Looking for help with my CF-30

We will be expecting a few toughbook shots of the CF-30 at "work" in the ice and snow when you do come back, lol.

 

good to know ... ya gotta "sponsor" ... well , in part .

best of wishes on your sojourn .

 

Yea I'll be watching this one now.

 

Hey folks, it's been at least a couple months since I've been here, I got back from the field in Greenland a few weeks ago and just wanted to say Hi!

My Toughbook CF-30 did the job fabulously, I have little to complain about. We spent 6.5 weeks in Greenland from late April through early June. Fortuitous good weather at the start of the trip allowed us to accomplish everything we set out to do, on budget and ahead of schedule, which is pretty rare in those parts. We had some surmountable difficulties, but overall, a success!

I used the Toughbook regularly in temps between -30 F to +10 F (and warmer the couple times we got to go inside), with the following setup:

• Toughbook CF-30 mk3
• Three (3) primary batteries
• One Media Bay battery
• One external battery charger
• 2 charging cords

My main raves:

• The Toughbook was tough (yay!). Despite a month of banging around on the back of snowmobiles, C-130s and Twin Otter planes, it never broke, never even hiccuped, booted up when cold, ran while being snowed on, and the battery life was plenty adequate for what I needed. The ports worked flawlessly when I needed to read or write data to our field stations.
• The screen, battery and hard-drive heaters worked great. When doing a cold boot (figuratively and literally) it delayed for about a minute before booting to warm things up, which is great since the BIOS screen warned it could take "up to 30 minutes" (which it never did).
• The SSD drive I installed had no issues whatsoever. We backed it up regularly just in case, but the backups went unused.

My complaints are few and minor, but here ya' go:

• In the cold (usually below 0*F), the touch-screen mis-read my stylus position by at least a half-inch to an inch off. I couldn't figure out how to "re-adjust" it in those conditions, which made it very difficult to use (practically useless) in the cold. I could still use the mousepad--and that's what I did--but the touchscreen would've been nice.
• The media bay battery didn't add much life. Maybe an extra 30 minutes when cold before the media bay battery was dead. The primary battery lasted several hours beyond that, so I can't complain, but was hoping for a bit more from the Media Bay Battery given it's nearly equal the size and price. The fact that the Media Bay *isn't* heated in the machine probably made the primary difference, I think.
• The little rubber "cover" for the power cord port ripped off, I taped it back on for the remainder of the trip. Not a huge deal, that can be easily swapped out for another, but it did rip off. I've had bigger failures from plastic/rubber components in cold temperatures, I consider that minor. I'll have a replacement port-cover shortly, and I appreciate the Toughbook components are easily swappable.

A few random pics:


Using the Toughbook to read data from one of our buried stations. Later that day we unhooked all the components, raised the tower and continued the measurements.


Views on the plane ride in:


Sun Dog:


Everyone needs a bit of work in the off-season, even this guy:


Hanging out at the old abandoned Dye-2 station, a cold-war era US Army Radar station, vacant for the past 27 years:


Thanks everyone! I do appreciate the help folks gave me, y'all have a great community here. If and when I have questions again, I'll be back!

- Mike

 

Wow...great feedback and story...

Thanks for sharing

 

Welcome back.
We've been watching for when you turn back up. Great pix.

 

good to hear from you .
glad there were no major mishaps and the '30 did the job .
did the port cover fail from low temps ?
i wonder if i can replicate the touch screen error by putting mine in the freezer .

twin otter ...
man , i put some hours in on them .
tough plane .

 

Not necessarily in order.
1. The TSPCB reacts strangely to cold.
2. Ice between layers of the touch screen and cable (FPC)
3. Who has done a study on resistance and temperature.

So... time to warm up the lid, yes?

Dinner is warm so you'all think about it.

J'd

 

I seem to remember that resistance decreases with decreases in temperature. There used to be a lot discussion about super cooling being a big part of super conductor research.
CAP

 

i think yer on the right track with the resistance vs temperature curve .
i don't see the interface being that touchy to temperature .
it would do very little good to do *simple* temperature compensation (ie : inset two thermistors (positive or negative coefficient) in the x/y lines .
sensing the temperature of the touch screen itself (averaged over , say , four areas) and applying the appropriate correction factor(s) would be a good start .

has there ever been anything in the panasonic data sheets about the temperature linearity of the touch screen ?

 

Thanks for coming back and giving us a update. That media bay battery should of done better. I get close to a hour on my used one, but I don't use it in that cold of a area.

On the charging port cover replacement you got look at it good and make sure it's not one of the cheap china made ones, they don't last long at all or seal as well. Make sure it's a original replacement.

 

The OEM ones have a rubber seal around it...cheap China ones don't.

 

If there has, I'd be curious to read about it. I plan on taking the same Toughbook to the field next year (our project is 3 years total), so if there is any correction that can be done in cold temps, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks!

- Mike

 

Thanks for the heads-up on the port-covers, guys. If one of you has a quick link to an OEM port cover (it's a single piece that covers both the battery and USB ports), I can go ahead and order one of those and not worry about cheap Chinese knock-offs. It's worth the few extra $$ for me to have something that maintains a good seal there.

- Mike

 

Were you using fingers or a stylus?

 

Cover the battery and USB ???
Not sure what you are talking about

 

I tried both, neither worked on the touchscreen. The position offset made it neigh impossible to do anything with buttons, menus, etc. So I just switched to using the Mousepad and it was fine. It'd have been nice to be able to use that in the cold though, and if there are any adjustments that can be made in those conditions, it'd be great!

Let me get a few pictures posted in just a sec, I'll explain it.

 

Okay, the little piece that ripped off (the power cord cover) is attached to the USB cover, i.e. it's one single piece with two covers (one for the USB port, one for the Power Cable), so I need to replace that one piece (with both covers, simultaneously).





That's what I need to replace... not a big deal, but I'd just as soon get an OEM genuine Toughbook part rather than a cheap Chinese knock-off that doesn't actually seal as well (or at all) over the ports. Saving the extra buck-or-two doesn't help me when I take it to the field next year.

Let me know if you have any links to where I can pick something like that up. Thanks!

- Mike

EDIT: Ah, NEVERMIND. I was wrong, it's actually two separate pieces, they were simply screwed in together with a common little metal strip covering both of them, so it really is just the power cord cover that needs replacing. I didn't realize that until I actually unscrewed it all the way and took it off. My bad! Sorry for the confusion.

 

Mil-Std-810G – Part 4 (Low Temperature)
This is Part 4 of a series delving into the intricacies of Mil-Std-810G.

810G covers temperature in 501.5 (High Temperature) which was discussed in a previous blog, 502.5 (Low Temperature) and 503.5 (Temperature Shock). Method 520.3 details testing which combines temperature, humidity, vibration and altitude interactively. Methods 520.3 will be examined in future blogs. Method 502.5 covers 6 pages of Mil-Std-810G.

This method is not intended for testing materiel to be installed in and operated in unpressurized aircraft, since such materiel would usually be tested according to Method 520.3.

Low temperature effects on computers and LCDs include:

• Failure of the system to boot
• Drive failure
• Drive won’t spin due to internal frost
• Stiffening of shock mounting devices
• Change in vibration and shock dynamic response
• Cracking of surface coatings
• Cracking from differential expansion (contraction) of dissimilar materials
• Change in electrical properties of electronic components
• Integrated Circuit (IC) bond failure
• LCD will not operate due to sluggish or frozen liquid crystal material
• Delamination of the LCD display
• Excessive static electricity

As with Method 501.5 for High Temperature, with a few exceptions, the Methods for low temperature do not place absolute limits on the devices to be tested. There is no specification delineating a minimum temperature of 0 deg C, for example. Thus, a manufacturer stating their device has been tested per Mil-Std-810G for operation between 0 and 50 deg C has written their own test method.

The limitations for 502.5 specify the Method is appropriate for short term (months as opposed to years), even distributions of cold throughout the test item. For the purposes of testing, time is allowed for the test item to stabilize in temperature.

Within 502.5 are three procedures:

• Procedure I – Storage
• Procedure II – Operation
• Procedure III – Manipulation

In general, companies will publish both storage and operating temperature specifications but rarely, if ever, Manipulation for computers or LCDs. Use Procedure III to investigate the ease with which the equipment can be set up and disassembled by personnel wearing heavy, cold-weather clothing. In the case of computers, the use of gloves might be an impediment to operating the systems.

Testing for cold simulates conditions in selected regions or for worldwide use. Note that Antarctica is excluded from consideration by international treaty restrictions for military equipment. On the other hand, testing for civilian use in Antarctica is appropriate. Solar loading is not considered an issue so testing at constant temperatures is allowed.

There are three cold test environments:

Basic Cold covers most of Europe; Northern contiguous US; Coastal Canada; High-latitude coasts (e.g., southern coast of Alaska); High elevations in lower latitudes and ranges from -21 to -31 deg C for ambient air temperature and -25 to -33 deg C for induced environment (storage and transit).

Cold covers Canada, Alaska (excluding the interior); Greenland (excluding the “cold pole”); Northern Scandinavia; Northern Asia (some areas), High Elevations (Northern and Southern Hemispheres); Alps; Himalayas; Andes and ranges from -37 to -46 deg C for ambient and -25 to -33 deg C for induced environment (storage and transit).

Severe Cold covers the Interior of Alaska; Yukon (Canada); Interior of Northern Islands; Greenland ice cap; Northern Asia and specifies a single temperature of -51 deg C.

Note that there are frequencies of occurrence that certain low temperatures may be experienced. For example, there is a 20 percent chance of going to -51 deg C and a 1 percent chance of going all the way down to -61 deg C. For extended storage such as years in areas that experience extreme cold, there is a chance the material may experience temperatures approaching -65 deg C.

Testing time for storage of 4 hours at a stabilized temperature is generally considered adequate for nonhazardous or non-safety-related equipment. Some items such as explosives may continue to degrade over time at low temperatures and should be tested further as appropriate.

Note that Method 502.5 does not mention humidity. Because the humidity is so low, essentially non-existent at these low temperatures, static electric generation does become an issue and must be considered. As a side note, it is much more important to practice safe static electric remediation procedures at low temperatures including use of wrist straps, grounding points, non-static generating packaging and wiping cloths, etc. Users may have a Styrofoam coffee cup handy trying to keep warm and Styrofoam can generate very high static fields.

The test itself is rather anti-climatic. The device under test is placed in a chamber, powered down, and the temperature lowered to the desired value. Generally the rate of change in the chamber is limited to 3 deg C per minute to prevent thermal shock. Soak at the storage temperature for 4 hours, then raise the chamber temperature to the operating temperature, let the item stabilize internally at that temperature, then power it on and check operation.

Chassis Plans is versed in low temperature operation of rugged military grade computers and LCDs and can provide remediation such as extended temperature components or heaters as required. There are multiple options for products such as rugged LCDs to enable low temperature operation.

 

That sounds better. I have been selling OEM Toughbooks parts for almost 5 years and never heard of one like you said. When I get home I will see if I have one left. I do have some on order...well back order that is

 

The specs don't say anything about touchscreen performance....

Check out these.
http://www.newertech.com/products/nutouchgloves.php

 

/me clears out a section of the freezer .
(boy , is the GF ever gonna be pi**ed at me)

 

If it wasn't for increased battery usage you could heat the lid/lcd/TS. Dreaming up a plan to use caddy heaters. Just dreaming.
See Shawn's link re:styrofoam cups. Yer not insulating the toughbook are you? Users may have a Styrofoam coffee cup handy trying to keep warm and Styrofoam can generate very high static fields.

Larry, I agree it seems like a temperature/resistance correlation. To the GF, " It's in the interest of science."bless her heart.

OP, I'm sure? someone used a smartphone or tablet. Anything happening there? Or not happening as the case may be.

Re: Power Port,
The metal strip comes off and the power port cover is seen to be interlocked with the USB cover. BTW I sewed one (power port cover) back together one time in the saddle shop. Added a nylon strip. UGLY

 

"Larry, I agree it seems like a temperature/resistance correlation. To the GF, " It's in the interest of science."bless her heart."
weeeeelll ... that one aint gonna fly ...
i have run that one (and similar statements) right into the ground .
after 15 years , there aint much that will sound palpable .

 

Ok. Just a thought. But are the touch screens and digitizer screens, not multi pane screens? In which case, could not the extreme cold not have caused the individual layers to contract enough to cause them to not function properly? Cold caused an air gap so to speak. Just a thought, if no ones considered it?

 

Gents,I happen to have a nearly empty freezer and several touchscreen units. Just say the word and I'll freeze one up tonight. The freezer kicks tail also.

 

I have some ac covers here if you guys need one.

 

Good point Bill. Touchscreens are composed of a thin and thick layer as you say.
Hey Kerry...chunk a digitizer in the freezer in the interest of science. :rofl:

 

a digitizer should be unaffected by temperature...

 

I can do that,a motion computing tablet to the deep freeze with a CF-52GUN. How about that?

 

I'm not familiar with the digitizers mechanics YET. But in time I'll grasp it. Why would it not be affected?

 

I'm not a digitizer expert 'cause every one worked out of the box. It's like a piece of window screen or something. Shawn can tell you.
Touch screens ARE affected by stuff or at least show continuity/resistance in the two circuits .....if a circuit is weak or broken, calibration is off or non-calibratable. (spell check says no but I like it)
If the layers of the touchscreen are changing size with temperature change hey presto .....your culprit.
Speculation: If a smart phone circuit is printed on glass there would be less "movement" yes?
So gorilla glass touch screens for toughbooks? Hmmmmm? I thought of it....... should I get a patent?

 

"I can do that,a motion computing tablet to the deep freeze with a CF-52GUN. How about that?"

sounds cool .
heh heh heh

there is a possibility that the constant voltage circuit (think regulator) for the A/D converter of the interface may not be stable at temperatures below a certain point .
in this case , a shot of "freeze mist" to the interface board should narrow down the list of culprits .
it could come down to a single component on the board being the fly in the ointment .

"But are the touch screens and digitizer screens, not multi pain screens?"
CFA

 

This is my limited understanding of it.
On a Toughbook, the touchpanel is a multi pane plastic affair that measures the resistance where your finger touches it. (Pushes the 2 panes together.) It does that across the X and Y axis to calculate where your finger is. So when the panel sends resistance values of lets say 478 ohms and 194 ohms the touchscreen circuit says oh you must be at X-48 and Y-25. Anything that changes the resistance will effect calibration. Cold and heat affects hard plastic and that changes the resistance.

On a digitizer, mounted to the rear of the lcd, (about 1/4" away) is an antenna array of sorts. This array transmits a signal. The digitizer stylus has passive electronic circuit inside it. A coil sort of like one side of a transformer. Now when the stylus comes near axis points of lets say X-48 and Y-25, the antenna array grid knows the exact location of the signal that is returned by that stylus.

Smart phones are affected by extreme temperatures but not as much as an OLD Toughbook would be. Glue gets old and weak. Panel layers separate slightly over time. On a Gorilla glass smartphone the touchpanel is very thin and flexible. It is also VERY glued down across the entire surface. That reduces the change in resistances.... This is the reasons the newer Toughbooks (CF53) uses a touchpanel that is VERY glued the the LCD. Generally you replace the entire LCD if the touchpanel goes bad...

The other comparison I want to see is an old touchpanel vs a new touchpanel in the same model..

What model Motion Computing tablet? I have a C5v.......

 

Oh and BTW I have not found a digitizer panel that will fit in a CF29/30/31...I have looked...
I have found one that should fit in a CF52...Too pricy for me to purchase yet. But they are dropping in price...

 

i have replaced a couple of lcds in laptops that had a "digitizer" .
(@ shawn : recall the toshiba i mentioned to you)
the "array" is rather strange looking but simple ... looks like someone working on one side of a canned goods display in a grocery store .
it is located on the back side of the lcd as a separate thin , semi-rigid unit .
by their nature of design , they are temperature stable .
however , they do require a *special* stylus for correct operation .
also , i do not know if the array would work in close proximity to a metal back (as with the '30) .

an up side is no need to "split hairs" when it comes to the bezel/display cosmetics when retrofitting to a *plain jane* display .
also , there are no issues with reduced brightness due to absorption as with a touch screen .

if a digitizer kit (or at least the required dimensions) could be found for the '30 and there were no proximity issues , it would certainly fix the problem of drifting/shifting calibration .

 

Digitizers work fine with metal backs. My CF19 has one..

 

If I was home I would post some pictures up of the digitizer board of the CF-18/19

 

Both have been in the freezer for 2 days and I have it cranked up. I will try to get them fired up today and then we will see what happens.

 

Will the next test be in the oven?

Will we get any photos?

 

Photos from Kerri..

 

"Will the next test be in the oven?"

"shake and bake ... it's better than frying"
and if you can remember that commercial ... yer old .

annnd ... how about having this feller work on yer CF :

 

And the results before they thawed back out were??

 

We may have to wait...Kerri had to freeze himself with the Toughbooks. . That's the only way to do a real simulation..
He has been in the freezer one day already..Someone will let him out tomorrow..

 

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread now , and impressed at the efforts to reproduce the problem. A good diagnosis is the best path to a cure, as it were. Thanks a bunch!

 

Ok then,been busy plus I'm a lazy f**k so it took this long to try the CF-52GUN.Yes,it has been in the freezer the entire time. I cranked it today with a 128SSD and the LCD failed to light. It did have some pink in it so that's why I was using it....fail.

Next up,a CF-74Mk4 with a bios pass.I'll freeze it and report back next week I promise,can't fire up the digitizer as my truck is in the shop with all my ac adapters. I don't have a spare 30 or I would use that.

 

Kerri,
Do you have a CF52P to try?
The WXGA resolution model. NOT the WUXGA version.
They have the LED- LCD backlight. Just curious of the comparison between CCFL and LED backlight...

Come on...Just put ALL of your Toughbooks in the freezer....

 

Nope,my 52P bit the dust.The screen was garbage on that 52GUN so I put the 74 in a plastic bag to keep excess moisture out.Gonna check it Tuesday.

 

Ok