: if you don't make the 16L13's 1080 incompatible with the prior board version then people will buy the 1080 part and plug into the old board and blame MSI if it doesn't work. People can still buy MXM 3.0x 1080s and plug them into the old board - but MSI doesn't have to support this since it is not the 1080 board they provide for this model.

What I wonder is if the new board can use the 1070 - then MSI would only need to provide one board in general for this machine.

 

there is nothing new on the 1080 that the board needs specifically that I am aware of. I was told enough bold faced lies already, even just a week or two ago. We will see, I hate repeating other peoples lies, trusting in the good nature of the ones informing me of whats what, only to be made the fool of.

 

It kind of defeats the whole purpose of having an MXM standard if you purposely change the card so that you cannot upgrade previous generations. Isn't it enough for them that mobile GPU are outrageously expensive? I mean, a GTX 1070N already costs 2-4x more than the desktop counterpart... and now they want us to upgrade the MOBO too for a GPU upgrade? I have a feeling it will be cheaper to buy an entirely new laptop than to upgrade to Nvidia Volta GTX X070...

 

The 1080N in the Tornado F5 is a reused layout from the GT83VR. The layout is different than the 1070N because the memory chips are arranged differently on the GTX 1080 than the GTX 1070 (laptop). It also has an extra phase for what looks like the memory.

My guess is the engineering cost of moving a couple of standoff locations on the existing 16L13 motherboard was pennies compared to designing a new 1080 that could fit into the existing board. MSI already did this on their GT83VR as well: you cannot put 1080N's into a model that shipped with 1070N's or vice versa, it uses two different mainboards.

Eurocom has the upgrade price set to $1437US for the Tornado F5 GTX 1080 - provided you can sell your GTX 1070 for $750 its would basically cost $750 to upgrade. It seems kind of expensive, but if you only paid $1500 or so for the machine in the first place, then another $750 on top of that doesn't seem particularly expensive for a 15 inch GTX 1080 laptop to me.

 

I'm realy not sure what to buy. MSI or Alienware. I know the MSI is more powerfull for being socketed. But the chassis seems to be way less sturdy when reading al the info here. Also, gpu not upgradeable, i though that was the whole point of mxm (and maybe maintenance when sometimg dies internal).
For the Alienware, yes bga. But the 7820hk is there now i think and when the pasting is done properly those laptops perform too with gaming.
Since the MSI isn't upgradeable for the gpu and has the lesser chassis, why buy it over the Alienware? Remember: i need it to game, travel a lot and type good because i need to type a lot. Some oc'ing would be nice but i'm not in search for ultimate benchmarking, i lack those skills.

Little note about traveling: what matters to me is relative small size, not weight. I'll take 5kg no probs. I'm almost 100kg and sport 6 to 10 hours a week so carring 5 kg no probs. What i don't want is a laptop that is as big as an Toyota Aygo.

If they only would build the msi like a compact tank and make it upgradable, it would be a winner. How difficult can it be? A fragile underside is so not nessesary.
Same for clevo's, i saw and tried a 650 some weeks ago (bga model?). I did game well but the chassis, not for me. So the 16/13 needs to beet clevo here otherwise i go Alienware again. This time with good timing gpu wise, would serve me for years to come on full HD.

I'm going to think hard about what choise to make and cut the rope somewere this week.

 

Youre taking about the tornado f5 with a desktop CPU. You cant really compare BGA laptops, cause that's a whole another thing with many comparison points especially price, although the price here is unmatched. Kaby lake however BGA does bring a 3.8 mhz turbo speed? Something like that, but I'm not expert like the other guys on here.. im still a bit of a newbie. Alienware is practically open with the fact that their heatsink wasnt correctly positioned, as I was also trying to buy a 2nd AW but the overheating issues seemed like a big deal. Thats why you see so many on the Dell Outllet from returns. I honestly kind of wanted to wait for an AW fix cause it would be cheaper. Ofc you can repaste it, but nearly a complete teardown to repaste seems either proprietary designed, or poorly designed, which I just dont like. Also, its only a temporary fix. Keep in mind, I love my AW 15 from 2 years ago, as it has had 0 issues at all, and it was cheaper than anything else. They do price matching but only with HP, Lenovo, and ASUS? I believe, but thier student discount is only 2%...you can haggle.. theres a thread about it. Eurocom offers 10% student discount. Either way, The Eurocom Tornado is meant to compete with the Clevo Batman, and not AW really. Don't even consider the upgradability of the GPU please, as its really not even practical. The CPU? maybe. For the GPU, it'd be easier and cheaper to use the eGPU feature if youre at home. If you need a gtx 1080 for starbucks? Then maybe consider that... idk.

 

I know i can't compare a desktop 90 watt cpu against a bga cpu. The desktop rules.
The reason i didn't buy a Alienware yet is because off all the troubles they have, but it seems better now. The msi 16/13, i never knew it excisted till some weeks ago. I thought it was a clevo 775. Couln't find much about the msi till i found this threath.

I'm prefer to buy the msi but i need to be sure it won't break chassis whise. The laptop will live in a car, and carried around 24/7. About prices, Yes the msi is a bargain. Overthere.. But there are ways offcourse, woodzstack is helping me bigtime with this. But buying at eurocom directly, the msi will be no bargain for me.

Alienware has best prices here. Al other bga laptops like asus 752 and comparable MSI's are realy expensive like up to 4000 euro's if you want some good specs.

 

If you are going to use this laptop for traveling I wouldnt buy it. The screen is very flimsy that is makes me wonder if it will survive on a carry on for a airplane ride.

I am trying to use it for business but my business is a home business. If I carry it, it will be in the car right next to me in the front seat and nothing else.

 

Can someone make a video on this in comparison to another recent laptop? Would GT62VR screen flex be comparable?

 

Video of my idle temps at stock settings, auto fans, no delid, Eurocom paste job.

 

damn .... I'm getting 50-55C @ idle with -135MV undervolt with Autofans + Wood delid + repaste job, something wrong with my unit man ...
21C room temps too ....

55C CPU / 60 GPU idle
85-90 CPU / 80 GPU in game
Prime95 got to 95C after 5 mins ...

 

Okay, that makes more sense, thanks!

BTW - I am very confused about Pascal MXM GPU cards. From what I read (on wikipedia...) Clevo uses standard MXM cards for the 1060/1070/1080 (they even have a model that can take any of those), but who produces their cards? Could someone take a Clevo standard gtx-1080 MXM card and replace the gtx-1070 in the 16L13 with it?

Are these cards really standard or do they differ significantly for each laptop? That would be a drag...

 

Are your heatsinks making good contact? What kind of pastes did you guy use? If you're still getting those temps WITH a -135mv, then I suggest getting a cooler pad. I also wouldn't game with auto fans. If I undervolt around -100mv, my temps drop into the 20's at stock clocks with 18C ambient temp. This is your opportunity to get to know your machine well.

You really can't go off my results or anyone else's for that matter. Each unit is going to perform differently, even if they are configured the same.

 

Someone in the know suggested that a Clevo 1080 can be placed into a P750DM. I'm thinking about testing that out myself. At this point, nothing is really standard with Pascal in the notebook realm.

 

My P650RS-G also has a flimsy screen (seems to be the new normal), but is otherwise well built. I have traveled with it a few times and I'm optimistic it will hold up so long as I'm careful and lucky (I also put it in a neoprene slip cover).

Does the 16L13 have a similar build quality? I was kind of hoping it wasn't any worse... that would be a non-starter for me =(

 

I dont know if that other laptop is the same in build quality since I dont have one, but I have traveled with a small Clevo w230ss on a carry on. The screen is much worse than this F5 due to the small size, 13in. But I take care of it when ever it gets put into the travel backpack.

 

now to get the 1080N working in the M15X.... or M17X-R4, haha


okay seriously, here is a 1TB quick crystalmark bench for you guys using a new Samsung 960 Pro. Keep in mind my bios doesn;t actually yet support it...



So my conclusion is, these drivers are faster then they let on, in average. My IOPS though I was only really expecting about 40 or so there, because if I understand correctly without the proper controller support and bios support for NV RAID and all that, it shouldn't be running at max. Which is supposed to be like 60's. To compare, a 850 EVO or 850 PRO SSD would get between 35-40 on average.

So this drive, even at random small stuff loading, is at the very least 20-25% faster then the 850's were. This so far IOPS wise in tested faster then my 940 range too. Which gets me 41 in the 4K tests but only 1200 in Sequential.

 

Like we've all said, it;s got great build quality for a laptop, except if your planning on travelling, due in part of it's size and weight, it is rather flimsy or possibly a risk to easy break it. Leave it on a desk at home, this thing will be a very inexpensive laptop with great performance. Better then the money would suggest, it just comes at the cost of not being able to travel with it easily for different reasons then you'd not travel with other very large notebooks.

 

GPU crashes on bf1 constantly though fine on witcher 3, firestrike etc.

Might be a vram issue. Since those other programs uses less ram.

 

whats your ambient temps or the fan speed RPM wise ?

Fan speed on "AUTO" with the default software is called SILENT mode, and is about 500-1500RPM, Stock should be about 35-60C. Since windows 10 idle is like a barrel of monkeys playing quietly... CPU should go up and down and the temps should spike and slowly over time even heat up the system.
If you move the fans to even 2500RPM's it basically brings temps down a lot.

I see your using something other then the default/stock fan control software provided by Eurocom, what is it, I am unfamiliar with MSI honestly, and does all normal MSI software run on this laptop ?
Is there a large difference between that fan control software and the default ones from Eurocom/Clevo ?

Idle temps on AUTO/SILENT are usually higher then benches running when the fans are on. At least from the dozen F5's I've seen and touched and tested. I can actually show all the before and after pictures and temps too, but I would be showing other people's system's that i no longer possess in hand.

 

Where do I find the default eurocom fan control? I thought Msi dragon center was the only one that could control it.


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is that what it's called ? Looks like we're opposites, I didn't know I could use that, and you didn't know there was a different version stock.

here, let me link it.

http://downloads.eurocom.com/support/drivers/zip/384/384_Hotkey_W1064.zip

should look like this :

 

My ambient during that video was 18/19C. Not all of the MSI software works with this notebook, but most of it does. I only use DC to make color adjustments to the keyboard. I haven't tried Eurocom's software but if it is as bad as Clevo's, I'm staying away from it.

 

Can you describe the crash? Campaign or multiplayer? I'm trying to reproduce a particular type of crash (black screen, no TDR notification), with no luck. I loaded up Black Ops 3, which uses ~6-7 GB of VRAM, but I haven't been able to get it to crash.

 

Do you think the build quality of the Clevo P750DM2-G is any better? By that I mean the chassis - I have heard the cooling is not quite as good (as the heatsink is shared by CPU and GPU). It does weigh about 1lb more so maybe it is a little sturdier?

 

It's already installed but how do I get to the fan configure part?


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Sounds pretty normal to me except the idle temps.. I still get into the 90s easy with Prime95 de-lidded. I asked you before if you switched to Balanced mode to see if your idle temps went down but you never replied.

 

I think the crashes is caused by windows 10 and Nvidia drivers.
I was having tons of crashes on so many games. I downgraded to windows 8.1 pro and so far no crashes on a few games. Only world of warships and fallout 4 are the only ones I've played today.

I'll play some more games tomorrow when I done with my business stuff. So, I will stick with win 8 pro for the time being.

Believe me, I was about to put this laptop up for sale due to the crashes. Why have a laptop that cant play games. I can finally start retiring the Clevo w230ss, business laptop, and Clevo p370sm3, gaming laptop, into the F5.

 

It seems like I am getting vram errors.....

Also had a crash on Wargame Red Dragon

 

Images of my Tornado F5 R2

 

I will have my review of the Tornado F5 up in a day or so. I'm still running tests/benchmarks on it. I have yet to play any games on it. If you are interested in this version of the machine, my short answer is get it. I have a small beef with Eurocom though and their inability to follow through with what they say. If I had to make the purchase all over again, I would have waited until HIDevolution gets it in stock.

 

should be one of the apps in that package.

 

Still, very nice ! What was the issue with Eurocom, if you do not mind sharing with us ? What did they promise and forget/screw up ? They make mistakes all the time, just sort of have to roll with it. They provide a good service, if you know what your getting ahead of time, but yeah - I have said it before, best is to get a third party to buy from, to negotiate on your behalf and to make things simplier and make sure you get what you wanted.

 

Thanks. Who would have guessed that in a download called hot keys, there would be a whole bunch of useful programs.


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whattttt!!!??? Inside of the hot keys thing there's a program called Klm that actually lets me change leds of keyboard backlight without Msi dragon center. Never mind about steelseries engine 3 either because the keyboard is never detected with that. I've been stuck without this because Msi D.C. Would always change my undervolt settings. @Talon have you tried the hotkeys download from the eurocom downloads page? Why isn't this more clear and why wasn't this installed on here in the first place?! I'm so happy rn thanks

Also, there is a program called "silent option" that lets you set custom fan profiles from the hotkeys download folder as well.
@woodzstack


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Iam very love this machine but some seeder of msi at my country make me hate that msi company :/

 

So yeah, I think I am fairly confident to say my 1070n is broken.

Tested crysis and it also crashed. @woodzstack