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Hi,
I'm a proud owner of a Clevo d901c. It was the best buy in August last year for a high end laptop (see specs on my sig). Technically is a performance monster.
The market is ever changing and so are prices. Specifically the gaming laptop market is changing dramatically due to ... DELL. This post is regarding Clevo current Clevo prices (Sager, Eurocom, etc etc) today in comparison to the US and European market today.
So let's make a config and go shopping, shall we?
CPU: T9300 or E6750 (The least laptop CPU againts the "least" d901c CPU)
Videos Cards: 8800GTX SLi
Mem: 2GB Memory
HDD: 2x160GB in RAID 0
OS: Windows Vista Premium
LAN: Gigabit
Wireless-N
Standard Price (d901): $3,559 (~3270 Euros if bought in Europe)
DELL Price (DELL XPS 1730): $3,999 (2599 Euros if bought in Europe)
So we have a difference of ~$440 between the two in favor of Clevo if bought in the US. We also have a difference of ~650 Euros in favor of DELL if bought in Europe.
Considering the following:
* DELL Worldwide support Vs Clevo support.
* Clevo MXM-IV FAILED in terms of upgradability. Meaning that video card and CPU peaces are replaceable to new video cards but it requires disassembling all the machine to replace the motheboard too. This not to mention the fact that if you want for instance to replace your current 2x8700GT for the same config but with a 8800M GT one has to pay more then $1000.
* CPU upgradability also failed in practice! For instance, upgrading first generation's d901c to Quads faced the same challenges of the video card.
* Drivers are lacking for the d901c that takes the most out of the system (my system shutters enough to be annoying in COD4 and tried everything).
* Today the SLi does not work in the d901 for the cards at hand at least with COD4
* Montevina is coming and we don't know what Clevo will do in terms of upgradeability of the d901c.
* Delivery times for Clevo laptops can be oustanding in comparison with other manufacturers.
Considering the above I think DELL solution is far more compelling for the Europeans. For the US is not so clear, but the difference in price is not really that bad for DELL. All the bells and wissles that DELL adds to the laptop (keyboard backlighting and so on) might well be worth it for some.
While DELL prices between the US and the European Market are hand in hand, Clevo ... well European's usually pay more $1500 for the same top system then the US .
The value proposition of a top Clevo laptop is being challenged seriousely! And i bet this year it will be even more.
Trance
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Well , if there wasn`t any competition, why would anyone drop prices, neh?
It`s a good thing for all of us. But somehow, I don`t see Clevo expanding too much in Europe and from the looks of it, we`ll never see prices as low as in the US, sadly. -
It's competition that brings prices down, that may, in part, explain why prices in Europe are frequently higher than in the US - less robust competition.
Obvioiusly, D'h'ell's been feeling the pressure from Clevo, and is taking advantage of its greater sales to be able to operate profitably with a much thinner margin of profitability by aggressively lowering prices on D'h'ell products that compete with Clevos. In other words, those of you who are currently enjoying the "pleasures" of your D'h'ell gaming laptops have Clevo to thank as much as you have D'h'ell.
Now, let's just hope that, unlike certain other IT companies that shall not be named, but which might be referred to as Another Maddening Disappointment (perhaps they've become the "Scottish Play" of the IT world? ), Clevo takes the hint, realizes that D'h'ell's aggressive pricing is a sign of respect insofar as it shows that D'h'ell is taking Clevo's competition seriously, and that Clevo steps up to the plate and keeps the pressure on D'h'ell. In point of fact, that's something that both Clevo-nuts and D'h'ell-fans should be able to agree on, because both benefit thereby.
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Hi Dexgo,
Yes I did but I have not spent a penny doing it. Long story.
Just to add that considering that a Dell M1730 XPS just cost $500 more then any comparable Clevo proposition (D901c or M570RU-U) and if you might still think "so what?", consider this:
* How much it would cost you to order a paint job equivalent to a DELL XPS on your Clevo? Well easily more then $300. So you are left with $200
* Now put some backlighting on you Clevo more or less equivalent and there goes the $200.
If don't care for any of this, yes you save $500. But in the end of the day a Clevo solution is not at all cheaper then a DELL XPS. Gateway is only giving the first steps too with it's new system, yet not competetive but in the future they will come around.
I don't think it was so much a Clevo pressure but an Asus actually The G1S and G2S was a huge success and the new EeePC is "frightning" a lot of people.
Trance
PS: What is not so good is that DELL currently has no competition in the EU market. -
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Agreed. But, that's one of the reasons why I don't like the national brands - too few customizations that matter to me (and too much crap that I don't want - think Vista - forced on me).
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No. Blame Canada ( I was looking at you avatar, love South Park
)
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I'm not sure if I'm following all of your statements, but I'll try.
As for why costs in the EU might be higher than in the US - first, some of that differential may be the result of exchange rate variations, rather than an indicator of intrinsic valuation differences. Second, the EU countries typically impose more regulations and restraints on businesses, all of which raise the manufacturers' and sellers' costs, which are then passed on to the consumer (to the extent that the sellers' elasticity of supply is greater than the consumers' elasticity of demand). For example, here is a short paper from 2004 regarding the regulations and controls imposed on manufacturers, sellers, and distributors of electronic components.
As the paper wryly notes, the EU is the most active region of the world in terms of imposing environmental regulations on electronics industry participants. One item that merits attention because it anecdotally supports my proposition, is the paper's statement that under the EU regulations, most consumers are entitled to return their electronic goods to the manufacturer at no cost to the consumer. Well, as the old adage goes - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch - someone has to pay to collect, manage, sort, recycle, and dispose of those returned items, and since that person is generally the manufacturer, which is typically not a non-profit charity, those costs will get folded back into the cost of the goods and, to the extent permitted by the supply/demand elasticities, will ultimately be borne by the consumer.
On this note, I just have to point out something that I find hilarious (or, more and more frequently, abnoxious because it gets forced on me) is the patent inability of most folks who want to regulate and tax to grasp some of the most basic concepts of economics. The effect on cost-shifting of differences in the elasticities of supply and demand, as noted above, is one example. Another, related example, is the almost willful blindness to the difference between the nominal incidence of a cost and the economic incidence of that same cost. Basically, just 'cause the law forces someone to write the check to Auntie Gov't does not mean that that same person is the one who will bear the economic consequences of that obligation.
That is demonstrated, in spades, with programs like the take-it-back-for-free disposal rules for electronic equipment. Nominally, the manufacturer of a computer is statutorily obligated to bear the cost of collecting and disposing of used electronics. Economically, however, those costs only stay with the manufacturer to the extent that he cannot shift those costs onto some other economic player with whom the manufacturer interacts.
Now, before we get a whole bunch of "progressive" blow-hards in here ranting that there's something sinister about such cost-shifting, I'll just say that, no, it's not sinister, it's a very fundamental law of any universe that contains non-infinite resources, time, and resource-users with varying preferences. In short, it is utterly beyond, and a priori to, any political or philosophical conceptions. The birds do it, the bees do it, even the trees do it.
Clearly, D'h'ell, being the behemoth it is, gets at least two benefits from the economies of scale - reduced prices for inputs relative to Clevo and the ability to operate profitably on a thinner per-unit margin than Clevo resellers. That's business for ya. However, with size often comes sclerosis, and if you recall the state of D'h'ell from a few years back, you'll recognize that they're much less sclerotic now than they have been - but these things come and go, and in particular given that public companies are driven by the need to maintain short-term share prices, it's more likely that a big, public company will suffer sclerosis and stock-induced myopia than will a small, private company.
Now, in one of your last paragraphs, you state "regulate prices world wide" - who's supposed to be doing the regulating? Why not let individual local markets decide local prices on the basis of local supply and demand? -
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Hi Fade,
"DFTrance, the EU doesn't have import taxes on notebooks".
Where have you read that? I'm prety sure if I buy a notebook from the US I'll pay import tax in customs.
If you show me where is that written (officially) I will probably use that next time
Anyway it is a difficult business if we imagine a company trying to establish itself as a Clevo reseller in Europe. The Clevo competition is fearce. For instance, imagine a company with 3 employees and a small web shop and office. How many Clevo's to sell to cover:
* Operational costs
* Marketing costs
* Facilities, electricity and so on.
* Support Costs
* What about profit?
Considering that reseller's price is not competitive (volume obligations have a transferable cost, see bellow), the company has to manage fully Clevo support and have technical expertiese to resolve problems, supply is scarce (another transferable cost), product changes every three months etc etc it is difficult (another transferable cost).
It this difficult for a shop dedicate it self fully to Clevo and Compal, and not to surrender it self to selling Sony, Asus, Toshiba, HP, etc. The later in comparison, the supply velocity is more predictable, very little barriers to entry, marketing cost are very little for a shop in comparison and support is given by the Builder. So it cost's far less to support and to sell the products of Tier 1 companies and business is more predictable in the end.
This considering that the top 5 companies are starting to want this market and to change mainstream, I see difficult times ahead for Clevo, Arima, Compal to persue still this line of business. This is good for the consumer as prices will go down but leaves a taste that something else could have been done.
If you are selling a product it needs to have a value proposition whatever is the market. My point is that the value proposition of these products (price Vs uniqueness Vs. performance Vs. cutting edge) is getting trimed down severly. As i said before, better upgradeability was an excellent benefit that could differentiate Clevo products against the mainstream, but that has not proved it self. Furthermore, if you buy a $5000 (in EU) or $3500 (in US) product, custom made to performance in gaming and you experience shuttering for instance in COD4 you start doupting what we mean by Custom Made and Fine Tunned Gaming System. Actually you start to believe that is just a bunch of meaningless marketing words. So basically these systems although custom made and "fine tunned", experience all the problems of any other system in the market today, so it is not really a differentiator. Another value proposition down. Where are the fine tunned driver's? it is ridiculous we have to go to a mainstream site (laptopvide2go) to find those "fine tunned" drivers.
So it is all coming down to price unfortunately. Considering the prices in Europe and DELL agressive pricing, me asking for a Price Cut makes all the sense doesn't it? I'm not complaining or criticizing but stating a need.
Trance
PS: I could give you another example of mistake. The late 15" option. Indeed a lot of people have not opted for a Clevo due to lack of offer in this field. Way too many people simply considered a 17" laptop not really a laptop if you know what I mean, so not really an option for them, lost oportunity since they wanted a gaming laptop in a very competitive market. -
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And that would not work. Gifts are subject to taxes, sorry...
Anyway, DFTrance, do this for a math homework: US prices + VAT. Try the fastest Novatech laptop then compare it to the best price in the US, add the shipping costs (or not) and then VAT to the total cost of the laptop (shipping included). See what you get.
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Clevo Price Drop Wanted!
Discussion in 'Sager and Clevo' started by DFTrance, Mar 7, 2008.
