A petition for a better bios for 9260 (D900C/901)

Calling the suppliers up to request a better bios for our rigs is like Pixxing in the wind. So I am staring a petition hoping that all the owners of 9260 (D900C/901) on this forum will sign. Just log in and say Yes we want a better Bios.

This is an Intel based board and even Intel, which does not support overclocking, at least have a PERFORMANCE option on their mobos. Incidentally they have beta software for overclocking their boards now. Downloaded it but alas it did not work.

I know zodttd is working on a tutorial for overclcoking the 9260 and from what I have read, he has the knowledge to do it. zodttd, if you need a guinea pig, just let me know.

There are people on this forum like AlanP with an unlocked chip, yet they can not do anything with the multiplier. They should at least have that option.

I have the E6700 and after looking at Rmclock it shows that my CPU goes up to x10 max yet it is setup at x6. It is a locked one so I don’t know much about that. I personally could not make heads or tails of Rmclcok when I first downloaded it (hey I come from the bios overclocking school), but I figured a few things out. Could not get any thing to take, maybe I was doing something wrong. Clockgen, same thing put in the right PLL and still it reverts back to default.

Everything is locked in the Bios including Hardware Virtualization which is built in our CPUs. Only way you can enable it is via the bios, what am I saying, WHAT BIOS?

The suppliers’ claim to fame is that overclcoking will damage the computer. Well for starters not everyone is going to overclcok.

Second most will set it to Performance if it were an option in the Bios.

Third I seriously doubt that if someone paid as much as we did for our rigs is going to do anything to ruin his/her computer or even send it back for repair since it take forever to get back.

Fourth, most of the potential oveclockers, at least from what I have seen here including me, have overclocked before and have temp monitoring tools. I use Core Temp and Riva Tuner to check my Temps. I have not overclcoked my GPU yet. My computer runs around 46-47C for CPU and 50-52 GPU when playing games for a long time and I don’t have a cooler either.

Fifth, It is very hard to damage anything in your rig since it has enough sensors that if you go overboard, it will simply shut down or reboot. Widows will also blue screen you if it does not like something you are doing.

Sixth, It is my computer, mine, if I want to overclcok it, I will be doing so on my accord and if I ruin a part, well I’ll buy another one since I have no one to blame but myself, right?

Seventh, Dell freaking Dell, has an overclocking option IN THE BIOS on their XPS model.

Eighth, If they think overclocking is not a fact of life in the computer world, well they need to think again. Better yet all they have to do is read this forum. Even Intel admitted to overclocking and are offering overclocking software for their mobos.

Please sign the petition and when we have enough signatures, I’ll email Sager and Clevo and invite them to look at this thread. For those who bought it from XoticPC etc.. can send an email to their sellers..

Power to the people, err I mean power to the 9260 (D900C/901) owners
Thank you

 

For what this is worth you have my full support!! Signed! Completly agree we need a more complete bios!! This is power monster that come with half a bios... what gives...

 

yes a better bios would be nice! maybe even more stable than the one before!

 

Thank you Student1 and midnitdragoon for your support. Before this thread gets too many views and hopefully replies, I would like to clarify something. I am not requesting a better bios solely for overclocking purposes. I would like to see at least a good bios where the system will run at its potential with the option of at least Performance and Default settings. If anything, in my opinion the system is underclocked. Also I would like to have the option of turning on the Hardware Virtualization and for those who paid for the Extreme Unlocked CPU I would like to see the option of setting the multiplier that will go up to x12. I am thinking of upgrading to that kind of a CPU. Bottom line is, we all would like a better more flexible bios that will let us overclocking it (if we choose to) at least via programs like Clockgen.

 

I hate to play the devil's advocate, but only slightly less than I LOVE to play the devil's advocate

So a question specifically to you, Wackman...

If Clevo were to provide an overclocking BIOS, but you first had to click an irrevocable agreement that you release them from any warranty coverage of the CPU, motherboard, and memory, would you be satisfied?

Just curious

(This assumes, of course, that they could figure out a way to permanently lock in such an agreement, so it's just a hypothetical question. )

 

LOL G T S I can see that you hate to play the devil's advocate, but only slightly less than you LOVE to play the devil's advocate.

In response to your question YES I WILL sign such an agreement.

I have been building computers (desktops) since 1996 and have been overclcoking them since. I am yet to damage a component. I am still using a computer I built six years ago. I have a 2.4 Northwood CPU in it that I have overclcoked to 3.4 running a MSI Neo2 865P motherboard. It is rock solid, no heat issues using stock cooling. I did not even adjust the voltage to the CPU. I simply dropped the freq. to the Ram and got it up to 3.4 without any voltage increase what so ever. In other words, at least in my experience, if you do not increase the voltage you would be hard pressed to fry anything or run into heat issues. Now if you get a power spike and somehow makes its way into the internal organs, stock or not you will fry something. Oh and I have a 6800GT in it. It still kicks ass. As far as normal operations, I swear I think it is faster than my 9260. Also no hiccups in this baby. They claim that the life of an overclcoked CPU is 10 years or so. Well I have only four more to go to prove their theory..lol Mind you when I am home I use the six years old one.. Unless it is a newer game

 

I agree, they should definitely unlock some of the features in the BIOS. I was really surprised at the lack of BIOS options compared to my Dell [this is my first Clevo]. Whats wrong with enabling the virtual instruction support?

 

Right on, Wackman...I appreciate an overclocker whose willing to take on the responsibillity of the risks, as minimal as they may be

I suspect that one of the concerns from Clevo's point-of-view, would be that they are already pushing the cutting edge of what's doable in a notebook (I mean, c'mon...desktop CPU's in a notebook, and with the latest revision, okaying QUAD core! ).

Considering that Clevo's have usually been priced extremely comptetively, I wonder if part of that is due to being secure in the knowledge that their limited BIOS would help to reduce warranty claims from the less experienced overclocker out there? Just a thought...

Anyway, I'm all for opening up the BIOS to allow folks to tinker with as many settings as possible, but I think your petition would carry SIGNIFICANTLY more weight if actual owners would be willing to sign using their real names (and perhaps providing the serial numbers of the notebook) to the petition.

One final question, as it would likely factor into Clevo's decision: Knowing what you know now with regard to the limited BIOS, do you regret buying a 9260? In other words, would you have bought a different laptop if you knew upfront that the 9260's BIOS was locked? Money talks, so any indication that it's costing them sales would certainly be a mark in your favor. Only trouble is...there really isn't any other manufacturer offering the kind of cutting-edge stuff that Clevo does, so where would you turn to?

 

G T S, I like your style and your thinking.

I like your Idea about giving the name and serial for the computer.

I am wondering if there is a way, on this forum, to make it where we have only one page where people can sign their names on. Any suggestions?

As for your question whether I regret buying a sager NP9260 knowing what I know now about the Bios. The answer is YES. I was expecting at least a Performance option.

As a matter of fact I have been surfing the net looking at other Laptops. Asus has one, Acer Ferrari, Toshiba, Dell etc.. None really offer the hardware that this one does, but at least Dell offers more options including Overclocking.

I keep seeing people on this forum asking for opinion whether to buy NP9260 and whether they should buy the M5790. Now everybody has to make a living and all and I don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade, yet for those who are thinking of buying those computer or at least the M5790, I can’t help but think that they might be better off with a Dell. Given the bios issues..

Just like everyone else here I paid hard earned money for my NP9260, yet I keep toying with the Idea of selling it and maybe getting a Dell. I mean I don’t see the benefits of Raid0 on this machine, with or without Raid it runs the same in games. Now for some, Raid1 or 5 is useful, to me it is not. 7950GTx, Dell offers that. 7200 RPM HD, Dell Offers that etc.. So where is the benefit here at least for gamers? I don’t know. A better Bios will improve things? Hell ya..

Supposedly we bought the best and fastest Laptop out there. Well I don’t see it. Like AlanP said: “They gave you a Viper and put a motor scooter transmission in it.”

Oh and I want to add that we still do not know if the 8800M will actually work in our systems or not..

 

just so you know, dell only has that overclocking option for thweir "special model" of the t7600 that is 100 bucks more and is overclockable.

 

Your CPU is x10. The x6 is the multiplier when it speed-steps to save power.

RAID-0 makes a big difference and this computer also has the capability for 3 HDDs (RAID or not) which is unique amongst all notebooks that I've seen

7950's are SLI which you'll only find on a few high-end machines. If you bought this lappy and didn't go with SLI then I'm not sure why you invested the extra money.

Last time I checked a DELL XPS was more expensive than a 9260 and didn't have a desktop CPU (fast FSB) nor 800MHz RAM (the mobile chipset can't even support this).

So I"m really confused on why you wouldn't recommend a 9260 over any other option in the world today. You sound mostly sour grapes on your overclocking -- which is still achievable even without the ability to change the multiplier. You'll get the biggest bang for your overclocking dollar on the GPUs anyway... not the FSB.

/not signed

 

If you look at the bios along with CPU selections and testing required for the matrix, it would be easier to lock the processor to a known and test for it, and then go on with the next product. However having said that, most small Companies out there would love to get a lock on the market from time to time, and I don't get the impression that the numbers that Clevo is shipping is very close to the numbers that some of the big Lap builders ship. I can't recall too many times that a Company resisted blowing away the field, but there is the example of Nvidia idling to the let AMD/ATI catch up, and Intel allowing for AMD to climb back into the processor ring. There are times that churn in the marketplace also helps promote sales, at the expense of frustrated consumers that got burned... But that also can be a dangerous game, as some consumers don't forget who burned them...
For example, if a vendor was to "me-too" the existing Clevo formula, and also provided a "Gigabyte-type" overclock bios, then the existing Clevo owners would generally favor this new player as being more consumer friendly and fair.... I know I am listening and looking for the next "Dell". Let's face it, Dell reworked themselves to cater to the market, got big and then proceeded to forget what got them there. I bet I'm not the only one in this forum that was previously a Dell owner, that does not wish to go back to the Company that Dell has become..... This was an example and was not an attempt in anyway to trash Dell, they can do that quite well themselves, thank you very much....

By the way, I recommend visiting the Eurocom thread here in this forum. In passing the comments regarding the r&d on the Clevo with a Quad sounded like total confidence in the capabilites of the exisitng motherboard to handle the chip. The wording did not imply any doubt at all.... Interesting....

Let's assume 1) Intel is not stupid, 2) the G0 stepping probably was not created for Desktop Machines, 3) Intel probably has a reasonable idea of the capabilities of Laptops in the market place now and soon to come, and yet they modified the existing processors to lower the Temp rating to fill a need somewhere... and I'd be shocked if the 1333 fsb, which uses the fsb speed to drop the multiplier is all that got in their bag of tricks.... hmm, totally done with 1066 already? Probably not quite yet...

 

Ok, just my two cents. From what I've been told by the author of MemSet32 (a memory/MCHBAR tweaking tool for Intel chipsets) the BIOS in the Clevo D900C I have is preventing the tool from reading the registers values from the memory controller.

What does this all mean? You can't change memory timings via software due to the BIOS. And theres no option for memory timings within the BIOS. So if you want 1:1 timings of 4-4-4-12 from your shiny DDR2 800MHz, you're screwed. Try things for yourself, maybe it's just my BIOS I got from Eurocom v1.00.04 ( http://www.eurocom.com/support/drivers/bios/d900c_bios.htm) ...MemSet32: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92190

When you run it, you'll notice many values won't show up. If you read the very long thread, towards the end there's others with this same problem. It's due to the BIOS it seems. Not sure why to be honest.

Then in my attempts to overclock the D900C via software such as ClockGen, I read up on the PLL being used in this model. It seems by all indications to be a ICS 954227. The hard to find datasheet on this ICS can be found in the attachment in this post. There seems to be some sort of watchdog timer, or register bit thats protecting from overclocking. No matter what I try, even the M570U overclocking bit in the PLL, nothing works. I believe the same issue with the BIOS not giving access to the memory controller, is not allowing us to overclock via SOFTWARE! I could be completely wrong about this one though. If someone wants to read over the ICS datasheet and happens to know why programming this model seems to corrupt the screen and freeze the notebook, let me know please! This same thing occured with the M570U until it was found that a bit in a PLL register needed to be enabled to allow software overclocking. Issue is with the D900C there doesnt seem to be such a bit unless its within a reserved register!

One more thing, the memory verification is annoying. Most have a quick boot option to skip this.

I don't expect overclocking options within the BIOS. But at least let me try such things through software I install to access the hardware.

Btw, I don't know how much say Eurocom even has in this. It's been mentioned they might be able to help. I don't know if Eurocom produces the Phoenix BIOS updates or if they're handed down the foodchain from Clevo. If Eurocom is able to produce their own BIOS, please let us/me know. Even if nothing can be done in this situation, its always good to know. Thanks.

 

Kozi: I had AlanP disable SpeedStep by disabling C1E through a tool called RMClock at www.rightmark.org. It allows most people with "Extreme" Core 2 Duos to select whichever multiplier is within it's range, extending beyond the normal highest setting, to allow for overclocking.

 

I vote in favour of the petition. A simple performance option would be very nice.

Nevertheless, I don't really care the much for overclocking, especially the CPU. But I do care for upgradability. I hope that Clevo mantains the D900/1c formula/chassis with no modifications for a long time. Otherwise it would hurt me bad. Why? Becouse the rule of buying mid/high lappy every 2.5 years instead of buying a "monster" every 4 years would win and I would loose.

Indeed if I was one of the D900T users I would never buy Clevo again. Hope the story doesn't repeat it self. Two board revisions, one new model D900K etc etc a mess in such an expesinve lappy. People tell all the time how reasonable is the d900c price, I think it is simply ok considering the upgradability issues that still exist and it does not make me a follower.

Trance

PS: I'm following Gophn posts and indeed he seams to know more then what he tells in a particular moment in time (maybe it is instinct). For instance he bought the D900K and not the T (avoiding all the mess, maybe he was lucky). And he is not jumping into the D900c bandwagon after so many prises, I wonder why? (teaser)

 

First and foremost I want to thank everyone who replied to this thread so far.
zodttd: Hey man thanks for sharing the information with us and for working so hard to help in improving the performance of this machine.
I am glad at least AlanP was able to set the multiplier. Unfortunately I don’t have an extreme chip, just have the E6700.

Mr. Eurocom, first let me compliment you for taking the time to start your own thread, which I was going to post a reply to (no need for that now..lol), and for listening to our concerns. Most of all I want to thank you for offering to help. It is refreshing to see a seller who is willing to take the time and effort to listen to the consumer’s complaints. In my book that goes a long way. Pity Sager and Clevo for that matter do not do that.

I bought my laptop from Sager and to be honest I did not know who Eurocom was, now I know better. A lot of others bought their laptops from sellers other than Eurocom and for you guys to do the work and provide a better Bios for someone like me and not get compensated for it, is hardly fair. I insist on paying you guys for your troubles. Like AlanP said on your thread, he as well (I am guessing) as a lot of others who want a better bios, I would think would not mind paying for it, if nothing else as a token of appreciation.

I will send you an email tomorrow evening with a shorter version like you suggested outlining features and reasons.

Once again thank you for taking the time and doing Sager’s and Clevo’s work for them..lol

 

Well guys it looks like good news from Mr. Eurocom. I will be putting a list together for functions to be added to the Bios and the reasons, which so far is overclcoking.. Just kidding LOL Since two heads are better than one, three are better than two etc.. and since there are a lot of savvy computer operators out there I would appreciate it if others would share with me what features they want in the hopefully new and improved bios, and why. It is an opportunity for us to get a much better bios and unlock the potentials of this beast. Please let me know what features you want, I’ll compile and send it to Mr. Eurocom. I’ll be writing up the list tomorrow evening but will wait a couple of days so as many people as possible can get in on it..

Thanks

 

If you go the extra mile for us 900C owners, Eurocom or not. I will not hesitate to buy Eurocom next time I purchase. I will be a Eurocom customer in the future, definitly.

 

I like the different tack taken from Eurocom. Maybe there is a sales group listening to the market.

For the record, I was able to turn of the step down feature, but I don't like the CPU heat rise as a trade for the minor gain [it continues to run full, when the Laptop is idling, so what?]. I WAS NOT able to oc using a multiplier change, because the program only offers up to 11x. I would need a 12x option to bump nicely. Didn't want anyone getting overexcited. BTW a user upgrade to X6800 is about $ 520 US +/- shipping for a brand new chip thru Ebay. A used chip would probably be in the mid $ 300 range.

I wouldn't suggest going that route if you have a E6700, as it is a really minor gain, and does bump up the temps a bit...

 

Hi Wackman, what kind of things have you lasked in the petition for a better BIOS to Eurocom?

I believe that are a lot of things that can be better. Mainly two modes Standard and Performance where performance would unlock the following amongst others

* FSB Freequency
* FSB Strap
* PCIE Frequency
* DRAM Frequency
* DRAM Command Rate
* DRAM Timing Control
* CPU multipliers
* CPU Voltage
* CPU PLL Voltage
* CPU Voltage Reference
* CPU Voltage Damper
* DRAM Voltage
* FSB Termination Voltage
* NorthBridge Voltage
* VCore Voltage

Trance

 

DFTrance, I pretty much requested what you outlined. Anyway here’s what I asked for in the new bios.

1- CPU Clock Ratio (CPU multiplier).
Reason: For the unlocked chips like the X6800 to set the multiplier. I eventually plan on upgrading the CPU.

2- CPU Host Clock Control: Enable/Disable.
Reason: So the CPU Host Frequency (FSB) can be adjusted.

3- CPU Host Frequency (CPU FSB) preferably in small increments
Reason: Advancing the FSB to reach higher clock speeds (overclocking)

4- PCI Express Frequency
Reason: It would be a nice feature to experiment with overclocking the PCIe. Better left at default when overclocking CPU, yet It would be nice to have.

5- DRAM Frequency (Memory Frequency) be nice to have Auto, 533, 667, 800, 889, 1067.
Reason: More headroom when overclocking the FSB

6- If not the above then a System Memory Multiplier

7- DRAM Timing Selectable (DSP) Auto/Manual.
Reason: Ability to make the timing looser or tighter depending on the needs.

8- Spread Spectrum Enable/Disable

9-Intel SpeedStep Enable/Disable
Being connected to AC most of the time, not sure how much help it is for me. Yet good to have in case I want to get 35 minutes out of my battery.

10- C1E Enhanced halt State Enable/Disable
Reason: For experimenting with overclocking. I believe it will help in that area.

11- Execute Disable Bit Enable/Disable
It is already enabled. Good thing.

12- Virtualization Technology Enable/Disable
It is disabled on the chip be good to enable for usage with Virtual Machine.


13- PCI Freq. Independent setting in small increments.
Reason: Be good to be able to keep PCI bus at default speed when overclocking the FSB

14- Voltage Settings.
Be nice to have for CPU and/or RAM voltage, but In my opinion it is more current that helps make the CPU go faster and not voltage so increasing voltage tends to increase heat and not necessarily speed. I have been overclocking for 10 years and I am yet to increase the voltage. Still will come in handy for experimental purposes.

15- A Performance Option
Reason: For those who do not want to overclock or not comfortable with it, a Performance option will be nice to improve performance. Kinda like automatically moderately overclocking the computer.

I guess you noticed I did not hamper too much on voltage. In my opinion, unless you have liquid or extremely good air cooling, bumping up the voltage to reach higher speeds will result in stability and heat issues. For the cooling we have in this laptop I don’t think bumping up the voltage is a good idea. At stock cooling with these machine you will still get good overclocking result without adjusting the voltage. Still a lot of things come in play when overclocking that even with liquid cooling the gains are not much greater than say default voltage and stock cooling .

 

Agree on the Voltage. When I asked I was thinking about Q6600 whete I believe it would be nice to overclock it at least t'll 2.66 with no heat issues and no voltage change.

Thank you for the petition idea

Trance

 

You are welcome Trance. This petition would have gone nowhere without the support of my fellow 9260 (D900C) owners. I hope some good will come of it.

WackMan