Webcams

HI All,
I have no real world experience with webcams so I would like to pick your minds. Let me explain my idea.

I plan to use a camera on the luggage rack on my Jeep Wrangler. I will monitor the camera on my on-board CF-29 navigation computer. The purpose of the camera is to give me a view over the hood at a much more favorable angle than I get from the drivers position. Often the bottom of very steep hills are obscured because they are hidden by the Jeeps hood. A camera that is high mounted will be a real advantage.

I also want the camera to monitor the rear trailer hitch to help me hook up my trailer when I am alone (most of the time). Thus, the camera needs to be mobile so I can move it from one location to the other.

I have looked at network cams, wireless cams, USB cams, Ethernet cams, hardwired TV NTSC format (analog) cams, etc. I have looked at cheap ones (<$50), mid priced ($50 - $15), and high priced ($150 up).

I still have not found a total solution. I would prefer a wireless solution but I have not found one that runs on batteries. I wound like one with glass lenses to resist the dirt and dust of the dirt tracks. Most are plastic.

The one camera that seems to meet my needs the best is the Logitech Quick Cam Orbit AF. It is a USB camera, has an autofocus glass lens, a protective clear lens cover and pans and elevates by remote control. Has good image quality. True, not all of these features are absolutely necessary but to get the good lens I have to buy the package. It costs $129 retail. Not cheap but not expensive either.

What do you folks think? Note that I am a photographer so image quality is an important issue for me just on principle. The cheap cams have horrible images. Please tell me about your experience.

Thanks, Sparky

 

I don't think these types of budget web cams are made for this type of outdoor use. Especially when you go on these trails, there will be a lot of vibrations on the outside which these web cams are not made for, so I'd imagine even if you can mount one, the pictures would look extremely blurry due to the constant vibration. Also, these $200 or under web cams are mostly USB connections, and I don't think you would want to run a wire from your computer to the roof.

For the type of activity you're looking to do, I'm afraid the cams thats suited for that will run you much higher.

 

HI Outrigger,
You can be sure that I have given your points some prior thought. Let me take them one by one.

1. Blurry Image: Not a factor because the camera will be used when the vehicle is either stopped or moving very slowly. You don't approach hills like I am talking about going fast. You don't do much of anything in a Jeep going fast.

2. The USB connections might be a problem but I do not know that for a fact. Do you have experience in this area? For sure the ones that I have experience with are not waterproof or anything proof. I'm researching ones that are. Regular ones can be sealed using RTV.

3. Why specifically would you not run a cable to the roof? BTW, my Jeep is a soft top.

4. There seems to be no doubt that I would be stressing the cameras in a way they are not intended to be used. However, they have few moving parts (no shutters or apertures) and little mass. The autofocus lens could be a problem. I do know that I am now using appliances on the vehicle that are built with similar technology that have handled the abuse. Would the cameras? I don't know. Thought I would give Logitech a call and pose the problem to them. They may have a similar camera without autofocus which is really not needed.

You are being very skeptical. Do you have experience to justify your view? That's the type of experience I really need to hear rather than opinion. Do you know of cameras that are more appropriate? I'm all ears.

I do think most your points are valid but I see work arounds that may solve most of them. I'm afraid that if I am forced to buy a really good camera it will cost a fortune. If that is the case, I will nix the project. So, I am looking for creative alternatives.

Sparky

 

You could mount the rear camera inside - attached to the top edge of the rear window.

If you use a high quality USB extension you *may* get away with it - though you may choose
to tape 12v at the rear of the vehicle, step it down to 5V, and tap into the USB cable to give
power to the webcam there (clip the 5v line prior to the computer).

Also, you may be able to find a video recorder with a broken video-cassette transport but that
works otherwise. They often came with attachments for remote control.

If you get these running it sure would be neat to see pictures and to read your report here!

HTH ... doc

 

I wouldn't use a consumer grade webcam for this either. Why not look for a used surplus Police in car video system? For about $300.00 you will get one or two high grade cameras a bullet proof vault that holds a mobile VHS VCR a master control console and all the cabling and brackets to mount the cams. You can always run the NTSC signal to a USB capture device so you can use the CF-29 as the monitor and also capture your video to both the VCR and the harddrive so you can show your friends where you have been. You will also have time and date stamp and with some systems the GPS coordinates overlayed right on the video. These systems are made durable and can survive car crashes, high speed chases and even fires. So there is no need to reinvent the wheel get what the pro's uses and leave the webcam on your desk.

 

Get an arbitrator

 

HI All,
kd4e,
I'm not sure where you are going with your idea of converting vehicle 12V at the rear of the vehicle. Why not just run a permanently installed USB cable from the computer, located on a pedestal in the front seat area, which includes the necessary power? It would end at the rear of the vehicle inside the tailgate. The camera cable would then enter from the outside thru the unzipped window where it would conect to the cable. Wouldn't this work?

As far as mounting the rear camera inside the rear window I don't think that will work. The window is plastic and well scratched and optically terrible. And the spare tire blocks the view. The only reasonable angle is gained with the camera mounted on a bracket that extends out from the top of the spare directly over the hitch. Understand that I would only use this location when hooking up the trailer then the camera would be removed and placed back on the top mounted carrier. It is not a permanent mount at the rear. I would probably use Velcro. I use Velcro a lot for these sorts of things.

Even when mounted on the top carrier, I would not keep it there all the time. It would only be there when I'm on the trail, when its not snowing or raining, and when it is reasonable to be mounted. I would take care of the camera and try not to unduly abuse it. But, I realize that abuse would be a reality when it is mounted.

tough,
You have an interesting idea. The only part of the system that would interest me are the cameras. The rest I would toss because I don't need it and don't have the space to mount the equipment. I assume you are suggessting that I buy a frame grabber which I would interface to the CF-29 via one of several possible ports so I could monitor the cameras. How would I control them?

Am I understanding you?

You say buy these things surplus. Do you know of a source? Do you have a link?

BTW, I'm still not convinced that consumer cameras would not work. None of you seem to have any actual experience, just opinions. You may be right but I'm not yet convinced. Thanks for your ideas. Keep them coming.

Thanks, Sparky

 

Geez do we have to do everything for you, the ONLY place to buy this kind of stuff is of course Ebay.com Here is a search to help you locate a few units. http://tinyurl.com/yt6eym
You want to mess around with cheap consumer gadgets (Toys) to do serious work go right ahead but if you want the serious stuff that the professianals use look into these units. Yes a USB capture device or frame grabber is what I had in mind just tee off where the inputs to the VCR would go. The unit I linked to by Kustom signals provides an overhead console that is mounted between the visors and that controls the cameras and the VCR. Since the VCR is part of the complete system I don't think you can do without it. If you are handy with Electronics you may be able to mod the system to connect directly into the laptop.

Good luck

 

HI Tough,
Thanks for the link. Actually, I found the same seller using a slightly different search object. He also has a couple of systems with two cameras but the price goes up to $450. Look, I think these systems are the real thing. I don't doubt you at all. But there are two problems. One, I don't even know if my idea is a good one. I think it is but I won't know until I try it. Second, your suggested solution is serious overkill. I don't want to record any video. I already have a better GPS and mapping system on my on-board Toughbook computer. All I want to is be able to see over the hood of my Jeep. The trailer hitch cam is only frosting. That's it.

I don't have the space for the police systems unless I can eliminate most of it. Having all that stuff in my Jeep is rediculous. The cameras do interest me but not at $325 for one. And I would still have to design a monitoring and control system for them. Probably the answer is available off the shelf but I really don't want to make this into a mini-hobby and the cost keeps going up.

The effort is well within my capabilities. I am an electronics engineer and have been designing control systems for the aerospace industry for over 40 years. That's how I know I don't want to do it if there is a simpler solution that works.

I'm not really sure why you are so negative about the consumer cameras. It's true that they are serious compromises but there is really very little to go wrong. The image quality is adequate in the better ones. I'm sure you realize these are entirely solid state, surface mount, low power digital devices. They have no moving parts except in the lens. Even there simplicity is the rule if you get a manual focus model which is all I really need. There really is not much to go wrong. This is even more true if a person were to take one apart and glue down all parts that might potentially work loose under vibration. After all, I'm not planning to drive over them and could not care less if they don't survive an accident or fire.

To repeat, all I want to do is see over my hood or stare at my trailer hitch. That's it.

Thanks for your help, Sparky

 

I have a police video setup sitting right next to me (Minus the recorder, so it has no functionality), But I'll tell you that this thing is very hardcore in the video department and could probably hold up to some pretty good abuse. Even so, I'd still make a cover for the lens, especially while used up front.

The downside to this thing, is unless you can figure out which wires do what, you'll have to get the 40lb, semi large recorder box to go with it to get a video signal.

The other thing is, this camera is serious overkill in the clarity department as well. It'll zoom in to nab a license plate from quite some distance (I think 75' or so), and read it clearly.

 

You can try some of logitech's web cams. I personally have the Logitech quickcam for notebooks. However, I can't tell you how well it'll work for outdoor use. You'll have to get a USB extension, mount the web cam inside of a protective box, because the rock chips and dust and weather elements WILL damage the lens and see how it works. I don't think anyone on this board have mounted a regular web cam on the roof of a car before but give Logitech a try. I would question the durability and longevity of the web cam though, but if its cheap, then it shouldn't be a problem.

 

I think that's probably the best advice. Just buy a regular web-cam, and put it into a plexiglass enclosure.

The only other option I can think of, is to get one of those cameras made for RVs for the same purpose (Looking at your rear bumper), and running it through a USB converter. However it may also have some large equipment to go with it.

 

HI Modly and Outrigger,
Modly,
Your comments confirm my suspicions. I'm fairly sure the system can be modified to operate without the VCR, monitor, and many of the control functions by various methods. But then what would I have? A relatively large camera for which I would have devise a sturdy mount, design or modify the controls to control the camera and devise an interface to my computer. And the system would still be serious overkill with capabilities I don't need. I just don't see the utility of such an approach but I do think it might be fun.

Outrigger,
Does your Quick Cam have glass lens elements? I know the current models do even with simple lenses. I think glass lenses are essential. I seriously need to take a close look at one to see if I can seal it against incidental weather and dust. I have to drive 40 miles to the closest dealer, a Best Buy in Santa Fe.

Right now I am considering the Logitech Quick Cam for Notebooks. There is a new version out recently. I don't know which version you have. The physical design has changed and it has a glass lens. $59.95 is the going retail price. The specs state the lens is fixed focus but some reviews indicate it is manual focus. Fixed focus would be better for me as long as the depth of field is deep enough. Small lenses such as these usually have a huge DOF when focused at infinity. Do you think the camera can be successfully sealed against dust?

This tiny camera would be a snap to mount and still be easily moved to other locations. I would not initially make a box but rather make a clear plastic shield that would stick up in front of the lens to protect it from dust, rocks and insects and could be easily replaced. If it works well I might then consider a sealed box. Experience would guide me on this. If this approach doesn't work well.......I wasted 60 bucks and some time. Not too bad.

Actually, I think this is an attractive idea and an interesting applcation of a "toy" camera. Obviousy, not everyone agrees.

Sparky

 

There are some consumer-grade video cameras with the lens movement entirely inside the case,
or there used to be.

These are excellent in such applications as they are more resistant to dust damge in the mechanism.

Also, you probably can mount one in (or perhaps find one already mounted in) a diving case.
I believe that the diving cases use optically neutral glass and they should be somewhat shock-
resistant as the seals are generally of flexible material. Add shock-mounts designed for mobile
radios between the diving case and the roof rack and you should be fine.

Just a thought! doc

 

I believe mine is glass and yes, its fixed focus.

 

HI All,
To continue my web cam saga, I bought a Logitech Quick Cam Orbit AF. It looks like the saucers wandering eye in War Of The Worlds. Kind of neat looking. It is now temporarily mounted on the top carrier on my Jeep with the USB cable running inside to my CF-29. As a web cam, it works pretty well. As an automobile camera the jury is out.

This camera has pan and tilt ability, auto focus and digital zoom (almost useless due to loss of resolution). All this is controlled on the computer display. It has a clear plastic cover that shields the lens and internal stuff from the worst of the road crud.

The current installation is only to test the camera angles to see if they will give me the view that I want. I have driven the Jeep but not on a dirt track. That comes next. I will keep you informed about how this project goes.

If I can get the right angles and the view is worthwhile, I plan to install the camera in a watertight box with a glass window.

As for durability, only time will tell. I will say that the camera seems pretty well built considering its price.

Sparky