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    7970m wait for fix? or switch to 680m?

    Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by lowfreq, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    I have no doubt AMD is trying to solve the issue. The big question that is still unanswered is wether it can be fixed with software update, or is it a hardware issue.
     
  2. BLUEFISH44

    BLUEFISH44 Newbie

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    I hope they sort it out soon since my 9170 with a 7970m arrives today.
     
  3. Mighty_Benduru

    Mighty_Benduru Notebook Consultant

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    To me, Clevo's design is flawed since there is no work around this issue. If it is not flawed, there won't be so many threads like this. I think this is probably a cheaper way for them to design and manufacture the motherboard (with less chips, I guess). Of course, ATI is not going to come out and say," My Enduro has problem so please don't rely 100% on our technology." But still, Clevo committed their design into a brand new unproven technology. Every other manufacturer has a work around, just not Clevo.

    @Bluefish44
    I'm very sure AMD is aware and working on this issue right now. Like I mentioned, can they fix it, and when? To me, even if it gets fix, and it still takes ATI as long as Nvidia to fix their Optimus (which is about 1.5 years), that's enough reason for me to spend the extra $245 for the upgrade.
    Your 30 day return starts on your shipping date. So, I'm assuming it's going to be a couple of days ago. You still have time to decide.
     
  4. Xtrophy

    Xtrophy Notebook Consultant

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    I'm gonna say the same thing I have said before about this. Although it was probably cheaper, there is nothing wrong with the design of it. The 680m works fine, as does the 675 both support Optimus running through that same inline system. They don't sport the same issues.

    Clevo, coming from a 675 generation used the same system because Enduro was supposed to work correctly. Their assumption was that Enduro would work as intended, so they designed the system in a way that had been very successful in Optimus systems.

    Saying that this is Clevos fault for not designing a work around is basically saying that it is their fault that they didn't assume the technology would be broken. This design has worked for them in the past, they had no reason to deviate just because AMDs technology was coming out. That is of course, if it had worked correctly. It didn't however, and now we have this problem.
     
  5. arcticjoe

    arcticjoe Notebook Deity

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    People keep referring to Nvidia's Optimus problems that took years to fix, but they were completely different kind - there were no utilization issues and you could force Optimus to work properly. With Enduro there is no known workarounds at the moment, so situation is a lot different.
     
  6. Mighty_Benduru

    Mighty_Benduru Notebook Consultant

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    Yes, you are correct. It's a different kind of problem from the technical aspect.

    However, the purpose of the comparison is that from the consumer point of view, it's the same. It's a technology that's not working right currently, and consumer gets stuck with it until the manufacturer fix it. Well, it's more like Clevo consumers got stuck with the problem, since Clevo is the only one that does not have a work around.

    If I have a work around and force the 7970m to work as it's suppose to be, I could care less about when ATI or if ATI comes out with a fix. Just quite frustrated that I have to spend more money and be out traveling without a gaming laptop for the next few weeks.
     
  7. sha7bot

    sha7bot Company Representative

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    Just a heads up: AMD is duplicating the issue in their labs and is working on a fix. No ETA at this time.
     
  8. Vahlen

    Vahlen Notebook Evangelist

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    Thanks for the update! It's nice to see that retailers are still taking interest in this issue, now hopefully AMD can get it fixed before our brand new super expensive hardware is out of date :mad:.

    The main thing that worries me is why has AMD not made a statement publicly about the issue if they are successfully duplicating the issue in their labs?
     
  9. sdavies86

    sdavies86 Notebook Consultant

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    they made a tweet stating they know about it and are looking into it. i cant blame them for trying to keep some dignity about this.
    "Just a heads up: AMD is duplicating the issue in their labs and is working on a fix. No ETA at this time."
    ^^ Is this public? Or between AMD and Sager, Sager and Resellers, and resellers and us? :)
     
  10. sha7bot

    sha7bot Company Representative

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    Nothing "Official" from AMD. It's not official until they have Beta Drivers ;)
     
  11. sdavies86

    sdavies86 Notebook Consultant

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    Ok :) Lets hope for some beta drivers this Sept. Ill do some benchmarking before and after when i get mine :)
    Has anyone tested any other games? Anyone think the 7970m will play Crysis 3 (after fix)?
     
  12. Mighty_Benduru

    Mighty_Benduru Notebook Consultant

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    Hah... I'm going to look like such a retard if the fix comes out in a few weeks. Well, good luck to you guys :)
    KAPLA
     
  13. pirateninj4

    pirateninj4 Notebook Guru

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    Thanks for this, information from you guys is worth gold in these forums regarding these issues.

    Way to look out for your customers.
     
  14. Jettion

    Jettion Notebook Enthusiast

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    Nice to listen. What prevented AMD do it _before_ the release of videocard on the market? Rhetorically
     
  15. harmattan

    harmattan Notebook Evangelist

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    Let's take a step back and consider that statement... "Let's hope for some beta drivers this Sept." 7970m was release in April... April for F's sake and we're still waiting for working drivers. This is getting absurd. I think at this point, AMD's driver team has written off ever finishing well-working drivers for the 7xxxm series and have moved on to other models. They've done this several times before and are doing it now, no doubt.
     
  16. Vahlen

    Vahlen Notebook Evangelist

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    I think if they take that route this time there will probably be a class-action lawsuit place against them. There is grounds for it given the substantially lower then advertised performance due to manufacturer defect.
     
  17. Seanzky

    Seanzky Notebook Evangelist

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    I don't think so because no one will know for sure if they do neglect their own products. That's internal business that would have to be leaked for a lawsuit to happen. What would happen if that were true though is their market share dropping further. For sure.
     
  18. hackness

    hackness Notebook Virtuoso

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    The best time to go for AMD is probably upon HD8000 release, 5 months is pretty much almost half way there...
     
  19. RigoPH

    RigoPH Newbie

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    Agreed. At least I am not the only one that thinks everyone is being too condescending about the situation.

    "Hey AMD, please give us some working drivers for a product we spent a lot of money on 3 months ago, and still doesn't work?" Seriously, what the f*** is this???

    "Thanks for looking this issue!" Oh Really? Put some real pressure and they will fix it.

    You all should be VERY pissed off. The video card was released in APRIL..... APRIL, and YET we don't have it working properly. I don't care if they have only acknowleged the situation now, it was never supposed to happend on the first place.

    I am running out of patience. If the next driver release in a week or two won't fix this problems I will return my 7970m and get a 680m. I will then actively promote the Nvidia card and advice every single person that is looking for a high end notebook to NOT consider AMD as an option.

    This situation is ridiculous. I have always, I repeat, ALWAYS supported AMD on my purchases, and thats the way they treat their customers? Not gonna make the same mistake again.
     
  20. Seanzky

    Seanzky Notebook Evangelist

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    Lol. Seriously, you are wasting precious energy and a fraction of your life over nothing. If you're getting a 680M anyway, just smile and relax a little and do it. You have a choice. Be angry if someone is putting crap in your food or holding a gun to your head. Otherwise, you're wasting your breath. I'm frustrated, at the very most, that now I can't switch to 680M. But hey, guess what, life goes on and before you know it a bigger, badder and better card will come out. If you focused your energy on saving money, when that card comes out you will be one of the first in line to get it.

    Believe me, AMD's f-ups will not go unnoticed forever. They will pay for it one way or another. Just don't let it be at the expense of your health. :) Calm your heart down.
     
  21. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    Its funny how people say they will never buy AMD or NVIDIA again. Never is a long time and what will their options be, when both brands have failed them (both do at times). I quess they enjoy gaming with their Intel iGPUs :D. AMD will fix the issue if it can be fixed (at a reasonable cost). If not, people are supposed to take the issue to the reseller they bought their laptop from, and demand for a refund or a replacement. If someone is to sue AMD, its the resellers not the laptop owners.
     
  22. Mighty_Benduru

    Mighty_Benduru Notebook Consultant

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    Indeed...... I will also take this advise too. Actually, I'm more pissed off that I will be out on a three week business trip without a gaming computer and had to go thru the hassle of RMA'ing for an upgrade, than paying the extra $245 for Nvidia.
     
  23. Vahlen

    Vahlen Notebook Evangelist

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    That's not quite accurate, a good comparison to this situation would be if GM manufactured an engine line that grossly underperformed what it was advertised as. It would just need to be determined that a manufacturing defect was the sole cause in the loss of performance, a recall would then need to be issued if it could not be corrected through repairs.

    The loss is quantifiable and consistent in nearly every case, those are the absolute 2 key factors here. By continuing to sell/market the product without taking reasonable action through either providing a solution or refund AMD is essentially making sales AT THE MOMENT with intent to defraud. Granted that may sound far fetched but consumer law is an extremely broad and encompasses many variables specifically for situations similar to this (see Nvidia 8xxxx series lawsuit).
     
  24. Seanzky

    Seanzky Notebook Evangelist

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    The laws are very different for cars and computer components in terms of suing the companies behind them. Computer components don't flip sideways or have brake failures. I don't want to argue about this, but I can ask any lawyers here in my firm if anyone is really interested.
     
  25. RigoPH

    RigoPH Newbie

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    Getting a 680m was not in my plans, because I couldn't justify the price difference for almost the same performance. I would rather apply that money elsewhere.

    What I am questioning is this passive attitude towards AMD. Especially when such a big period of time has passed and they have done nothing to address their defective product. Actually I'm a very calm person, and like you said, life goes on, and that is why I don't like spending my energy with a product that doesn't work properly.


    And well, like you said, someone DID put crap on my food, a very exotic spice called Enduro, and now I can't eat it properly. LOL.

    Edit: Wrong quote.
     
  26. Seanzky

    Seanzky Notebook Evangelist

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    I meant actual crap in actual food... and that you were very, very hungry. Lol.

    But yeah, don't sweat it because a newer GPU is always around the corner. And like I said in another post, think of this as a learning experience, albeit an expensive one --we're on the same boat, after all. When that new card comes out and it's AMD vs. nVidia all over again (like round #92491312412312), but this time check to see if Enduro is fixed yet and if the price is what you're looking for or not. AMD will feel it regardless because of this screw-up. Whether they fix it or not, it's up to them, but it will affect their future and their market share. That I can pretty much guarantee.
     
  27. Peekachu33

    Peekachu33 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Well I'm quite peachy with my swap, the temp reduction alone was enough to satisfy me, I have a bit of heat paranoia as I've cooked a MB before :) But, its good to hear that AMD are working on a fix. That said, they'll have to really impress me with the 8000 series before I consider swapping back. Enduro + 3 months with no driver support is mostly ridiculous. Don't think Nvidia has a 680m driver yet either, but they're not suffering the same issues as the 7970m. I don't blame Sager/ Clevo for this either, as someone else mentioned, they likely thought that the same internal layout would work for Enduro as it did for Optimus, but that simply wasn't the case.

    The biggest gripe I have with BOTH of these technologies, is that we are paying for premium GPUs installed into bleeding edge laptops. What makes either company think that we are worried about power conservation? I want the option to just have it right off. Its nice that you can do most of that with the Nvidia control panel, but there are still instances where it kicks into the Intel chip by default that you need to correct.

    Edit: Oh, and in reference to earlier discussions, GW 2 capped at a constant 60 FPS with everything cranked up except that horrid bloom that gives me a headache. With the frame limiter off, it went higher, but 60 is fine. ANet really did some nice optimisation in the last few BWEs.
     
  28. hackness

    hackness Notebook Virtuoso

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    They always try to make use of the additional GPU technology, like 3D or Optimus or Sli/Crossfire, it seems like the only company that didn't make use of additional GPU technology on the gaming series is Asus. Since they offer regular (No optimus/No 3D/ No Sli nothing) model and 3D model. Once Enduro becomes Mature like the Optimus, I believe we'll quit seeing complains.
     
  29. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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  30. sdavies86

    sdavies86 Notebook Consultant

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    Anyone try it?
     
  31. Doryndoran

    Doryndoran Notebook Enthusiast

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    I just tried it and I get the same awful performance in World of Wacraft. My guess is that its the same thing for other games that were affected by Enduro.
     
  32. columbosoftserve

    columbosoftserve Notebook Evangelist

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    Well that's it, I'm done with AMD. I'm sick of waiting for a fix that just feels like it isn't going to come. I think we've seen their true colours this time round.
     
  33. Nick11

    Nick11 Notebook Consultant

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    I agree 100%..... I just hope to got my p150em is compatible with nvidia's next line of graphics card.

    As with these utilization issues I can barely play some of the new games at medium settings..... $2000 well spent *sigh*.
     
  34. columbosoftserve

    columbosoftserve Notebook Evangelist

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    I hear ya. The annoying thing is that I was originally going to go with the 680m but upon seeing the results of the 7970m, I changed my order. I was aware of the Enduro issue before buying but I had the naive attitude of thinking it would be fixed in a fashionable timeframe. Oh, how I was so very wrong...
     
  35. Exmortis

    Exmortis Notebook Consultant

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    Ask how long it took Nvidia to solve their issue they had, with optimus? Trust me, AMD will fix it, but it isnt just "hey look we left out this one line of code". They must reverse engineer the problem back to find its source, what is causing it, then what can fix it in ALL situations.

    Nvidia and AMD are pretty much the same, they will solve the issue, usually, but these types of issues are rarely easy to solve.

    How ever as customers, we are to speak with our voices and wallets, thus you have spoken with yours.
     
  36. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    They could have issued a statement that these issues WILL be solved, thus alleviating the uncertainty and insecurity their customers are feeling. Apparently they don't have the confidence to make the commitment.
     
  37. sdavies86

    sdavies86 Notebook Consultant

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    I wish thats they posted the "fixes" included in the updated drivers. I too wish that they were more transparent about the actions and progress made.
     
  38. hackness

    hackness Notebook Virtuoso

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    It doesn't matter how long NVIDIA took to fix their Optimus issue now because it's all in the past, however what stands here is that the optimus is fixed and the Enduro has just started being looked into. So right now you either choose a product that's certainly working as it should be or choose a product that still requires serious fixing.
     
  39. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    And is 300€ cheaper... If things were that black and white, I would have switched to 680m a long time ago. The price of the 680m is close to outrageous. And the 675m is still worse than a 7970m most of the time.
     
  40. arcticjoe

    arcticjoe Notebook Deity

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    Nvidia's optimus issue was related to game detection, you could force Optimus to use Nvidia card and play games without issues. With this enduro issue its not even clear why there is an under-utilization issue and whether it can be fixed at all without a change of hardware.
     
  41. arcticjoe

    arcticjoe Notebook Deity

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    I would happily pay £300 to upgrade to 680m now. Seriously, I bought a top of a range gaming laptop and have done little to no gaming on it because of this issue. For what I currently use it for I could have saved myself £600 and gone for a laptop with a weak GPU instead.
     
  42. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    Why not demand your reseller to switch the card?
     
  43. arcticjoe

    arcticjoe Notebook Deity

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    i bought the laptop over 3 months ago, its way past the 30 day swap out period. Worst thing is that I cannot easily sell this laptop for any decent amount of money until this enduro issue is fixed - it will either be sent back to me by whoever bought it (with a negative feedback to boot), or i will have to sell it at a pretty severe discount.
     
  44. hackness

    hackness Notebook Virtuoso

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    In your case,wait for the fix to come out might be a better choice. But no one can say for sure if AMD will fix this soon or going to fix it.
     
  45. Montage

    Montage Notebook Evangelist

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    You weren't aware of the Enduro issue back then? Then they sold you a defective product. I don't think any 30 day swap period holds in this matter.
     
  46. sdavies86

    sdavies86 Notebook Consultant

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    ask, there are many resellers on here. if it can not be fixed, Sager should demand a recall and offer everyone the upgrade at cost (without shipping), and in turn get reimbursed by amd. IF this can not or will not be fixed. I am still crossing my fingers.
    I havent seen any tech shows cover this... you guys should message your favorite host about this issue and if you have video documentation to show the effects, even better.
     
  47. Srikar

    Srikar Notebook Evangelist

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    You act as if games are completely unplayable on your laptop. Unless you play BF3 and only BF3 online, it's really not that horrible of an issue.

    Maybe I'm just more optimistic since I came from a 5870m and even with Enduro, it runs like a champ in comparison. But really, a few dips in framerate isn't completely unplayable. :/

    Max those games out. You'll get roughly the same framerate regardless of the settings. Enduro reduces power the less demanding the game is.
     
  48. vlps5122

    vlps5122 Notebook Enthusiast

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    you guys really over exaggerate the issue. i mean sure enduro sucks but not being able to game on the 7970m da ? i play bf3 on ultra 40+ fps usually. alan wake 40 fps on all high settings, gw2 50+ fps on all high settings, etc, etc.
     
  49. Fwam

    Fwam Notebook Enthusiast

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    This is a massive cause for concern.
     
  50. TrantaLocked

    TrantaLocked Notebook Deity

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    I know what you mean, but like people say, the 7970m sucks scaling wise. Yeah, you could max EVERY THING to insane levels and get 99% because the 7970m is forced to turn on all of it's logic cores, but when you lower settings, the 7970m says "oh, there are less numbers to crunch, let me just turn this and this off and cut utilization in half so you get no performance increase with crappier visuals!"

    I used to be a 7970m defender, but I am going to be honest: Enduro in it's current state is crap. How it or the Sager 7970m got through testing is beyond me. How a dysfunctional product that affects all switchable 7000m cards got released to the public is beyond me. The longer the wait with no updates from Sager and AMD, the more I wish I not only didn't have the 7970m, but also not have a Sager at all. The Alienware at this point, with the 7970m in it, sounds very appealing for the few extra hundred. If I could go back, I would. I really, really would. Yes, it's true; the 7970m can perform really well, but some times performs worse than the GTX 675m depending on the in-game settings. The performance we are getting is some times worth it, but some times worth half of what we paid for. Because we aren't even getting what we paid for, AMD and Sager/Clevo all have the responsibility to fix the problem.
     
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