BGA Venting Thread ;)

@Q937 @Papusan @Mr. Fox Thank you guys - I can definitely see why you would want to avoid a shared heatsink if possible.

I think HIDevolution is waiting to see how things pan out with the MSI 16L13 and the newer yet-to-be-released configurations. @Donald@HIDevolution may have more to say about this.

 

Well as you see it implemented in the P870DM3 it's pretty hard to match the combined GPU heatsink in that.

 

Do you mean the P870DM3 has a combined CPU/GPU heatsink and performs well? How do benchmarks compare between the P750DM3 and the 16L13 when both have delided CLLU pasted 6700Ks and ICD pasted 1070s?

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They're separate, but connected with a thermal pad.

 

Yeah, a big difference between this design and a fully shared unified heatsink designed in one piece or shared pipes. Unified heatsink is the preferred design in most part of JokeBook's with soldered trash.

 

i dont mind unified heatsink as long as CPU heat goes towards GPU, not the other way around, which hasnt really happen yet in high end notebook generally because gpu creates more heat

 

So I take it with a unified heatsink the GPU can warm up the CPU unless the heat pipes and fans are adequate for both? Any data on the P750DM3 indicating that this is an issue?

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The biggest problem with unified heatsinks is that it's much more difficult to achieve a perfect fit, since you not only have to account for heatsink manufacturing tolerances, but also inter-component spacing and arrangement. For example, on my P870DM3, one GPU was lower and angled differently than the other, so I had to correct for it with a washer and a shim to achieve similar temps. Prior to that, I had a 10C delta under moderate load.

 

I'd be interested to see some pictures if you took some.
Clevo heatsinks leave alot to be desired, even when they are stand-alone. This is the 870 DM3's biggest pitfall in my opinion.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/p870dm3-liquid-metal-repaste-results.795876/
I don't have a photo of the paste spread after the realignment and shim, but basically both halves looked like the one on the bottom.

 

After reading a good chunk of this tread I'm starting to wonder if RyZEN could be put into a laptop. The TDP of the 8 core at 95w is even better than intels 140w. One would assume the 6 and 4 cores would be lower TDP. IF ryzen turns out to be a good CPU and they gain some market share in the consumer cpu space and notebook manufactures MIGHT start making high end AMD based laptops. Then we might see PGA return to laptops!! One can only dream as that's all we have left is dreams of socketed hardware in laptops.......

 

Could, certainly, but the jury is still out on "should" we. 4960X and greater Xeon procs worked perfectly fine in the P570WM, so a 95W AMD CPU should be a cake walk in a laptop. 6700K is 95W, so it would not be unique or earth shattering. It seems the BGA brain cancer has caused too many (perhaps those that never had one) to forget how great mobile Extreme CPUs were and how high their TDP was compared to the anemic soldered filth Intel is peddling now.

The question remains at this point if we would actually want RyZEN. I'm not convinced I would want it. Far too many unknowns at this point. All we have is a little bit of hype balanced with appropriate amounts of skepticism. And, unless AMD have a Pascal-killer GPU, I still won't want their CPU. Putting AMD and NVIDIA in the same chassis would be too sacrilegious. I know it can be done, but it seems like a most unholy matrimony.

 

LOL love the stead fast resolution. Yes I realize we don't know what the performance will be, hence the capitalized "IF". I'm not really concerned if its unholy or what not but more in the price to performance and being a socketed part that could be upgraded to lets say zen+ down the road...Which is more than were getting form mobile intel stuff. If Vega isn't as powerful as lets say a titan XP I might still buy it if its priced appropriately for its performance. I feel like most logical minded people would have to agree or else everyone would just buy the latest and greatest titan when it came out price be damned. Don't get me wrong I respect/admire your chase for the bleeding edge of the technological race but that is a very expensive/time-consuming/frustrating place to live. At any rate AMD needs a win to get Intel & NVidia to come to there senses with pricing/innovation. I realize they can't/don't always deliver but they have/can do it so don't count them out yet!

 

Oh, trust me... I want them to win. We need them to win to help break the monopoly. I'm just skeptical is all, and won't spend my own money on an AMD product until I see enough evidence to convince me that I will not be disappointed with yet another example of AMD's trend of being content with second fiddle. I would love to see AMD jack-slap Intel and NVIDIA with products that stomp the life out of their latest and greatest overpriced silicon solutions. If they take the historical approach of being the "value leader" with mediocre crap, that's just not going to cut it. And, it won't help break the monopoly that ultimately screws us all.

 

zens 95w tdp is at specified frequency 3.2-3.4ghz on 8c 16t without any heavy extension workload, which is similar to how intel rate their cpu. gotta note that at higher clock generally passing 3.8-4ghz range the amount of voltage/current needed grows exponentially so TDP could shoot up to match intel, like @Mr. Fox said too many unknown at this point in almost every aspect, performance/power consumption etc.

 

skylake-x 8 core socketed hardware in laptop, submit idea to eurcom brother.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/upcoming-clevo-laptops-with-skylake-x-hedt.798348/

 

I will one we actually see it released. Skylake-x in a laptop would be pretty sweet too. I wonder if clevo will keep changing there proprietary mxm design like they did with the 980 to 1080 or if it will become a standard. Maybe we will know by the time these skylake-x notebooks come out. I'm glad eurocom/clevo still gives some socketed option and when I feel the need or my current laptop craps out I know where my money will go!

 

well eurocom stated they are planning it and asked for ideas to send to their email lol, pretty sweet, gives hope than just dream.

 

Is it bad that I wish that MSI / Clevo could take the LGA systems even further. Have something like a standardized laptop motherboard format based on mini-itx or similar. Give it enough PCB space for future components. Overbuild the power delivery system to account for 250W+ MXM GPU. Use the same location for all connections (high speed ports / video output could all be directly on the motherboard), then use ribbon cables to go to usb or audio ports on sides. This way we could essentially have the same chassis support an AMD or Intel board, any chipset, and swap out at will. Such a machine would be much thicker, and they would probably have to charge a heavy premium for the mainboard because of low demand, but the possibilities for upgrades would be great.

In the meantime, the Tornado F5 / 16L13 is pretty close. It will be very awesome if MSI could make the new Z270 Kaby Lake system boards a drop in replacement for the existing chassis. Or, even the mainboard that they make for Cannonlake as well!

 

i think most of us in this thread is with you, though it'll be hard cause laptop design also about the looks on the outside. if theres a standard sized laptop mobo that would be sick, imagine tthose x16 pcie 3.0 SSDs HHHL would fit into it rofl.

 

I would like to see a titan class card for mobile designed for single card operation in dual card systems. Have that running with a vapor chamber in the P870DM series and you have the perfect gaming machine on any title.

 

@Mr. Fox @ajc9988 @Phoenix
Yet another soul we have saved from JokeBooks aka soldered trash Info out to the people... Rules!!

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...cussions-lounge.797128/page-180#post-10418993

 

That is a wonderful sight!!!

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I agree! A standard laptop barbones form-factor would be awesome. I think maybe one of the hardest pieces of this puzzle is cooling. The motherboard for my P650RS has the weirdest shape (kind of like a jig-saw puzzle piece!) mainly so that the fans, heatsinks and heatpipes that are adequate to cool the CPU and GPU can be fit in there somehow. The optimal mobo shape for a different set of components that generate more heat, require more cooling hardware and a slightly bigger chassis could be quite different.

I would love to see a breakthrough either in cooling technology or in low power high performance computing or both, but until then we are stuck with somewhat clunky designs for high performance laptops (or accept thin BGA meh-performance posers).

 

Maybe you don't remember, but Alienware hit the optimal MB for the first AW models with soldered trash. Fits in both AW15 and 17. Both models got same Throttling problem Only a firmware naming was the difference. Some AW17 got AW15 name in bios and AW15 the other way Dell's tech couldn't see the difference between the BGA models, HAHA

 

Wait, how is that optimal? I think this flew over my head... You mean they had a universal MOBO design, but the catch was that it was BGA? Yeah, that's yucky...

I think a universal socketed laptop mobo form factor would be awesome. But I would really like to see lower power components with at least the same compute potential. Less heat more throughput.

 

Yeah, you should see that flimsy small Universal BGA board in the bigger 17 inches AWbook. Not a very nice looking. And on the AW15 models you couldn't use two of the 4 M.2 ssd slots due the smaller chassis Universal design isn't always the best as you can see

 

Well, a universal doesn't *have* to be a bad design, though it certainly can be =P

It's impressive that the desktop world has been able to get by with standard MOBO form factors (mini/micro-ATX etc) for so long.

It would be cool if there was at least a proposal for a standard laptop MOBO form factor that was socketed.

Maybe this is just asking for too much. Without the flexibility to change the MOBO cutout the laptop designer is left with precious little they can do to avoid a really clunky design or poor thermal properties...

 

talk about being cheap.. this is why their laptop is one of the worst in gaming space right now, cant even compare to half the power clevo/msi/asus provides.

universal mobo would be nice, for laptops thats larger than 18 inch

 

in order to have standard mobo you would need a standard chassis. Maybe you guys want to start an open hw project where we propose general guidelines, like chassis characteristics and general layout, general mobo layout, and so on. We could even start our own NGO and laptops that subscribe to our standards get promoted and get a special badge Like Fair Trade.

 

Yep.
And no more cookie cutter crap. We just need to get back to standardized modular GPU's and socketed chips - let the rest of the designs fall on their merits, then let the cream float to the top and the turds can sink.
We can simply leave the commie cookie cutter crap for the sensitive generation to eat up.

 

Standardisation breaks down when you start getting portable due to the different requirements of people.

 

True that,

Or when Nvidia and Intel gets greedy and wants to change the rules.

Or when outfits like AW realize people will pay the more money for a BGA 15" hardware in a 17" chassis.

How the hell BGA peddling even made it this far and spread to chassis' of this size is beyond me. These practices would be shut down overnight in desktop land.

Ultra thin form factor laptops excluded, all I hear is sympathizing and enabling from the fanboys.
80% of these gaming machines are big enough to be upgradable - whats not to want about that. People need to put down their Battlefield for a few minutes and start opening their traps and start demanding machines that can be upgraded.

"Good enough" is a cop-out mantra to embrace because doesn't hold vendors to the standard they should be at right now.

/rant

 

Yeah, there are all too many who want CrApple similar laptops. Design before performance. Wish Apple was a clean Windows machine. Perhaps we then had more options for performance. Those who wanted a BGA designbook could have chosen a pure AppleBook and the need for more similar crapbooks had been met with only one, while we others could indulging in different power notebooks.
Universial MB on the same level as the best there is for desktops, will be just a dream for power enthusiasts. It will never ever happen.

 

The only people that suffer are those with higher expectations. We are constantly held back by the lowest common denominators. It's very sad, and it goes beyond anemic hardware filth.

Report: PC Gaming Commanded Nearly Six Times More Revenue Than Consoles In 2016

That being the case, it demands an explanation why PC gaming enthusiasts have to put up with so many poorly optimized garbage console ports that run like crap. Seems like there is a very unfavorable trend in technology where the tail is always wagging the dog, and it needs to stop. We should not be shackled by having to accommodate the lowest common denominators on anything.

@D2 Ultima what say you, bro? Interesting article.

 

Ok, we get a laptop to your specifications but I want the chip clocked down and in a lighter/smaller package due to my needs? Are my needs wrong just because they are different to yours?
The physical size requirements are so different to the much narrower margin for desktops where the current size standards work.

 

Spoiler: ebook below

I feel that the data in the article needs some source verification. I don't know where it's coming from, since most PC games sell via Valve's stores on Steam, but Valve does not release sales numbers. Through some a friend of mine with connections in the video game industry I can find out how many sales SOME games have, but it's a very small section of games unless the developers release numbers.

I'll also say that the majority of sales are not from AAA titles, but rather from a lot of indie titles and smaller games. You know, what's generally accepted as "the good stuff" by those with varying tastes. In terms of the AAA, blockbuster-esque market, consoles most certainly obliterate PCs in sales. It's why those games are made for console primarily instead of PC, because that's where their bulk of sales come from. Many of these kinds of games are only made for PC because the relatively low porting cost (I.E. get game into running state and that's all) is overshadowed by even relatively low sales for the platform.

Octiceps and I have conversations on this kind of stuff all the time. We determined that hardware is being made to play games, rather than games being made to run on hardware. If games don't run well enough, we toss stronger cards at it, instead of complaining and refunding and getting people to do the same (in a non-rabid way). It's why when titles like H1Z1 King of the Kill and Ark: Survival Evolved and Dead by Daylight, which are all ridiculously unoptimized, ridiculously broken titles sell like hotcakes because everyone just tosses stronger PCs at things or deals with bad visuals/bad framerates and just plays without considering why it's so bad or buggy (often because "everyone else is playing it"), devs might get an idea of "why bother?". For example, I keep finding people telling me Black Ops 3 ran perfectly, even though I pointed out (with video proof) that above 78fps the CPU requirements go through the roof, and the GPU requirements also aren't so low for its visual prowess either (especially since it needed 6GB vRAM or higher JUST TO TURN ON EXTRA TEXTURES/SHADOWS), far less the fact that the full game plus all its DLC is near 100GB of space, saying how my PC sucked. These were people with 4790Ks and 980s/980Tis who played at 60fps and said "oh it's fine.jpg". I even know for sure that only 6-7 people were working on the PC section of that game at any given time. But nobody complains.

At the end of the day, it's why I don't often hunt for AAA titles too much. I look at launches like Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and I just groan at the performance and bugs. Octiceps loves the game to death because he loves Deus Ex games, but even he was saying he figured he might as well take a break from it until the bugs get fixed. I didn't even look for Fallout 4 either; I'm waiting until the GOTY edition comes out with all the DLC and all the bugfixes rolled in. Dark Souls 3 took so many months before SLI scaling became positive instead of negative (and then my video card died to my ULTIMATE annoyance) as well. I didn't even bother to download Infinite Warfare or Modern Warfare Remastered when they launched; the steam reviews were enough to know.

All in all, my game dev friend and I basically decided that what happens is, games keep increasing in cost to design, but they sell for the same amount (and then companies are profit-obsessed). Consumers don't want long-lasting games in general, the majority of them buy a game or two every month or two and play it for a few hours then get bored and move onto the next one. We consume games at a faster rate than they can be churned out, and developers (especially AAA ones) tend to focus on making a game look like it wants to be sold rather than making a game long lasting or over and above amazing. What the industry needs is a good, solid, crash. Like the one that happened around the E.T. game for the Atari. Maybe when everything comes to a screeching halt, people can work on games for games again.

 

Building on this, compare the p150hm/em/sm/-a to the p170hm/em/sm/-a, the p750zm and p770zm boards, etc. I think saying it required bga is ******** to propagate the ******** that is bga!!!!

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That's called chasing the all mighty dollar! Lower the quality, cut on costs, increase margin, buy us **** you!

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Someone would have to make it happen. Open standards can be a powerful tool for shaming manufacturers into doing something that is at least as good. It sets a standard. But it does require a true evangelist to push the open standard agenda and I agree that that doesn't currently exist.

 

You have to create open standards for the enthusiast, high end, mid, thin and light, and ULP for all common display sizes. @Meaker@Sager is right, if we do this, at least some categories would need bga and i3. Thin and light couldn't use an mxm design and would likely need bga, made for the razor and Mac people. Similar is true for the ultra low power, which chrome books come to mind. High end is like the p7 series. Enthusiast is panther and Phoenix type notebooks... This is spit balling before my first coffee, but wanted to get some ideas out...

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Even then standards can be restrictive, the old way of laying things out for ATX is not really optimal but everyone follows it because it's the standard.

 

Well, I would be happy with just one "reference laptop" design specifically for enthusiasts that was somewhat flexible. The idea would not be to end up with a sleek laptop, but instead to have something that technically fits into a laptop enclosure without sacrificing much in the way of performance. So it would set a pretty high bar performance wise and a low bar size, weight and style wise.

This made me wonder if there is any standard laptop like small form factor case out there (with keyboard and display) or any boards that have MXM sockets on them.

 

It looks like this topic comes up a lot on Tom's hardware. There have been a few open laptop projects based on the micro-ITX board, but this is almost 10 years old:

http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/01/19/the-itx-laptop

I like the general idea. In fact, I wouldn't mind an "empty laptop" - that is just the screen and keyboard with a bunch of standard ports for the display/keyboard/mouse (thunderbolt, hdmi, usb 3.0 etc...). This would be good for couch-top computing. You would build whatever PC you want and use the empty laptop as your display/keyboard... Not so great for travel or truly mobile applications...

 

ROFL LOLLLLL look at that fan opening right beside the keyboard.

 

Some people like hot air blown toward their face! Don't judge!!!

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Hey I bet you could set some benchmark records with something like that. Isn't that worth some hot air blasting in your face? =P

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I personally enjoy an uncomfortably warm left side of my face. Anybody have any eyedrops I can borrow?

Interesting concept though.

 

kinda too thick and ugly to my liking lol, though i would still buy it if it has all the stuff i love internally. HEDT cpu, multiple 2.5" storage space plus pcie ssds, holds enough ram and dual GPUs etc.

 

The SFF forum looks like the place to ask about this.

Here's an example of someone building a PC inside a Pelican case. There's no GPU and it's not a 6700K CPU, but I like the general idea:

https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/deployment-box.567/

It seems like something *should* be possible with these new micro-itx and micro-stx mother boards...