Panasonic CF-28 Toughbook Battery Info

CF-28 / CF-48 / CF-48 CF-VZSU18 Battery Packs: I have a bunch of these with an Apr-06 mfg date that have never been used and they are currently paper weights. These were plugged into different Toughbooks and several got the blinking red light of death.

I tried charging a bad pack using the far outside terminals, (labelled + and -), at 300 mA. Starting voltage was less than 30 mV. The voltage slowly increased to 12 V, during which time the connector end warmed slightly, and then the power was removed. The voltage then fell fairly fast to less than 30 mV and of course the pack was dead dead.

So the pack was cut open and the 3 individual gangs of 3 batteries were charged individually at 300 mA until each set reached 4.1 V with the power removed. Voltage at the far outside battery connector contacts maintained a steady 12.3 V.

A 1.5 A load was then applied across the far outside terminals. The load was removed after 5.5 hours at which time the no load voltage was 10.8 V.

300 mA was then applied across the far outside terminals for about 24 hours, after which the steady state voltage was 12.4 V.

So it seems the pack is now fully functioning and that the microcontroller or battery management chip was preventing charging when the cell voltage was nearly 0.

Here is my question: Presuming my other battery packs were to behave similarly, how can they be charged without having to cut the packs apart and charging the separate cells? Any help in understanding these things is appreciated.

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For those wondering what’s in these packs, here is some info that may help.

With the pack layed flat with the 9-pin connector at the top right, (and number the pins left to right 1 thru 9), the batteries are grouped as follows. There are 2 rows of 4 batteries stacked end to end, and one battery laying across the width at the end away from the controller board and connector. The controller manages the charging of each of 3 parallel ganged sets of 3 batteries.
* (3) batteries are ganged together at the top right, with the +4 V end at the bottom and -0 V at the top. A green wire runs from the +4 V end to the controller board.
* (3) batteries are ganged together at the bottom right, with the - top end connected to the +4 V of the first ganged set and the +8 V at the bottom. A yellow wire runs from the +8 V end to the controller board.
* Of the last gang of 3, the - end right end of the battery laying across the width of the pack connects to the +8 V of the second ganged set and the - ends of the batteries at the upper left and lower left of the pack. The - end is at the top of the upper left battery and at the bottom of the lower left battery. The + 12 V ends of these 3 batteries are connected by a red wire that connects next to, but not directly, (as I see it), Pin 9, (far outside pin).

Identifiable chips on the controller board are: Weltrend WT50F6 48-pin 8 bit microcontroller and TI bq2060A fuel gauge which I understand communicate with the Toughbook via 2-wire SMBus protocol. The 9 lithium ion batteries are Samsung ICR18650-24B.

 

Good info.... I tried this sort of system some time ago. The batteries worked well for about 3-4 charge/discharge cycles and then they got the dreaded blinking red light again. One or two worked a little longer and I believe that one of them still works after being brought back to life. Most quickly devolved back to what they were though...

Perhaps you found the holy grail way though... I just shot enough voltage into the batteries for the controller to recognize that the batteries had voltage and would then charge them. Then I cycled them several times.

 

i had an aftermarket batt for cf-28/48/50 that would instantly turn off at 50% remaining(no shutdown or hibernate) after 1 hr of use, it seemed like a cicuit problem and not a cell issue. i also had a few oem 5.4 blue tabs around that would charge but only had 5min run time. i opened the aftermarket batt and oem batt, desoldered both cell packs and swapped them. the aftermarket batt had canadian made 18650 cells, now connected to a panasonic 5.4 blue tab circuit board, taped the plastic case together and charged the battery, it had 1.5 hrs run time on first trial with a red light at 10% remaining. i have cycled it several times down to 0% in windows surfing the web at full bright lcd then restart and f8 to safe mode and run down till safemode forces shutdown and i'm at 2 hrs 8min now with my sows ear to silk purse battery!

 

Anybody experienced an OEM batt that says it has like 2.5hrs of runtime or something and you're using it and it says it has a high % left still but all of the sudden it crashes down to critical low with 5min remaining or something, I've had like 5 different batteries do that to me recently. They act like they take a normal charge too, charges back up says approx 3hrs, lasts 30-45 min still advertising 2:15hrs then crashes out of nowhere. What causes this?

 

Bad cells inside the battery. You need to replace the bad cells, or just get new batteries I am afraid. There has been some talk of trying to De-fib them back to life, but AFAIK no one has had much success in that arena.

 

Nope.... And now I have a bunch of CF-28s that I am going to build and no good batteries! RATS! I refuse to pay $50 per battery (Minimum) so I will probably advertise them with dead batteries so they know to order one when they buy the CF-28. I have a bunch of the 18650s too... Until we find a way around the internal software/hardware that still shows a red flashing light even though it has new batteries inside... I'm sunk and will use them on other projects!

 

Wow you buy batteries for $50. My friend bought a brand new one for his rig for $150.00. He loves it but I will not tell him better deals are out there. I guess he gets over 4 hours with it.

 

And being Lithium Ion batteries, catching on fire is something they will do very well if overcharged or charged too quickly and protection circuitry (I think in the host, not the battery itself, but could be wrong) doesn't realise what is wrong.

Been some classic cases of lithium-ion laptop and mobile phone batteries exploding. Pity it don't happen to a some Iphones.. I detest those devices almost as much as CrackBerry's.

THere are a whole raft of used CF28 battery packs on Ebay and plenty of 'new' ones from China. I've got about an hour out of the battery pack in my CF28 today which I thought was actually quite good. Still want to get a new battery to have a spare.

Maybe there's a need to disect a CF28 battery pack and take some high-res pics of the progress so we know what's inside them.

Craig.

 

The problem with the generic batteries that I have tried in the cf-28 is that they don’t seem to communicate well with the toughbook
I have had them go to a red in a very short time , long before they have actually run out of power
They have acted very strange , sometimes flashing red

They seem to be readily available though

Anyone else have any experience with the Chinese/Generic batteries?



Alex

 

Yeah I tried one and it was a POS. It didn't communicate well with the computer and would go "Critical low" long before it actually died. The battery actually died after like 8 months of use and was a total rip off. I know Batteries Plus sells a rayovac replacement for the CF-28 I think it runs around $120 and its a great battery that works well. You can order them online, dunno about shipping to Canada tho.

 

hi i don't know if this helps but my battery in my cf-28 gave the red flashing light and would not charge.i tried the bios utility and still same.i can however charge it with the utility and then shut down the lap top before the discharge stage. ran the the laptop for 2hrs before it needed charging again. any info on why this is happerning would be great.thanks

 

Muzz,
I don't know what is happening, but you may have stumbled on something. I'm off to the cellar to try one of my dead batteries. Have you tried to charge it in the normal fashion since? This could put you in the forum Hall of Fame.
CAP

 

I just got a generic battery off ebay, so far so good. I was getting maybe 1/2 an hour on my old battery. Now I am getting about 3-4 hours. I've had for about a week so far. Seller offered a 6mnt warranty. Hope I don't need it.

 

Jeep

That’s the info we need to know

If there is more available from the seller post a link please

Or a model # ,name of manufacturer , info on the battery



Alex

 

just a small update,i seem to have a battery that won't make its mind up.i ran off some charge tonight to about 85%.i tried charging and after about 1 min of amber i got the red flashing .however it would charge if i am using the laptop? .just not when powered off.this would explain why the refresh utility wouldn't work because it would shut down the unit after a discharge and try to recharge whilst powered down.the battery is the standard blue tab 5.5amh

 

My brand newCF-29 toughbook battery is done charging. I'm I supposed to let it charge for 8-12 hours before I use it? My friends CF-28 instructions said to let it charge for at least 8 hours after the green light goes on.

 

I may have missed it, is there an existing thread which encapsulates and details forum users experience with different battery retail outlets regarding value/quality/service?

There is the thread on Batteryrefill.com: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=218533&highlight=battery

This quote: Capt Dogfish = "For a new battery, look for Bill from upstate New York on eBay. He has new green tab Cf-28 batteries and media bay batteries. I have had very good luck with his stuff. After you buy one, you can email him and he will deal. One of the good ones!"

Anyone have any feedback or advice on other ebay or retail stores such as: http://store.l-f-l.com/cgi-bin/cp-a...33951326&zmas=5&zmac=91&zmap=CFVZSU04m2852267 or http://www.notebook-batteries.net/laptop-battery/panasonic/XLB0067.htm

I need to move reasonably quickly in getting a new battery for one notebook, and recycle the used ones down the line.

Thanks

gb

 

If you get the red flashing light... You are toast on a stick!

Rebuilt don't work and play well with the Toughbook. You can't use the external Panny charger on them... However... They are easier to jump-start after sitting for a while.

 

The flashing red light problem is what I have seen with non panasonic batterys
Even if the cells inside are good , the computer chip finds a problem and flashes the red warning light
If someone has a generic battery that works , I would like to know about it


Alex

 

Tomcat57, i agree, the aftermarket batteries are red light flashers as i found after spending $175. always try to find panasonic batteries, my batteryrefill.com battery(one year old)-no problems at all and would buy again. and for my silk purse battery-it is still pulling just over 2hrs screen full bright surfing the web. have noticed it can run for a while with 0% remaining according to windows- good enough for a work notebook.
chuck

 

I have a few aftermarket batteries that still have a charge but are not recognized... I agree.... Bad way to go.

But you're not better off trying to rebuild them either as I have found out. So now I have like 25 - 30 18650 lion batts in my shop for other projects. I thought about wiring them up for huge battery pack... Talk about extra power... But I would probably have to weld wheels on it!

 

Are factory batteries not available, or is the price simply astronomical?

 

Canha, new oem batteries are $200-$300 with a 30 day warranty!
Toughbook, where are your cells manufactured, if japan or canada i'm intrested in 9 of them to experiment with, if so pm me.
chuck
p.s. one of my tool reps liked your clock video-i think the clock is very coooool.

 

Greetings...

I stumbled over this forum and this thread after getting a CF-28 last week from a friend who recently got a CF-29. I got this 28 in great shape and 100% operational for free because he was too lazy to figure out the "red light of death" from the battery

I work for a large public safety agency that is now on it's third generation of toughbook (CF-27,CF-28 and now CF-30), using about 800 units. I also use a CF-28 at work that is still going strong on it's original OE blue tab battery after almost 5 years. It's amazing what a few refresh cycles a year can do for a battery.

Now in search of a good battery for mine...it has a generic pack in it that says "MODEL: CF48 / CF50" which is clearly rejected by the 28. Looks like I'm off to batteryrefill.com.

 

I found the same issues with generic batterys
Best is a used panasonic battery with a known lifespan



Alex

 

I picked up the Batteries Plus/Rayovac replacement about a month ago. So far, so good. I'm getting ~4.5 hrs, and it comes with a 1 year warranty. Not a cheap about $140, but I figured I'd need to pay at least that much to get 4 hrs worth of OE batteries off of e-bay, and this way I get it in one battery.

On sale right now for $120

http://www.batteriesplus.com/pc-373...CF-50 Laptop Battery - Rayovac RAYLT1062.aspx

nine

 

Thats a great way to go! I wish I had bought mine on sale, I paid $140 too. And hello to a fellow local!

 

Hello, everybody...

I've not been on here for quite a while and thought it was time to catch up. My cf-28 is still working well and the battery is still functioning almost as well as it did when I did the 'de-fib' thing with it. It likes to be topped up a little more frequently than other batteries, but no other problems with it. Now if I could just figure out why my computer has to be at room temp to boot... Always something

N_R

 

Sorry I have been busy and didn't see your post. here is the info

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-6600mAh-Bat...ryZ11169QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Still getting good run time.

 

Dewed... that's CHEAP, even for an el-cheapo knockoff brand. AND it's shipping from US!

I'd take a gamble on it...

mnem
As long as the winged monkeys don't get it FIRST...

 

Mnem.... When I make it big... I'm going to throw a party and fly everyone in... I have to met you. Not only for your knowledge... But sense of humor as well.

 

Well Rick -

I appreciate your compliments, really I do. The knowledge part... ummm... well, I'll only claim to know how little I really know. As for the humor... I've always thought that was the one thing that makes life worth living.

mnem
We are the universe made manifest in its desire to understand itself.

In other words, we exist because The Universe needed someone who could get the joke!

 

Well, the battery for my 28 came in from ebay today... 6600 MAH, $66.45 plus $26.00shipping. The shipping was a little dear, but the battery shows 4:28 hours and well worth the price...

N_R

 

It shows 4:28... Please let us know how long it actually lasts. I had a battery in a CF-29 show 4:29 remaining today... 20 minutes later is was almost halfway drained. It may need to be cycled. I would cycle yours a few times too!

 

Hi all.
"Same old story" I guess:
We have four used CF28. Orig. batteries faded after a while so i bought compatible "Energy+" batteries. They lasted a month.
Found Chinese batteries on Ebay 64USD each plus only 6USD for shipping. They lasted a fortnight. Famous redblink.
Can you, who seemingly live on this forum gather a battery FAQ? Sort of make a list of tried-and-true vendors??
Best regards
J.

 

Hi again

I suggest you all read the article on Wikipedia about Li Ion batteries
In short:
DONT do a "full cycle" like you had to do with NiCd cells, i.e.:
DONT fully charge, DONT let them go empty
Li Ion batteries are short lived, the chemicals are "self destructive"
Store them cool, and half charged!

(And they make great fireworks on youtube!)

(I made my Dell long-lasting by removing the battery and only running it on the charger. Then I destroyed my Inspiron by transporting it daily in its padded case on my bike :/ )

A strange but noteworthy thing:
Our only working new CF28 battery can only be charged by doing the BIOS's refresh cycle and interrupting at 98% charge. Normal charging ends in blinking red light after 10 mins.
The others (not under my control) have shurely been charged to 100% and have now failed.
From reading this forum it seems that the battery circuit software is critical, and it's likely to "fail" more often than the cells fail in a "compatible" battery.
Perhaps one should beware of 100% charge - it will ruin the software setting.

 

this battery stuff is kind of like the ink in your printer.

Your printer says the ink is out before it actually is, because if you try to print with an empty cartrige you damage the printer.

well in the case of a battery it could all go up in flames. People tried to ban li-ion batteries before, because of this.

 

If you are worried about a 100% charge
Set the temperature setting in the bios to high
Its a feature on the newer Toughbooks that restricts the battery to an 80% charge
At 80% the battery reads that it is fully charged and the charging stops
I use that setting on the Toughbooks that spend most of their time on someones desk
I will reduce your run-time by 20% if used on battery

Alex

 

Hi Alex
Yes, I have just happily discovered that, but too late I guess.
But where do I find proper batteries?? We must have thrown away the originals when we bought the first round so we cannot rebuild any.
Next question:
Model number is CF-28PCJ06E2, What kind of CF28 is it? (M P or S) I thought the batteries may be different on the inside....

J.

 

J, Your CF-28P is a P, also known as a MK2. The batteries for the 28 all seem to be the same, they did come in different capacities but all worked with all of the 28s with the exception of the media bay battery which did not seem to work in the MK1 or M model.
CAP

 

Jonas; Make sure you buy Panasonic branded batteries, and for the best bang for the buck, get a battery model cf-vzsu18b.

Also, These batteries are made in Japan.... so if they are for sale in Hong Kong, they are more than likely fakes.

 

Thanks for the info
My BIOS version is V200L10B, is that a good one?

Another thing that just appeard to me, "It can only be attributable to human error" as HAL9000 so politely put it:
I just realized that CF28s easy battery cycling was the wrong method when I was massaging new batteries. They should be charged for 12 hours the first time, and the "Pana" starts discharging the moment it reaches 100% which may be after 2-3 hrs.
"Doh" is a proper word, I think. I have heard it on tv.
Or "Don't use the bios method, maggot".

J.

 

Awright, now I have googled madly for several days, and I only found explicitly original Panasonic batteries on BatteryRefill.com. And those were refurbished. And not available until next year. (Well, a month passes quickly).
But I have found a lot of batteries of chinese origin. And Energy+ which I believe is somewhat american, but still all 3 failed for us.
I'll stick to BatteryRefill.com, although I have seen negative votes on this forum. Like they didn't answer my first mail...

Any other opinions?

J.