13-14" MXM-capable notebook - thoughts?

Hello everyone,

I've long been a fan of small notebooks, having not really preferred the larger ones since I don't have much space, and being a student, move around a lot and require lots of portability. Sure, the big ones are really really powerful firebreathing monsters and can hold their own against all but the most powerful desktops (ahem, P870DM), but sometimes there still is a sizeable market for the lithe, small laptops. I own a W230SS and have also extensively tried out the P640RE, two excellent options from Clevo which are both tiny powerhouses as well as being fairly well-built.

However, the main gripe I have with these laptops is that somehow nearly all manufacturers appear to have the mentality that small = BGA GPU and CPU. Case in point: Razer Blade 14" ('thinner than a dime!') and the Aorus laptops.

I believe it is possible to do some electronic acrobatics to stuff an MXM GPU into such a small laptop, with a warning tag: putting something like a GTX 980 in such a laptop could risk severe hardware damage. Hence, something like a GTX 970M would place such a laptop well ahead of the competition.

Some analysis: such a laptop would be approximately as wide and long as current small Clevo laptops, but would be somewhat thicker (perhaps 3-4 cm thickness) to accommodate the powerful cooling set-up required. The power supply would not exceed 250-300 W (frankly, if such a small laptop had to draw 1 kW, I don't think I'd buy it - defeats the purpose of being portable). Then, it could have approximately the same expansion capability as the P640RE: 1x M.2, 1x SATA, 2x DDR4, give or take. In the end, it may look similar to how the Alienware M13x looked like, and weigh about 2.5 to 3 kg at most. The current P640RE is about 2 kg.

It would be great if Clevo took the first step in making such a small laptop that still has the capability for upgradeable GPUs (not CPUs, I think I need to be realistic: the LGA socket is huge compared to the rPGA socket). I even have a (theoretical) model number for it: the P740DM. What do you Clevo users think? Especially people like @HTWingNut, @Phoenix, @Prema and @Mr. Fox? Is this feasible, does it make sense? Would you consider such a laptop if it was well-designed and the cooling architecture well thought-out?

 

I didn't like the wording of your poll questions. Kinda like the "how many times a week do you beat your wife" question. While I don't think there'd be much demand for a laptop like this (a system in which there is a tiny, niche market), I don't necessarily think the idea is stupid.

With that said, the reason I don't think a lappy this size is the overlap into the iPad, Surface and thin laptop crowd. There is probably not much of a market for machines on this end of the spectrum to do with you want.

At 13" plus the demand for 4K screens most consumers and /or gamers won't like the size of the display, no matter what's under the hood. And if you go to an external led, then might as well buy a Mac mini , FragBox or some other mini-itx form factor desktop.

Who knows I could be very, very wrong, but my 30+ years of being a consumer in this market tell me I'm not. At least not in the US market.

Just my $0.02.

 

To me, something that might work would be a laptop with a 13" base, but a folded, pop up LCD that goes to 17+" and a fold-in full sized keyboard. That would be a winner.

 

The reason companies shifted to integrated CPU and GPU (GPUs are in fact BGA anyway when placed on desktop or MXM cards) is because it saves a large amount in height. MXM connectors are mounted to the surface of the PCB, much like DDR and M.2 connectors. These lay over the top of the motherboard. I suspect this is primarily done for mounting strength and rigidity (possibly for increased contact size compared to space), especially given the often changing nature of MXM cards (sizes changing, components located differently etc).

In order to maintain a thin-ish profile, you'd have to create a side-mounting MXM connector (ie mounts to the edge of the PCB), which as far as I know is next to impossible as the PCB itself would be too weak and you'd probably create a nasty "hinge" if the system ever bent a little.

Personally I'd would be finding a way to abandon MXM entirely and replace it with something else. Most notably, HBM could shake things up significantly as far as simple PCB space requirements which could render MXM a bit "oversized".

On that note, electrically, all of the connectors MXM currently has, are simply uneccesary now. In particular, shrinking it to 8 lanes would save a lot of space and pooling outputs completely into DP\eDP. You could even go as far as to eliminate the physical outputs entirely and shift it all over PCIE/Optimus. Yes, Optimus has downsides but many of them are fixable/minor. From a purely technical perspective, with enough collaboration the Intel iGPU could handle all of the outputs.

Basically, you need to look at things differently. I'm all for trying to make smaller and still modular systems.

As far as CPUs, BGA is not necessarily the problem either. But given the highly integrated nature of CPU + PCH now (hell, almost everything hangs off the PCH now), it's not a huge leap to integrate everything.

 

https://www.techinferno.com/index.p...-computex-2015/&do=findComment&comment=121300

 

I chose the middle option only because the idea is not stupid, although I do prefer the big monsters. I think there are probably quite a few folks out there with preferences like yours. I doubt I would buy one, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks that would. I also think it's a matter of will, not skill, and there are too many people willing to settle for a disposable, castrated BGA turdbook. If the OEMs can get away with selling stuff like that and there are enough people willing to lower their standards for sake of shaving off 4 or 5 ounces and 4 or 5 cm then there is no incentive for the OEMs to do better. By producing all BGA trash they can mitigate their losses arising from an end user's ability to do repairs and/or upgrades... replacement coming right up... buy, buy, sell, sell, sis-boom-bah.

A good example of a big little laptop is the Alienware 14, but unfortunately it was ruined by a BGA GPU. It did have a CPU socket, so they get some big points for that. Had that little monster been made with an MXM slot it would have been a good compromise since it can take a 4930MX CPU. Assuming pricing would be low enough, I'd buy a chunky little pocket rocket like that with 4930MX and 980M, but I am not even open to thinking about the idea if either one are BGA.

The thought of having 4K on a screen small enough for even the largest laptops in the world is one I personally consider dumb. I know some people need that for business purposes, but I think the actual need is rare. This is a fad, and it's absolutely miserable using one. The 4K screen I have now is the third laptop I have used with 4K and I hate 4K to pieces. It totally ruins the experience. 1080p FTW.

 

You're the boss here, @Stooj, with your EEE knowledge. I have already suspected that MXM modules are far too big and rely on some dated technology from the late 2000s. We may see some changes in the following several months to the next couple of years as GDDR VRAM is phased out in favour of HBM/HBM2, and hopefully what I mentioned above becomes less idealistic and more realistic.

I'm of the opinion that literally every add-on module in modern computers ought to use PCIe and all other buses (whether internal or external) can be done away with - including USB, SATA, HDMI, eDP, etc. We can have varying numbers of lanes for different use-cases, like 1x-4x for data storage and media transfer, up to 16x for GPUs and high-end data storage, and so on. External drive lanes could be encrypted and abstracted and thus be prevented from accessing the ultra low-level parts of the PC that GPUs are allowed to, like NVMe drives. SATA is really outdated, and even HDDs may benefit from being pushed to PCIe.

 

Thanks for your input, @Mr. Fox. With respect to your dislike for BGA, I think, realistically speaking, that it wouldn't be possible to have both pieces of silicon (i.e. CPU and GPU) socketed rather than soldered, since Intel has now done away with their incredibly useful rPGA 946/947 sockets and the only remaining socket is LGA, which would be huge for a 14" laptop. As @Stooj mentioned above, MXM itself is a large form factor and would require significant re-engineering to make it fit, and LGA would just give the engineers more headaches.

As for 4K, I think that is a resolution reserved for TVs only. Looks great on a large screen, but is a ridiculous idea on 13-17" screens. 4K on a laptop is dumb, and it's even more dumb on a smartphone which would just suck the hell out of the battery. The only laptop to date that has made 4K (actually 2.8 K) work is the Retina MacBook Pro, and that's only because OS X's scaling is really good. Windows still is terrible at dealing with HiDPI screens.

 

Having this option is the only way it would really work but with the rise of HBM soldered chips are going to become even more popular. The expense of routing the high bud width GDDR5 on the motherboard has been one of the limiting factors.

 

Funny you say that, because we've basically done that already and gone past it. The PCH for all intents and purposes controls all of that via PCIE/DMI. Basically, the "add-on" module you're referring to is literally the motherboard controlled by 2 major chips (CPU and PCH). Abstracting them back out again to separate modules would only serve to increase the size of the system again.

The idea behind modularity is to retain upgradeability. Basically, the PCH and everything connected is a system in itself. If the PCH dies, that's basically the entire motherboard needing to be replaced. We've basically reached a point where the motherboard itself isn't the "base" of the system (from a value or functionality perspective).

There's an odd attitude people seem to have when it comes to the motherboard. Primarily that it's irreplaceable or the absolutely most important component of a system which is just not the case anymore. Sure, it's super annoying to replace, but from a straight up value perspective, it's not worth any more or less than the CPU or GPU these days.

To be honest, I don't think there's a practical way to modularise the CPU without returning to a full socket. There's simply too much I/O to stick it onto it's own board (imagine an MXM type board, but with a BGA CPU stuck on it instead). On a similar note, BGA is not the problem. Implementation is the problem.

 

A 'Jetson-Style' SLI/dual Pascal would be cool in 13/14" instead of making them all BGA:

Spoiler

 

I do have a backup nvidia shield with a bluetooth keyboard that fills that niche Prema

 

Only talking about the interface not the Tegra...
MXM reference designs have died the day the mobile GTX980 came out...

 

That still adds a lot of vertical height to the system though,

 

How about getting the slot off the main PCB completely and connect the graphics card with a short riser cable?

 

That could work. It'd have to be a bit better than a typical PCIE riser cable (since PCIE only has to carry 75W whereas MXM needs as much as 150W to be safe).

 

Nice ideas, all. That PCIe riser cable idea sounds fairly good; it'd end up being more or less like how hard disk drives are connected to laptops today, except it'd be a GPU instead. All the same, whichever implementation is used, it all still boils down to the fact that smaller gaming notebooks are less upgradeable and more disposable than the larger ones (even those like the W230SS, where nearly everything but the GPU can be changed), which need not be the case.

 

Well, I am in the same situation as @SRSR3333 in a lot of ways (including where we live ) so I will love to have something like this too. Heck, I *need* it since I am not going to carry a 4.5kg laptop around when there are lighter and more powerful options around! Also, I will love to just upgrade the GPU instead of junking the whole laptop since usually the GPU is the first to become obsolete and having to get used to a new laptop again just for that seems counter-intuitive, for the lack of a better word.

That said, I am not sure if it will be exactly what we need. I am saying this as all these years I am using a MXM-compatible laptop but still unable to upgrade its GPU due to the various technical complications that comes with it (e.g. VBIOS, brand compatibility), unlike upgrading a GPU on a desktop PC. I am sure that many of you can attest to this, right?

Also, while it may be an economical option for countries like the US due to the number of resellers willing and able to sell the required parts, for us (no pun intended here), as we have only one reseller and I am still unsure if they can help with this (they are really nice though; they mentioned to me that if I needed spare parts for my NP8170, I can drop an email and they will do their best), a MXM GPU costs as much as a mid-end laptop, or at least, a really high-end desktop GPU, nullifying any cost savings that the MXM is supposed to give (i.e. savings that a new laptop GPU can give in lieu of a new laptop)

In other words, it is one thing to have a technology/feature. It is another to see if that becomes feasible or not, either for the consumers or for the manufacturers (they need to earn money too to keep the lights on...). tl;dr: My standpoint is that if these issues with MXM are also resolved, I will be more than happy to have it (alongside with additional bulk and cost, if there is). If not, I can't see much point of wanting MXM and therefore any side-effects it has like additional bulk and whatnots.

 

What do you mean by that?

 

Getting a 256bit GDDR5 bus on a motherboard takes extra layers and signal handling due to the noise it creates. This adds cost to the PCB itself, by having that bus on an MXM module you can actually potentially get away with less PCB layers and or filtering.

 

I'm sorry I still do not understand you, are you trying to tell me that Clevo never did a MXM (SLI/CF) motherboard?

 

They never did a BGA CF/SLI motherboard with the chips soldered to the motherboard, no. As I have said running the traces for the memory directly on the motherboard rather than on an MXM board design adds cost to the motherboard PCB.

 

As far as I remember, only Arorus do this with their X7 and X5 laptops... With BGA SLI...

 

There was also a Lenovo y510 that had SLI as well. But yeah, BGA SLI is not common. Aorus stays with their thin form factor by going with BGA.

 

AFAIK, mobile SLI is done purely through the PCIE bus without a dedicated bridge? (ie. like Crossfire) This makes it as motherboard agnostic as possible.
So SLI using integrated dGPUs isn't really far-fetched.

On a site-note: I'm not a fan of calling integrated dGPUs "BGA". Technically all GPUs use BGA to attach the core to a board.
We really just need to get a better term for it. I personally think "integrated dGPU" (ie Integrated into the motherboard) is probably the closest to an accurate description. AMD even did it on desktop boards (remember AM2 motherboards with GPU stuck on there?).

I could get into a huge rant about that BGA with CPUs, but not here (might upset the locals who like to hate on BGA).

 

For the higher end models they require an SLI bridge, I think for some of the lower models they let you not use it.

 

Now I understand. Except that I never told you about SLI on the BGA, which is complete nonsense.

 

I was talking about motherboard soldered GPUs and you brought up SLI/xfire.

 

@Meaker
No matter.
The topic of this thread is the sense of building ~13.3" MXM/LGA systems. I think that is the only reasonable direction for Clevo.
Unfortunately, since 17,3" P570WM Clevo produces toys only. So, still far from 13.3" MXM.

 

With respect - I think LGA CPUs on anything smaller (or thinner, for that matter) than the P750DM is a no-go. The socket itself is massive, notwithstanding the large desktop chipset needed, as well as the thermal architecture needed to cool the CPU in case some nutcase decides it'll be fun to put an i7-6700K in a 14" laptop and OC to 4.4 GHz. The laptop would simply BSOD unless it was 7-8 cm thick, which defeats the purpose of having a small screen size and hence small laptop.

 

Yes at the power envelope a 14 inch can support a desktop CPU does not make much sense, a mobile CPU has more room for cooling in that case. I'd love to see MXM, though it's a hard sell.

 

IMO technically it is possible to correctly implement in 13.3" x 1-1.5" package a LGA 2011 150W CPU with even a MXM SLI/CF.
A fundamental error in thinking is that smaller housing must have a worse cooling. Smaller housing does not mean smaller heat sink/radiator. The heat in a small package has a shorter way to go out and a smaller surface of thermal radiation of heat pipes inside of the case.
CPU socket and the PCB must be massive and rigid to not be damaged by the thermal dilatations.
Simply Clevo should end up with a copy - paste from previous models and using the new integrated applications to replace a large number of old SMD components, build a new platform adapted to the physical requirements.

 

I totally support the upgradablity an MXM card would offer with a small form factor, but socketed cpu? Not with the current sockets available. But that should be a different poll altogether.
I've also noticed most MXM laptops have the gpu on top of the motherboard which adds to the thickness. Maybe they can come up with a design to have the MXM slot/adapter on the edge so the gpu sits somewhat in line with the motherboard. but that means that a good amount of horizontal space will be taken by the MXM card so the design would have to fore go with some stuff like a 2.5" drive bay and maybe smaller battery or smaller cooling solution.

 

Is a small portable system real useful if it doesn't have long battery life? Higher size/weight doesn't really hurt if the device is sitting near the AC socket most the time.

 

Cooling is directly proportional to the amount of air running over the area of heatsink. Saying it's closer already to the outside makes no sense as heatpipes efficiently move heat already, the heatsinks on the p570wm are already at the edge of the board as well (as they are on all models).

The CPU heatsink on the p570wm weighs as much as some notebooks for a very good reason.

 

I'm sorry man. Thermal energy is transferred through vibration / collisions of particles and not as photons in a vacuum travels at the speed of light. Length matter what evidence is GPU2 heatsink in P370xM.

 

Sure, but heatpipes are the epitome of thermal energy transfer. There are hundreds of articles and papers written on the subject; a simple Google search will provide you with the answers. Furthermore, a computer, a laptop no less, isn't going to be affected much by the rate of heat transfer as much as the surface area of the heatsink, which is where the real cooling happens.

Having LGA + 2x MXM would kill any 14" laptop today unless it was 3" thick. Heck, the size of the socket and the 2x MXM modules themselves would be about as large as the chassis of the laptop leaving no space for the motherboard, let alone RAM, storage, chipset, other connections, etc.

We need to be realistic and cannot break the laws of physics for the sake of wanting everything. If we had the ideal computer today, it would be as thin as a MacBook Air but as powerful as a P870DM. The two laptops are as big (or small) as they are because of the components inside.

 

Note that we have been consolidating chipsets as time has gone on, we no longer have a north bridge chip as it used to be, that is handled by the CPU and we just have a southbridge for I/O. Then the mobile chips are on a smaller footprint these days too to help reduce board area. That has resulted in the machines we have today.

 

It is possible if someone designs a custom radiator that somehow works instead of it and heavily uses TEC and cannot operate at any load without plugging it in. It is certainly possible.

 

Then you have an intel NUC style of device that is no longer a laptop.

 

I have a question (as this idea has intrigued me). Which MXM variant are we talking about. MXM-A (the half-size/smaller one) or MXM-B? I know MXM-A is limited in which GPUs to select (as most MXMs are MXM-B), but it's something if you wanted to remove the dGPU by itself.

 

https://www.techinferno.com/index.p...-computex-2015/&do=findComment&comment=121653

 

That thing is going to be a screamer with low battery life and would fare much better as a 15 inch at least

 

Great schematic, but once again - battery life is going to suck. We're asking for a small form factor because it's portable, and if it's portable, battery life needs to be decent, on the order of a few hours rather than several minutes.
However, as Mr.Fox rightly said in that thread, I don't mind being pleasantly surprised if it actually works.

I'll believe it when I see it, but for now, SLI in 13.3" will be an out-of-reach idea for me.