Nvidia chip problem

We are not affected by the issue regarding the 8600M GT chips.

Read the two updates for further information.


Update 1:
We have tried to look at the failure rate compared to sold units, when it comes to GPU failures.
As we can't get specific numbers from other manufacturers we can only compare to our own statistics,
and based upon that the failure rate is not higher for our 8600M GT based models, than it was on our 6600Go and 7600Go models.
So far the failure rate on the 9xxx-series looks good. Up to this date we've had about 0,1% failure rate on the 9xxx-series.

Update 2:
To be more specific about the failure rate; when we look at the specific numbers, the failure rate is even higher on the 6600Go and 7600Go, than on the 8600M GT. So for us it has gotten better and better, with a lower failure rate on the new models.
Regarding the comment about ATI, we can only look at the notebook models we had en the past with ATI 9700 Pro and ATI x600. There were a significant failure rate on those also, so the numbers where not much different for ATI in the past compared to Nvidia.




Zepto

 

Easy fix. Take the really small heatsink out of the 6324/6224 and replace the tiny heatsink area with a decent amount of fins. Should keep it cool then. I know nVidia gave out TDP info to all manufacturers so manufacturers must know what sort of heat capacity is required and therefore should be able to come up with something.

Edit: Oh and Zepto should give customers the choice of returning their notebooks for this retrofit, or sending out a new heatsink assembly with instructions on how to perfrom the easy remedy.

 

Its not exactly a cooling issue but the gpu materials itself thats the problem. Adding more fins on the heatsink will help, but it will just mask the real problem. More of a band aid fix.

Assuming Zeptos are affected....

 

Yeah I know, but the more I read about it, a bandaid fix may be all I can hope for. If the GPU material is indeed the root cause, then if my notebook is affected, I would need a replacement motherboard, then do I really think I will get one that doesn't have a problem, or just one that is less likely to have a problem. Am I going to get a new notebook from the manufacturer as the only non G84/G86 is their new line up?-No chance. Adding a GOOD cooling system will kind of negate the problem. The reports are all stating it is an issue with overheating- simple keep it cool. No problems.

 

I think that keeping the GPU cooler is likely to delay the onset of problems and maybe many of the potentially affected GPUs will outlive the notebook they are in.

It is a little surprising that it has taken a year for this problem to surface. Hindsight may reveal that the evidence has been around for some time, but people didn't, or didn't want to, draw conclusions. Possibly like the side effects of some drugs.

John

 

It could also be that the newer drivers are what has brought this problem up, or at least made it visible. As newer drivers come out, these inevitably push the performance higher as the are more optimized for the GPU. This is likely to create more heat and I would guess that it is for this reason that they didn't spot it in the early days. I have tried the original drivers that came with my notebook, these give a much lower max temperature, but the performance isn't up to the standard I have come accustomed to with the newer drivers.

 

Suppose nVidia do acknowledge that the Zepto GPU's are effected. What do you think the likely resolution would be? Put the fan on higher faster? I already have my fan set to come on at 47C and go high at 55C (these are CPU temps as the fan in the 6324/6224 is controlled by CPU temp) making them come on any earlier would do jack.

 

This is an interesting dilemma and one where nVidia must be thinking hard about how to minimise the financial damages.

One option would be an automatic warranty extension for GPU problems so they get replaced if and when they go sick. Increasing the fan speed (and noise) or reducing the GPU performance won't go down well with the end users.

Zepto (and all the other manufacturers / assemblers) would need to provide a good repair service and send the bill to nVidia.

John

 

Hmm it says in this report http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20080703/tc_pcworld/147911 that there is new drivers to increase fan usage;

"To tackle the problem, the company is releasing a software driver that will cause system fans to start operating sooner and reduce the "thermal stress" on the chips. The driver has been provided to laptop makers directly, said Derek Perez, an Nvidia spokesman."

I hope Zepto will get these as my graphics card easily reaches 90 degrees while gaming and up to 96 degrees while gaming for a prolonged period of time, which seems normal for a 6625wd by hearing information from other people.

I was wondering what exactly the life of my graphics card would be running at these temperatures for 6+ hours a day, surely its shortened alot in comparison to say running at 75 degrees while gaming?

 

It doesn't really matter if Zepto release a driver that makes the fan come on earlier. I have set mine to come on at 47C and go full at 55C. All this does is keep it cooler for longer, I still get to 92C max whilst gaming and it gets there quite quickly-about 4 mins. So unless we are going to get a new heatsink that actually sinks heat, or they drop the performance of the card then no luck here.

 

Its not a overheating issue, its heat cycling issue. Cold > Hot wears the defective materials out probably due to thermal expansion.

 

No difinitive word yet. So I guess we're all just speculating.

 

But it is possible to have overheating problems in a gaming laptop?

It doesn't sound logical to me..
I hope zepto will send replacement kits for the affected ones..


Mamep

 

Gaming hardware can emit considerable heat. The cooling may be adequate to keep the components within the specified temperature range when a notebook is new but the cooling efficiency is like to get worse if dust clogs the system.

However, the problem with the nVidia GPUs appears to be a long term deterioration caused by both high temperatures (but still within the specified range) and the cold-hot-cold temperature cycles.

The only remedial measure that Zepto could easily distribute is a BIOS update which increases the fan activity when the system is under load.

It is unclear what proportion of the potentially affected GPUs may suffer problems during their service lives. The real issue is the need for an open-ended warranty extension for the potentially affected parts.

John

 

Only one notebook manufacturer has issued a new bios that effects the sysetm fan. HP. My wife receieved an email telling her to update to the latest bios as it will help prevent system failure by putting the system fan on earlier. The article applies to the Compaq Presario F500 series. I can't find a single presario f500 with a G84/G86 GPU. Maybe we're all worrying about nothing. It has been quite a while since nvidia announced that notebook manufacturers had been given the updated drivers. If it was such a huge issue I would of expected to see more drivers and bioses released by manufacturers. Lets wait and see if all this panic is justified.

 

Well I shure would want a newer version on the actual GPU BIOS in the next 6625 BIOS (that is, if I still have my 6625 when they do that )

 

HP issued the 'fan always on' BIOS since last year due to very high motherboard failures. Yes, even i was hit very early and very badly. They even had to recall/enhance the warranty. My gpu (go7200) died within 5 months, i wouldnt say it was overheating either.

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&cc=us&docname=c01087277&dlc=en

They issued an always on fan BIOS for the dv2500 (the enhanced/fixed models) 3 months ago. I think they knew about the nvidia problem beforehand.

 

Yeah, I saw that the release date was last decmber, I guess I'm just clutching at straws . We'll just have to wait until either nvidia or the notebook manufacturers release anything that substantiates the claims made by the inquirer.

 

I have a feeling inquirer is just speculating and publishing it to the public to pressure Nvidia to disclosing the real list of defective models

 

The Inquirer may be speculating, but they usually have their unmentionable sources which provide a foundation to the speculation.

John

 

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080716-nvidia-denies-rumors-of-mass-gpu-failures.html

regards S-EH

 

14 days have past since Zepto first announced that they would let us know whether our notebooks are effected. Still no word. There is too much speculation circulating the internet as to what is and what isn't faulty. Some say A2 cores, others say all cores. Asus has apparently admitted that some of its notebooks are effected. What time scales should we expect to be reasonable to find out whether Zepto's are effected?
On the core revision side of things, how do we tell which core we have? GPU-Z states A2, but the device manager states "PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_0407&SUBSYS_00401170& REV_A1".

 

I'm starting to think "maybe I can manage to accelerate the cooling-cycle thingy so that the problem with he GPU happens within warranty coverage!"
Zepto people, before I begin to torture my GPU, please be a little more transparent with this.

 

Not Zeptos fault that Nvidia messed up and wont release the affected models.

You guys should be happy Zepto is actually looking into this issue. All other companys arent even providing us with any sort of information at all.

 

Has anybody seen the zepto guy here recently?

 

There used to be several. Maybe they are keeping a low profile after getting too much flak over problems such as the Inventic BIOS bugs, or maybe they are too busy learning about the new models, or maybe it is the holiday season.

I suspect that Zepto don't have anything to add, at the moment, about the nVidia GPU problem. It is unclear whether nVidia themselves don't know the extent of the problem or just don't want to tell anyone. I believe that, under EU consumer legislation, it would be considered to be an inherent manufacturing defect so the liability extends beyond the basic notebook warranty (up to 5? years).

John

 

Awwwww, they still haven't fixed my computer, i just wonder why they ignore all my mails...

 

Dell has just published bios updates to compensate for the defect packing material.
This should change the fan behaviour, making it more cool.
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2008/07/25/nvidia-gpu-update-for-dell-laptop-owners.aspx

Source: http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/

Let's hope Zepto will announce a similar bios update

 

Zepto depend on Inventec for the 6xxx series BIOSes, so that may take a little time. Also, I wonder what new bugs Inventec might introduce?

John

 

Zepto, may not be effected. No one knows yet.

 

I'm starting to have black-out issues. No idea if it's related though. My gpu goes through intense heat cycles so I would bet my money on it. Please respond zepto!

 

Have a look at this page relating to Dell. Do you have any of those symptoms?

The Inquirer is sticking to its view that all the G84 and G86 series are affected by the potential problem.

John

 

uuh its getting worse and worse...

 

Just the no-video one.

Btw, all those laptops listed have G84M en G86M gpu's, even some quaddro's in the bunch, loads of diff models, but same GPU's... This has GOTTA be GPU issue, and unless the materials of the GPU core delivered to Dell were any different than Zepto's, we're probably screwed too.

 

"Investigation" my ass. It's always like this. The problem is SO huge that they simple seems to overlook it. Just think of how much money they would lose due to warranty!!! In my eyes it seems like the don't even dare to see the problem properly, as it would be a crash in their business. People would simply go nuts if they announce something like this, and start to demand their money back etc.

Well, for me and everyone else on this forums.. I HOPE this happens.

(btw, I'm talking about nVIDIA here)

The SAD thing is... what ever happens. In my case, my self and Zepto will be the one suffering in the end. I can't play games and Zepto won't ever sell anything to me again. What I mean is that if someone have experienced problems with a product of a specific brand, this someone rarely purchase a new product from the same brand ever again.

 

Zepto will be expecting to pass the cost of replacing GPUs that fail during service back to nVidia, who have already made a provision of up to US$200M against this GPU problem. However, shipping and labour costs will be at least $100 per time, so excluding replacement parts they have allowed for replacement of 1M to 2M GPUs. I'm sure they sold a lot more than that.

John

 

Judging by sale figures, I think between 10 and 20 million units would be fair. So at average, about 13 bucks a laptop . If they're lucky only 10 million due to warranty expirations i think they'll be looking at a piggy bank of at least a billion. This will be about half last years revenue... Not to mention their wallstreet losses. A grim year ahead for nVidia.

 

The Inquirer have posted a "update" to this issue that concerns that it seems G92 and G94 cores are defective like the G8x are.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/08/12/nvidia-g92s-g94-reportedly

This is bad, I don't want my laptop to die, I know it'll probably will as I can't even name the last time it was shutdown, and I use quite a bit of heavy graphics and have done so for a year.

 

Thermal cycling seems to be an factor. Maybe keeping the computer running reduces that.

The Inquirer is definitely painting a gloomy picture and the lack of real substance in the info coming from nVidia is disturbing.

John

 

Nvidia just announced first loss in several years. Mainly because of the set-aside fund of money for recalls.

They wouldn't have done this if it wasn't serious. Now that the financial quartal reports are over, we might expect some words.

 

So, basically, it makes the 9x versions prone to the problem, too? Shame, I was about to order a Zepto Nox in September. But I keep lappies for 2-3 years and this nvidia problem is certainly not helping me make my decision! Unless I opt in for a 3 year warranty service, which is expensive...

 

Apparently it's the 8xxx series as the 9600GT on desktops are based on the 8xxx chip also.

 

I went ahead and researched a little. Here is what wiki has to say about the GPU:

So, the problems of the 8x series apply to the 9x series? I wrote an e-mail to Zepto international asking them about the problem, but so far they've been quiet. A shame really, I was ready to grab that Nox lappie...

 

Nvidia wont release the proper information at all. Zepto wont be able to provide you much information as it all roots from Nvidia.

The failure rates have been normal for Zeptos AFAIK.

 

why can't we force nvidia to give out the information? customers have to know if they have a defective chip in their laptops. pay full price, get half product?

shame on nvidia, i never ever buy them again.

 

They seems to be ignoring the problem.

 

I would comment, in nVidia's defence, that it appears that this problem has evolved through both a combination of materials and operating conditions. Lack of awareness that thermal cycling could cause deterioration of the packaging meant that design specifications which only indicated a maximum temperature were not enough to prevent problems. We might eventually be told that the same materials were used in earlier GPUs, but it is only last year's notebooks which created the appropriate thermal conditions for failure.

Evidently the GPU failures were happening for some months before they could figure out why. The treatment for the problem, as issued by some manufacturers, is an updated BIOS which changes the thermal management. Maybe this is enough to avoid the problem developing.

John

 

John,

Users who have installed these bios updates on their HP machines report an uptime of their fans that is much higher than prior to the update. In essence, it deterrs the problem, but gives the user an annoying fan noise that is more frequent.

 

Of course the bios update might lengthen your laptop life, but it comes with a price, batterylife, noise etc etc.

The bios updates are just life extenders so as few as possible failures happen in warranty time... They don't give a **** about how long your laptop lasts, they only give a **** if it doesn't last the warranty life.

 

Im experiening stuttering ingame with my 6625WD (Colin McRae Dirt at low settings) and my temperature spikes very easily over 100°C after not more then 10 minutes of playing the game.

This must mean that my GPU is about to fail, or that it is "infected" with the chip problem, since I did'nt have these problems not more then 2a3 months ago.

I also had my motherboard replaced (2 months ago), can this be the cause of the high GPU-temperatures? (maybe they forgot to aply thermal-paste between the heatsink and the GPU)