*Watercooled* XMG Neo 15 / Eluktronics Mech-15 G3

XMG Neo 15 / Eluktronics Mech-15 G3






So it looks like XMG is adding a liquid cooler to the Neo 15. I have no idea if Eluktronics is planning on doing the same, but I’ll be keeping an eye on this one.

PS I feel since this deserves its own thread because this is such a unique idea that isn’t gonna cost as much as a used car like asus models did.

 

Looks great. This is the kind of innovation I would expect from industry leaders.

 

Definitely gonna be keeping an eye on availability on this one. Unlike the Asus water cooled laptop this looks simple and atleast purchasable. Plus the fact that it’s just going to have the tubes already on all XMG 15 laptops means you can always buy the pump later. Or make you own if your handy enough. The draining part is the one weak spot I see. So hopefully that gets upgraded if this ends up being successful.

I’m hoping it’s not just XMG doing this and Eluktronics is planning on offering this.

 

Yes, if they could offer a secure seal that doesn't require draining it would be great, but not a biggie IMHO. They could also offer some sort of drain tubing to eliminate the risk of splash damage lol

As for other OEMs, we can hope, although this looks like a well-deserved hard slap in the face for Alienware management, for example, who went all-in on thin and light.

On the flipaide though, I would think this could use a 330W power supply as 280W won't drive the CPU and GPU at full power.

 

I can see having to drain it for weight reasons. But then you could add a dedicated drain port like you said if you ever wanted to do that.

This honestly is a big slap to any big OEM that is just doing spec upgrades. The fact that a Tong Fang reseller is the one coming up with something new and desirable is sad. But, also great for us.

Atleast it's a step up from the 240w brick they were using before.

I imagine this thing is gonna dominate the benchmark high scores for sure when these are released.

 

Unpopular opinion: This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

 

Care to elaborate?

Bear in mind this product targets power laptop users, as in "requiring a lot of computational power" . Would you describe yourself as one? If not, this clearly isn't for you.

 

https://tenor.com/view/get-out-leave-gtfo-get-out-of-here-gif-6207127

 

It entirely defeats the purpose of being a laptop. If you're going to park it at your desk, a SFF desktop with a portable 17-inch monitor will probably be more powerful and cheaper.

 

It seems you may have missed the fact that the water cooling is entirely optional. You can disconnect it and use the laptop as normal.

 

A completely normal laptop that leaks water when disconnected.

If it didn't leak water so haphazardly, so that getting it into the ports wasn't an issue, i would be much more interested in the device.

My laptop is moved around too much. This product scares me. It's very cool though and not priced terribly.

If the water cooler is still around in a few years and it's not crazy expensive at that point, it could be an interesting upgrade path if you bought the laptop without it.

 

It doesn't leak though once you drain it and attach the cap?

 

I guess this is only suitable for a very small percentage of users who are really determined to get the most out of their laptop. For most people, an eGPU is more practical as it can also be used as a docking station that adds additional USB ports, HDMI connections etc (like most people, my eGPU is gathering dust!).

Personally, I'd rather just build an ITX gaming PC.

 

Yeah I think if they work out the draining and make it so it stays in the loop when you disconnect it would be more appealing to more people. With the way eGPU's are right now this would be a better performer though I think. Though if eGPUs would get their act together I would probably go that route for the reasons you mentioned. We need a proper upgrade from Thunderbolt 3.

 

They're kind of different things as Thunderbolt enclosures are always going to be limited by bandwidth, so any CPU throttling issues would still be there.

Still, I have no doubt that I could stick my 3090 in my Razer eGPU and get better performance than any mobile GPU that is water-cooled. Admittedly, that setup is more expensive, but it would be a similar story with lower-end RTX 30 series cards.

Thunderbolt eGPUs will also work with many different laptops, whilst this thing will end up in some silicon dump site in a couple of years as it only works with one laptop.

The question is: How much is this big heavy desktop monster actually going to help CPU and GPU performance?

 

One more benefit here is the lower noise.

eGPUs are not mutually exclusive with this. You can have a cool and quiet watercooled laptop driving a eGPU (in addition to the internal dGPU in some cases).

Of course, the main issues with eGPUs right now are small enclosures, video card prices, and somewhat limited bandwidth.

 

XMG Neo 15 weighs 2.1kg...

 

You're right. The main problem right now is finding a desktop GPU.

With regards to noise. I tested my ASUS 3070 in my eGPU last year and it was almost silent. With the right GPU and right fan (e.g. Noctua), an eGPU should be quiet.

For the record, I do appreciate XMG working on something like this and developing something new. I like when computing companies take risks and try something different.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if this was smaller. The sheer size and weight of this thing puts me off.

 

I know (I considered buying the variant from PC Specialist). I was referring to the water cooler, not the laptop itself.

 

I don't get your concern about the size and weight of a 15 inch 2.1kg laptop. It's not the Clevo X170. What are you comparing to? Macbook Air?

 

Again, I was never referring to the weight of the laptop.

 

Yes, that could be an issue if desk space is tight, otherwise not that much of a concern given that the component is stationary.

 

This is why I'm sad more eGPUs like the late Alienware graphics amp weren't made. Since they connected directly into PCIe lanes they for the most part had better overall performance. Though having proprietary connectors was the big downside. Had dell made it more universal even among their own laptops like the XPS line I think it would've been alot more popular.

The Oasis cooling is gonna be heavy since it's full of water. And they demo the improvements to temps in the video. It's enough that the GPU would definitely boost higher with GPU Boost all on it's own.

That's a big one that I don't see going away anytime soon.

 

Don't lose hope. Ethereum doesn't need to crash much further for miners to start dumping their cards, even before the 2.0 migration.

 

I had the M15 R1. I was tempted with the amplifier at one point as it was heavily reduced in price. Only being able to use it with Alienware laptops put me off.

According to XMG, the cooler weighs 1.39KG when filled (though I guess weight is kind of irrelevant when it sits on the desk, the size is a bigger concern).

https://www.xmg.gg/en/xmg-oasis/

Rather than use a 2.1KG gaming laptop with this, I'd rather move up to a 2.5KG gaming laptop that has less thermal issues.

 

It honestly looks small. The video makes it look like it's actually reasonable in size. So long as there is no depth of field tricks going on it looks smaller than any eGPU I've seen.

EDIT
https://www.xmg.gg/en/xmg-oasis/
They have an unboxing video. It's very small. So it's actually gonna be easy to place even on a small desk.

 

Yeah, it looks smaller than any eGPU. The Razer eGPU I have is massive.

I'll keep tabs on this and see how it performs when the reviews etc come out. I'm keen to know how the laptop performs without water cooling and how much it improves once connected. Maybe I'm too skeptical about what the benchmarks will actually be haha

 

If I get one I'll definitely share my results.

 

*Sorry Double Post*

 

Please don't prove me wrong or I'll end up buying it

 

203 x 75 x 186 mm (L x W x H) - this thing is tiny.

The temps are phenomenal, almost too good to be true, but we have to remember that rhe laptop effectively has two complementary cooling systems.

 

Sorry your fate is sealed.

 

They also have a survey around the product linked on their page.

https://www.xmg.gg/en/xmg-oasis/

I never owned any of their products which increasingly feels like a mistake. Too bad they closed their UK shop.

 

I took the survey and let them know they should try and refine that drain method for the laptop. Not sure if they'll actually listen. But it can't hurt to voice any improvements.

 

It won't. The 280w adapter is a HARD handicap on maximum performance.

 

I wonder how much of a handicap that is.i practice. First of all, the undervolted CPU tends to use much less power., second: do benchmarks really tend lo put 100% load on botb the GPU and all 14 cores of the CPU?

 

That brings up a good question actually. Does throttlestop have alder lake support yet?

Also on the point on power, just realised this doesn't have a 3080ti config so it skirts the edge I suppose.

Still, it will have to contend with shunt modded 3080 laptops so it likely won't top the charts until its shunt modded as well.

 

Actually, the upcoming E22 model will support 3080Ti 175W.

https://www.xmg.gg/en/news-xmg-neo-15-e22/

While I would consign shunt modded laptops to a separate mad science category, I think there is little argument here overall - the 280W adapter is underpowered, particularly given the exceptional on paper cooling.

Still, when running heavy loads on a laptop for extended periods, as opposed to episodic benchmarking stunts, the primary concern is heat and its impact on laptop's expected lifespan, and this seems to be addressing the issue rather well. Noise can also be a significant consideration and again this scores well in that category.

 

Ah thats a shame then, If it had a 330w adapter the full performance of the 3080ti could have been realised after a shunt mod, I'm thinking maybe 250w-ish at 2.1ghz. Proper 4k 60hz gaming in a laptop anyone?

Lifespan degradation due to heat is a practically a non issue unless you're talking about crypto mining on a laptop. Whats a lifespan degradation from 20 years to 15 years going to affect when you're going to replace it in 4-6 years?

In fact, having more parts increases the likelihood something will fail prematurely. Where laptop fans can be re-lubricated or replaced easily I'm not sure this parts in this custom water cooling solution will be so easy to replace. The pump could fail, the water cooling loop in the laptop could corrode and the replacement parts will likely be unavailable in 5 years if not earlier.

 

I'm not sure anyone can offer reliable predictions on the lifespan of a laptop under particular loaf, so I lieu of that the rule of thumb is the cooler the better. It is also quite good not to have the fans running at 100% under full load.These are well known points of failure, albeit obviously cheaper to replace.

Yes, the internal loop is an additional point of faiure to consider, although they said its made of aluminum and immune to corrosion. I wouldn't personally be worried about that at all. That leaves tbe connector - probably the weakest link. The external components are fairly cheap. At the end of the day, should the water cooling subsystem fail, one is most likely left with a competent air-cooled system weighing 2.1kg, although to be fair, it's also possible to end up with the whole system ruined. That's the usual tradeoff involved in WC systems - the nice difference here is that it's a hybrid solution.

 

Hi everyone,

thank you for all the positive feedback. Before this forum closes down, I would like to reply to some of your comments. Maybe I will you some of you on our own sub-reddit or on our Discord server. We have already assembled a nice little community of enthusiasts on Discord, including the officially condoned #modding-and-overclocking channel.

Unless we're talking about shunt modding and overclocking, the 280W power adapter will not be a bottleneck for any benchmarking or real-world use case.

We have this formula: [CPU/0.8] + [GPU] + 20W[System] + 10W[Liquid Cooling] = Total System Power Consumption

The 0.8 divisor in the CPU comes from the fact that Intel's CPU Package Power is measured after voltage regulators, while AMD CPU and NVIDIA GPU are measured before.

This this formula I can present this table:



This table shows the maximum GPU Power of each GPU on the horizontal lines. Assuming you run each GPU at its highest available power budget, the vertical collumns show you how much CPU Package Power you can add to reach a specific total system power consumption.

Please note that the 20W (System) and 10W (Liquid Cooling) already have a lot of headroom. In reality, the Liquid Cooling does not take more than 6.5 Watts.

Color Index:

• Yellow = Within 230W adapter spec
  
• Green = Within 280W adapter spec
• Red = Within 330W adapter spec
• Grey = Above 330W adapter spec

Looking at the RTX 3080 Ti, you can run the CPU with at least 55W CPU Package Power while maxing out the NVIDIA GPU, and you are still within the range of the 280W power adapter.
CPU power consumption during gaming is usually well below 40W, especially for the highly efficient Alder Lake generation.

If you have a benchmark or a realistic work-load which maxes out both CPU and GPU, please let me know. I'm looking for something to replace Furmark+Prime95.
Perhaps rendering in Blender with and without Optix in parallel? Is this possible or realistic? I'm not sure.

And don't worry about peak loads beyond these numbers. 280W is the "sustained load" output power spec of the adapter. The peak and surge loads are allowed to be higher, according to the 280W adapter's spec sheet:

• 115% (322W) for 5 seconds
• 120% (336W) for 1 second
• 130% (364W) for 0.5 seconds
• 170% (476W) for 2ms
• [etc.]

A 330W power adapter is under consideration. But we want to gain some experience with the new 280W adapter first before we do the next step. Both new adapters (280W and 330W) will use the same DC jack. If we decide to support the 330W adapter, owners of XMG NEO (E22) with 280W adapter will be able to upgrade (just buy the 330W adapter as a spare part) and run a little BIOS update to tell the mainboard that 330W is go-time.

Older adapters (between 90W and 230W) will be compatible with the new laptop generation. But the adapters (280W and 330W) will not be compatible with older laptops. The difference is not in the mechanical plug, but in the metallurgic properties of both DC jack and DC plug. More details on this will be announced next week when we start the pre-order phase of XMG NEO 15 (E22).

True, but the laptop's fan RPM is cut down by at least 45% in the video (Cinebench and Furmark) and by over 60% in more realistic use cases.

Draining the laptop won't save you more than 20 gram, so probably not too significant.

Two accessories are still being worked on:

• Extension tubes for XMG NEO to help with the drainage of liquid.
• A custom fitted ball pump as an alternative for draining XMG NEO.

Samples of the first part will already ship with some review samples.

We analyzed all submissions and real all survey comments last week, which probably includes yours, too. The drain method is being refined as we speak. The results of the survey have been published in this news update which can be discussed in this thread.

The drainage method is being refinded, so that water will drain further away from the chassis of the laptop. On top of this, we will provide silicon dust covers for USB-C and HDMI (two each) with every unit of XMG OASIS.

See comment above.

True, but we still ship to the UK. Quote from our website: since 1.1.2021 we do not charge VAT on orders with a delivery address in the UK (excluding Northern Ireland). Delivery will be net and the recipient will have to pay 20 % UK VAT and £17 customs processing charge on delivery. For deliveries to Northern Ireland, we will continue to collect 20% VAT and no further charges will apply on delivery.

Cheers,
Tom

 

Fantastic response, thanks Tom. I do have to say I don't understand this:

"The 0.8 divisor in the CPU comes from the fact that Intel's CPU Package Power is measured after voltage regulators, while AMD CPU and NVIDIA GPU are measured before."

If Intel utilises 0.8x W after voltage regulators, that means it needs x/0.8W BEFORE voltage regulators, no?

PSU -> voltage regulator -> CPU

If that were the case then obviously the case for a bigger PSU would be clear cut.
Additionally, when I look at the power draw on an Intel CPU in reference to the overall power draw, I just see the expected number, no multipliers.

Either way, I love the product idea and specs overall, and also happy to see the E21 had 93Whr battery (I'm assuming the E22 offers no less). I guess the only thing really missing is 4 RAM slots / 128GB RAM support, but this could be less important for a while given DDR5 prices lol

 

Correct. That's why my calculation table includes the 0.8 divisor. The numbers inside the table already take this divisor into account.

Again:

• HWiNFO64 reads 45W CPU Package Power (see header in my table)
• 45W/0.8 = 56.25W ← this is what the mainboard really needs to deliver. This is what is being used to calculate the total sum in each cell of the table.

In other words: this VRM loss does not strengthen the case for a bigger PSU because the numbers in my table are already final and include all VRM conversion loss. They have a bit of headroom in the "20W" (System) and "10W" (Cooling) estimates, so the real consumption number is most likely going to be slightly lower than what you see in the table. Unless you are charging 4 phone batteries at the same time, one on each USB port...

Yes, E22 will use the same battery part number as E20, E21 and M21.

I know you are probably half-joking, but just for clarification: 4x SO-DIMM is not supported by Alder Lake P Platform.

Cheers,
Tom

 

Ah, clear - so basically the basis for the original comment is that it you have a CPU capable of boosting to 90W (and sustain this given proper cooling and some tweaks), then with 3080Ti we are looking at 318W in your table.
Of course, with undervolting the realistic max CPU power draw under full load would be more along the lines of 65W, but that still goes over the 280W limit.

In practice, most people would get a way with less CPU power, but if you could support 330W as an option, that would be awesome, and would synergise with the watercooling.

Didn't know ADL P doesn't support 4 DIMMS, that's a shame. Wasn't joking about that at all. Would be a shame to have to settle for something like a Dell Precision (will be interesting to see if they cut the RAM slots with 12th gen), just because I need more RAM and that somehow still supports 4 DIMMs. Appreciate we are not talking about typical gaming applications here, but people use these kind of systems for other purposes.

 

Well I do appreciate the transparency on what is still being worked on and that our voices are being heard. This is definitely a project I want to see succeed. And I’m glad too see there is some improvements still being made around the mounting and drain ports. I’ll eagerly await the next demo video and hopefully reviews in the near future.

 

Meanwhile, we have launched a big thread with lots of technical information regarding the laptop that will support this water cooling solution:

• [Launch] XMG NEO 15 (Early 2022) with Intel Core 12th Gen and up to RTX 3080 Ti

Chapters:

• Roadmap and Product Pages
• New Specifications and Platform Updates
• New GPU Power Limits, courtesy of NVIDIA
• Set up or max-out your own performance profile
• NVIDIA Whisper Mode 2.0 in 'Balanced' profile
• Alder Lake Mobile Platform and Series Overview
• DDR5: Single DIMM vs. Dual DIMM Performance
• Removing the Bottom Case requires a few additional screws
• DisplayPort Support via Thunderbolt 4 in Alder Lake P Platform
• Power Supply: New Socket, New Adapter, Backward Compatibility
• Improved Speakers and better sound
• Future plans for XMG NEO series
• Supply Schedule and Upcoming Reviews

Cheers,
Tom