Deciding between an EVOC P775TM-R and P870TM-R

Hello friends,

This is my introductory post to NotebookReview and the Clevo forum. A bit about me...

What I do when I'm not gaming: I'm a micro/nanofabrication engineer specializing in MEMS fab & process control.
Cheekiest mod: I over clocked my Celeron 300A CPU from 300 to 450 MHz (stable) via a "celery sandwich" design (yes I know how much this dates me).
Most expensive mod: I bought 16MB ram for $400 (~$700 in today's $) for an IDE caching hard drive controller (again somewhat dating me) to open up the worst bottleneck on my 486 DX2-66.

Over the years I've become less of a performance optimizer hobbyist and more interested in convenience and portability - while still maintaining performance.

I've used the ASUS G751JY in my sig for 5 years and was happy enough with it until a trigger-pulling event occurred - the upcoming release of "Half-Life: Alyx"! I want a high end VR ready rig that will last another 5 years (w/ potential CPU/GPU/memory upgrades along the way).

My initial intention was to buy a refurbished Alienware Area 51m from Dell with i9-9900K/RTX2080 and add my own memory/storage, but the more research I did the more I came to realize the 51m is a new chassis design and thermal management system, and it shows w/ the GPU throttling debacle.

The following video was the final nail in the coffin, which was a bitter pill to swallow, since I had come to appreciate the design of the 51m and was looking forward to being an owner.



Now that I'm weighing functionality over form I'm tending toward a Clevo solution for my gaming/computing needs. This means either an EVOC P775TM-R or a P870TM-R (I'm still trying to understand the whole Clevo / Sager / EVOC ecosystem - but I think the Clevo design philosophy is more upgrade/configuration flexibility than other desk top replacement platforms - esp if I'm using a value-added reseller like HIDevolution).

So if you've read this far - thank you. Now for some questions:

1) The only reason I can see for choosing the P870 over P775 is possibly better thermals (does that really account for being ~3 lbs heavier???). Both have access to same level of components (except SLI?), and holding those equal, the P870 seems to come in about $700 more expensive.

Why choose the P870 over the P775? If I overclock the i9-9900KS I intend to use, will it statistically last longer in a P870 because the CPU will be cooler? Will fan noise be less, holding over-clock parameters equal?

2) Does P870 being in end of life status have any practical ramifications if I use a VAR?

3) What do you think might be a better choice than a VAR build of a P775/P870? I also considered the MSI GT76 Titan, but at least through HIDEvolution, there seemed to be less configuration flexibility at higher price.

Thanks again.

 

P775TM1 is the latest version with support for i9 and RTX. The P870 was discontinued by Clevo so your best bet is to go with the P775TM1-G

 

Yes, thermals will be better due to a beefier cooling solution and a vapor chamber capable of 4-500W of cooling. It will have a higher thermal ceiling in terms of performance headroom compared to the P7. The P870TMx from HID will also come with the latest Prema bios supporting 'KS' and RTX. Motherboard is limited to x8 instead of x16 PCI-e, however this does not affect performance since current gen of MXM doesn't even saturate x8 bandwidth.

Being EOL doesn't really affect it much, it still the same lga1151/z370 chipset that the P7 uses. You might want to wait until Q2 of 2020 for the Clevo X170, since it will support the new LGA1200 socket.

 

If you use cad simulations and can target workloads at GPUs I believe you can get the p870 with 2x RTX 2080 but this will do nothing in regular apps.

 

Thanks for the spec info/advice. Waiting for the X170 is very tempting. I look at the design and it's pretty slick (The P8 design is nice... the P7 - meh). Not to mention putting the latest CPU/GPU in it. My general rule for upgrades, however, is every two generations, one generation from the latest. So for example I have a GTX 980 now, go to RTX 2080 as the RTX 3080 is coming out. I think it's a good price/performance compromise. On the other hand, if I'm going to spend too much money already why not *way* too much money.

 

Thanks for the feedback! Sheesh, so many models... P775TM, TM-G, DM3-G, TM1, TM-R; P870TM-R, TM-G, TM1, TM1-G, DM, ETC... Plus the Sager and Eurocom varations. I know most of these are old/outdated, but out of curiosity has anyone ever drawn up a spread sheet / family tree for all the permutations and combinations of makes/models?

 

I would use L-Edit, COMSOL Multiphysics and Adobe Creative Cloud for non-gaming purposes, and I bet most games couldn't take advantage... I'm afraid running two 2080's would just be for bragging rights (not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

Just wanted to ask, why is this your general rule?

Laptops don't really follow the same price/performance thing that desktop parts do brand new; perhaps they do in the second hand market?

Are you planning on buying the laptop only once the 3000 series comes out? Because that, at the moment, is shaping up to be a fairly long wait. The X170 is almost certainly going to debut with either an RTX2080 or 2080 Super.

And if you mean it's better value to buy a generation of GPU on the 'eve' of the next generation, well, a specced out P775 with a 2080 hasn't exactly come down in price since the 2080's release.

 

No, you're right. The model works best on discrete devices, like smart phones. Especially since the price drops quite a lot when the latest year's model comes out. I didn't really appreciate that the pricing evolution (ie P775) of laptops was so slow.

 

The P750 and P775 are pretty similar in terms of controlling heat output, and how far you can overclock these machines. The P870 is really a stationary beast of a laptop.

You can squeeze some good performance out of them though.

My 15.6” P750 is heavy, thick, and not too portable. I could only imagine trying to carry around a Clevo P870.

I would say, save hundreds and buy the P775TM1-G.

Buying a retail P870 just isn’t worth it anymore. They’re way to expensive, especially from EVOC. And especially since SLI is now dead. You practically gain nothing. The P870 is really good a keeping the CPU and GPU much cooler then the P750, or P775. But, RTX graphics cards run way colder than GTX series. So it really makes minimal difference now.

Save some cash and go for a P775 with a 9900K, and a RTX2080 or wait until the new 2020 Clevo’s come out.

I really do like the P870, and I wouldn’t mind having one. But, If I dropped my components in to a p870TM1 barebone the performance boost would not be worth the cost in the end. Slightly lower CPU temps maybe, and a cooler running GPU if I had the optional Vapor chamber.

It was cheaper to buy a entirely new RTX graphics card.

P775TM1-G all the way.

 

Sober analysis. Thank you for that. The extra $700 and three pounds is a hard one to swallow for lower operating temperature on a 9900KS / RTX2080 combo... Something to think about.

BTW, what is the difference between a P775TM1-G and P775TM-R???

Thanks.

 

Probably just a different factory firmware.

I don’t think there are any physical differences.

Also, getting a EVOC laptop with Prema bios is really the best way to go. But, if you can save substantial money buying else where and getting the default bios you will live just fine. I run 5.1Ghz on my P750TM1 without Prema.

I am certain Prema would be fantastic and all. But, selling my entire laptop to buy a EVOC is the only way to get Prema bios in
my case. And this is just a ridiculous thing to even consider lol.

 

Correct that the chassis and such is the same on the 775.

 

If you are from Europe, there are also resellers with prema bios. Just something to keep in mind

 

If you want to keep this one for 5 years and with the X170 around the corner I'd say you owe it to yourself to wait for pricing and specs on the X170 - it might as well hit a sweet spot and if not you can still go with a P870 or P775.

The P870 may be too much if you travel a lot especially by plane but it will probably give you the best thermals of the three and therefore also lower noise levels for the same performance. As for upgradability I would expect an easier upgrade path for the X170 which may be something fun to do in a year or two. Still I wouldn't be surprised if a bios modification helped to keep the older designs current with upcoming graphics as long as the form factor is right.

 

The best long term purchases are made at the start of a full generation (not refresh) gpu launch.

 

Agreed.

What are your opinions on the 20 series RTX GPUs in regard to this? While we may have been spoiled by the 9-series to the 10-series performance jump, buying into an RTX2080 DTR at the beginning would also seem to have been a good call as the 30-series is a long way off, and even though the Supers are coming, the non-super 2080 is still going to get you close to 'maximum' level mobile GPU performance for a considerably long time.

Personally, being in the market for a DTR with no set time schedule, I somewhat regret not buying with the 2080 and wanting a nicer looking chassis than the P7 series. The X170 looks real nice, but I don't think I can bring myself to buy one with a 2080 Super considering speculation puts the 30-series mobile in 2021. May just hold out for the first go around of that new generation.

Edit: Perhaps a kind of stealth benefit of that is by then any kind of custom bios will be more mature for the X170, and user opinions of its strengths and weaknesses more plentiful on the chassis.

 

If OP buy it today and intend to have it 4-5 years there ain’t other options than going for P870 with PremaMod firmware. I wouldn’t look other places. This model is the only real DTR nowadays. Or just wait it out and see what the new model will offer. Of course coming model will need Prema firmware.

 

LGA 1151 has reached the end of the road with the 9900KS. It had a good run!
It's LGA 1200 ( X170 in Q2) from here on...

That being said the P870TMx, being the last of its kind, will always have a special place in our enthusiast hearts...even though they hate us at the airports.

 

HeHe. I think we'll never see similar again.... 6700K→7700K→8700K→9900K as in my good old BGA-Killer laptop from 2015. Yeah, the last of its kind. Will probably ride next to my old W860 here home. The smaller 10 years old lady will still not die. So I think they will be best buddies the coming years

 

OP here... I would tend to agree. It's not a sexy choice, per se (though the M1 Abrams has a certain appeal), but it's ultra-field tested and there are no surprises. The downside is not much in the way of future compute upgrades will be possible, CPU wise... GPU wise ???

The downside with the X170 is it's somewhat risky and there will be growing pains (which I guess is part of the fun for a sub-set of enthusiasts). With a new chassis, who knows what problems could crop up until it's been in the field for a while. Look what happened with the 51m... They've had to throttle it on at least one (more?) occasions.

 

Can’t compare those wonderful Clevo DTR models with those from Dell. Every AW model from 2013 and forwards is crippled one way or another. Every new year and new flaws.

Can’t remember that the later Clevo DTR model’s (DM/TM) series had growing pains outside variable HS quality.

 

Mostly I just got bemused looks as I took my p570wm through taking up the entire tray itself

 

7nm is a nice jump in power and density and then any arch improvements are a cherry.

 

Thanks for the advice. Waiting for the X170 later instead of buying the P870 now feels like one of those decisions you know is the right one to make but you don't have enough will power for...

 

In that case go for the P870 but I would try to check availability of an upgrade path to the RTX3080 - if that isn't possible I would expect better performance from the X170 in the long run.

And please remember that the P870 is about 2 lbs heavier than your G751, probably closer to 3 lbs with the power brick. It is a real beast and if you intend to carry it around regularly you should be fine with that..

 

I recently got the P870TM-R (with 9900KS / 2080) after my P775 died, and I am quite happy with it. It runs faster and cooler, thus also quieter.
I am using this daily as desktop replacement, running plenty of simulations etc., only occasionally for gaming.
2 power bricks was a no-go for me, so I got the 780W eurocom, which increased the price even further.
Price and weight are certainly a con, but so far airport security let me pass after a manual screening of the devices. Actually they seem more curious about the 780W PSU than the laptop itself

I think it is the best system for power users as of today, but it has also reached the end of its upgrade paths. So it is something to buy now as it is, use it for a long time unchanged, and then replace it.
If I wouldn't have needed it asap, I would probably have waited for the X170, at least to compare the two.

One negative point that annoys me with it is that PCIe is limited to x8 (due to SLI capability, doesn't affect most games though).

Important positive points for me personally are also that this system is very well known, runs smoothly on Linux, and manual fan control is possible.
For me it is not so clear whether that will be given for the X170 from the very beginning.

 

Thanks for the report, which P775 version did you have?

Speaking of running more quiet doesn't that 780W power supply also have a pretty audible fan?
I always liked the idea to only carry one of the 330W adapters while traveling but obviously this may not appeal to everybody.

As for the X170 I would say that at first it would only be a case of waiting until more specifications and details become known and that may already help in making a more informed decision as to whether it is worth the wait or not. At that point it should still be possible to get one of the older models.

 

It is funny that people talk about superior build quality for Dell/Alienware and also other manufacturers yet on the inside where it counts the P870 and P775 are rock solid whereas the competition often delivers subpar product that throttles like crazy and/or breaks down or goes up in smoke.

Not to mention the rubbery surfaces that Dell likes to use that usually look less than great after a very short time of usage that cannot be cleaned properly anymore. Meanwhile the Clevo DTR's are plain and yet very durable and not prone to aging as badly as those rubbery surfaces that Dell still uses.

 

I had the p775dm-3 with a 6700k. I tried a 9900k in the p775 with firmware mod, but the temps were actually not great.
Obviously I cannot say anything about the p775tm (v.s. dm), but the p870tm seems way cooler.
I have / had the cpu undervolted by 100 mV, and the 9900ks clocked to 4.5 GHz for daily use, and hat the 6700k at 4.0, and they were actually running at similar temperatures, only the 9900 in the p870 has twice the cores, and higher clocks.

The p870 actually works with a 330W power supply as long as you don't load CPU and GPU at the same time (I mean all cores on the CPU + GPU).
It might help a bit that the 2080 in the Clevo is crippled to 150W, which is less than the 1080 in the p870 before.
But I think to be on the safe side, the 780W is a good choice.
It has the fan, but with the single-gpu p870, it is newer running close to its capacity, so the fan remains rather silent.
I use the 780W only for traveling, and use my stock of 330W supplies with the 2*330W converter box in the office.

Not sure if one can judge the X170 before someone has it in its hand and gives a reasonable review.

 

Even with a 2080 the 8x lanes wont make a difference you will be able to notice without benchmarks and even then a stringent testing setup.

 

Well, that depends on what you are doing. For gaming, it is not really relevant, but any application that ships data forth and back has its throughput cut by a factor of 2.

 

Usually you are getting pretty niche by the time the gpu is not going to be the limiting factor.

 

I’m dropping a RTX2080 in
my P750TM1, a 9900K, a Intel 665P 2TB, and I will happily ride out for years on this thing!

I think RTX2080 mobile will get better as it ages. And, at just 1080P there is a 42% uplift in performance playing watch dogs 2!

^GTX1080 vs RTX2080.


The Clevo X170 would seriously need to impress, To sway my decision on keeping the P750TM1-G.

 

Unless you need "moar corez!" or obviously next gen Nvidia (and for some reason it can't be made to work in the last gen Z370), I'm not seeing
the upside to the X170.

My HID Prema touched 870TM will do up to a 9900ks and RTX 2XXX. The cooling is outstanding and I ordered a few BartX IHS's for the 8th and 9th @ 4.3mm height series to compensate for
the pairing issue I'm currently using a shim to compensate.

I'll stick with my 8086k atm because, like yours, it is a magical chip that can do 5.0ghz no problem but is loud (fans > 50%), but I prefer to run it at 4.5ghz all cores with a -150uv and less than
50% fans even when stress testing my criteria in my sig. Hopefully the new IHS (that will replace the stock delidded IHS and shim) should dial it in more and maybe get 4.6-4.7 and same quiet levels. Obviously gaming is near dead quiet and the only thing causing any real noise was the 1080 and even that was hovering right around 50% or lower.

I have a 9900k that will do 4.5ghz all cores @ 1.1v and pass all my stressors already (Same chip does 5.2 and passes all my .sig stressors on air with stock IHS no delid) but I'd like to see if there is a k/kf/ks that can go even lower and pair it with the new IHS and achieve the same level of quiet computing.

I'll be curious to see how your taming of the 9900k goes in that 750TM1

 

RTX2080 will be faster out of date than Pascal. For the first time in long time we will see AMD is able to compete... Means Nvidia Next gen will have to deliver... https://wccftech.com/nvidia-next-gen-ampere-gpu-75-percent-faster-existing-gpus/

Jump on 2080 now is just madness. See... Slower than coming 2080 Super cards and totally crushed by 3080.

 

We will see how much faster it is. Everything is rumour at this point.

 

Amen brother!

Getting a 2080 now as an upgrade for a good 1080 is probably NOT a good idea. Chances are very high that it will be possible to either get a 30x0 series GPU with similar performance and less TDP compared to the 2080 or a significantly better performing card with the same TDP. The only problem is that it will be some time until we find the 30x series in laptops.

 

It was never a great idea imo.

 

The price premium vs bang per buck is hard to justify with the 1080=>2080. And since memetracing is still a gimmick there is no rush.

 

The next gen could be quite interesting and seeing how the ray tracing has matured.

 

I’ve seen ray tracing. And while it looks really cool, I would never use it because the massive performance loss is just silly.

 

I haven't seem anything that would make me go buy an RTX card yet. A raytraced Qauke2 is still quake2
For me, graphics have always been secondary to the actual gameplay. Looks aren't everything

 

It's another tool, a good horror game using real lighting could be awesome.

 

porting thief the dark project/metal age to UE4 and take advantage of ray tracing would be nothing short of amazing. the one of few only game where ray tracing would affect gameplay massively to make it more realistic.

 

Any stealth game would benefit and it does open up options.

 

"any" stealth game is the issue here. i dont consider many other game to be stealth as the stealth element is seriously lacking except early thief games. but you are correct it'll change the way game is played.

now if only nvidia would actually give laptop users 3080 instead of 2080 TI or 2080 Super w/e they called it. another yr no GPU upgrade, waiting for 3080 or 4080.

 

The mobile chips do not tend to lag too much behind the desktop launches.

 

im after the big jump in performance and efficiency though. similar GPU performance with lots more battery life is always a plus.

 

Even a 45w gpu is enough to drain any battery under load pretty quick.