Disappointed in current offerings?

How many of you are sort of disappointed with the current offerings from Sager/Clevo? It is truly sad (in my opinion) that they didn't get their "top of the line" product out before Alienware and others started shipping their i9-k processor, 3080 GPU models.

 

My disappointment is much broader. We keep seeing performance gimped and prices increased. In this unique day and age, value is becoming more important than looks or specs. If it wasn't for the hard work and commitment of @Prema , @Mr. Fox , and others to name just a few, these laptops would be worse than garbage. You are in control of how you spend your hard-earned income; your call in the end. But, I struggled with the latest croppings of Clevo/Sager notebooks. Too expensive for what you get,

 

Yes, I'm disappointed. Looking more and more toward Tongfang this generation. If only they'd build a real DTR.

 

The fact that I bought a new P177SM-A barebone for $1000 instead of a new PB/PC 7x indicates that I am completely unhappy with anything that's currently on the market.

 

When I went with my thin book model my primary interest was CPU / dual NVME's since no other chassis had the dual NVME option at the time other than models hitting $2K+ which really didn't make sense when comparing the components under the hood. I ended up with the 9750H CPU / 15.6" screen for under $800 shipped and ported over some components from a different system to upgrade the base configuration. Since then swapping the WIFI a couple of times to AX210 currently which is 6E ready and recently bumped the RAM to 32GB for under $100. So, less than $1000 for a pretty sleek laptop that doesn't look like a gaming rig or stand out as a target to swipe in public.

This is/was my first venture outside the mainstream builds and it's been a decent experience so far other than some minor glitches to deal with.

Now, for gaming and the newest GPU's vs price they aren't the quickest to adapt as seen just from the CPU side moving onto the PCIE4/USB4 chips which in turn would translate to higher end RTX cards working well within the same configuration. Once C/S retool their MFG process for the new processors / features the flood gates will drop again with newer options for the next several years once again.

 

Prices in real terms have not really increased too much.

The market is suffering at the moment in terms of availability globally.

Performance and TDPs have improved but the TGPs have far outstripped what physics allow compared to desktops where power numbers have gone ballistic.

 

Prices aren't really a good metric. We have seen metrics such as performance/watt and so forth. These metrics were created in comparison of AMD CPUs with Intel. In looking at the various resellers, prices are indeed consistent, and haven't changed much despite the lack of part supply. But, the performance you are getting is actually decreasing. Intel has gimped their mobile CPUs with plundervolt and other microcode fixes. In many cases, these CPUs can no longer be tweaked to lower voltage and thus throttling. Prices for these components have not dropped. In terms of performance per dollar or other monetary value, we continue to see a drop in that score.

It's also true that mobile form factors are pushing against the reality curve in terms of being able to deliver performance. But, when OEMs no longer innovate engineering solutions, yet keep the price of their SKUs at previous levels, the consumer is forced to accept less performance for that cost.

I looked hard at the non-DTR Clevo/Sager laptops. Cost before shipping and taxes ranged between $1500- $2000. These models all had 10750H CPUs and RTX2070 Max-Q GPUs. Threads in this forum show that these models run hot. Not necessarily a problem if one is willing to throw a $2k laptop away when it dies. But, throwing away a $1k laptop is much more acceptable even if its performance is less.

 

If a company would take in input from these forums and closely look at what the competition has to offer they would be able to build a world beating DTR platform that they could carry on with for several generations.

I am quite sure it won't be Clevo as from one generation to another they did not even manage to revise their ludicrous power supply design in their DTR nor their cancereous bios and CCC.

 

You can put liptstick on a pig but it's hard to spit shine a turd!

Clevo is a more of a horsepower for less $ than it is appealing to the masses like Dell, lenovo, HP, etc. whereas you pay for the hype and shiny tools they provide that don't really work anyway..

PSU's for one can be bypassed with a USB-C PD solution as long as it's not for gaming which would then need the traditional PSU due to exceeding USB PD 100W limitation.
CCC is a gimmick of sorts but, you can set your preferences and remove it from the system.
BIOS... yeah, that leaves something to be desired as they don't really keep up with things outside of the initial release unless you know where to look for updates on your own.

 

It's not as easy as you think to execute that plan.

 

It would actually be reasonably easy to do certain things differently - I did not say take ALL input from the forums and act on it as obviously that would be very difficult
For example the ability to run a laptop without a dedicated GPU will mean a certain effort on behalf of the manufacturer but it will not be that much. Same for allowing operation with "only" one power supply or adressing the shortcomings of the CCC and the bios.

It is not like the X17 chassis is crap compared to the competition but it is lacking in certain areas where in my opinion it could be made more appealing to a wider audience and at the same time it could offer more for its core audience, too.

For example the two power supply solution has led to just about every review from one of the bigger platforms saying that one may as well get a desktop as nobody will want to move one of these around anyway - not good!
A mux switch would also help a lot with the complaint that battery life is non-existant and a dead quiet machine in office / work use would also be a worthwhile goal etc.

How about a 4 point mounting solution for the CPU and a vapor chamber would be the next logical step to achieving better temperatures and/or more silent operation - would it be that much more to extend that vapor chmaber?

I am not saying that all of these things can be had for free but at some point it also makes sense to ask how much it would cost to go the extra mile.

With a mux switch it would even be possible to sell an X270 without a dedicated GPU so entry level pricing would not have to be that high if one was worried about that.

Even now with the X170KM-G being out it is ridiculous that one gets recommendations for not one original Clevo solution when it comes to the bios, fan control, overclocking or even controlling the keyboard LED's - it is just a matter of going as they say...

 

My main gripe is the weight. I told @Meaker@Sager before that the portability of the MXM + desktop CPU platform is non-existent. I calculate the weight of the machine with the PSUs included and the X170 is 7 kg ! Most users don't want their machines to be more than 4kg. Dell understands that very well, for example, their Precision 7000 series are 3.2 KG + 0.8Kg PSU. I suppose users could accept 4.5 Kg if you offered them desktop CPU + MXM GPU, but at 7kg, you narrow your addressable market way too much.

 

With current hardware and even in the future if one wants to stay at a certain relative performance level I do not see a well balanced solution weighing significantly less than 5kg / 11lbs with a ca. 300W power supply and probably 200 to 250W is more realistic at that weight.

The Dell solution is not able to stay anything close to quiet when you really tax the CPU so if you want something more quiet at least with the current state of things you need better cooling than that and neither Dell nor Lenovo nor HP offer it with their workstations - been there, done that.

I think there is a market for devices that do not sound like leaf blowers when you do things that are more taxing than browsing the internet or playing a youtube video and this is something the X170 and previous generation big gaming laptops do very well. That is when there is proper fan control software available which to most manufacturers seems to be an afterthought.

And yes, if it is only for very low demand tasks the classic DTRs will be just as good and weigh less but if this is all you do why even get a workstation / DTR in the first place and not something that is even slimmer and that does not exceed 3 or 2.5kg?

 

That's perfectly fine. But for example, I don't want a 11900K CPU + 200W 3080 on my laptop. I am fine with a 65W desktop CPU + a 3060.

 

I'd think that for that 5kg should not be an issue. I benched my X170 with the 3060 and the 10900k and it does not really go above 280W so for everyday use 250W would be plenty and 200W probably enough.

 

Exactly my thoughts.

 

The problem is the price premium. Selling someone a larger, heavier and slower machine (Vs. 3070 with mobile CPU) for more money is a difficult sell and very niche.

 

It would still have mxm modules so customers could also choose a 3070 and 3080.
The assumption would be that there is a market for a modular non-disposable well thought out laptop design beyond the single purpose of cramming the biggest possible CPU and GPU into that chassis.

It is the same now with the X170 where I can combine a 10850k and the RTX3060 - why not if I want a lot of cores in a modular chassis but I do not really need that much GPU power?

I have to say that apart from the less than smooth experience of taking off the rather cheaply made bottom cover (was a much better experience on the P775 and P870 chassis) it is really cool to be able to open up a laptop, take out the battery and work on RAM, CPU, GPU and drives and even get to the parts below the keyboard in such a short time, it is really a bit like building my own desktop PC.

 

It how it should be. It is how it used to be back in 2008-2010. It was so much easier to service laptops back then. Even cheap entry-level Acer Aspires had MXM video cards.

 

Precisely, when you start seeing DTRs as portable desktops instead of cumbersome laptops they make much more sense.

 

When with those systems most people never touched the ram, let alone the GPU.

 

Not sure about the RAM but you really got to go the extra mile to swap the CPU so I can see where they are coming from

 

https://frame.work/

Coming soon!

 

Most people don't even know what ram looks like.

 

I do not even find them that cumbersome, men should be able to lift things of a certain weight without being bothered by it. A DTR certainly does not qualify for being bothersome in most situations as it is not meant to be carried around all day but mainly from place A to place B - no big deal if it is bigger than other laptops and weighs a bit more.

It is funny that with new trends for being more rugged and resilient and self reliant etc. etc. these trends have almost entirely bypassed the laptop world where nobody is able to do anything anymore (e.g. servicing, changing parts) on a growing number of devices and on top of that lifting anything above 3kg seems to have become an impossibility for most men.
I wonder what these tiny little elves do when they have to bring home the groceries...

 

puny laptop.

with that being said I hope it does well. well enough for Clevo and some other brands to bring back some innovation and enough value to the board.

and yeah. clevo's current offerings... geez. where's the AMD love? I don't know when I'll get my next rig. my 4790k/980M are still humming away for me. I have been watching a few more DIY desktop build videos and I think LTT got Intel's new NUC with some 10 or 11xxx cpu and a 3080 inside. don't quote me on the price but I think the build he had was just south of $1600. I might be looking into something like that in the future if AMD or some other boutique brand brings the pain.

could definitely outdo a DTR with the right specs and power supply size. I am also keeping an eye on the laser projector market, especially the ultra short throws. yeah, I know I am talking about an entirely transportable rig, less portable than Clevo's DTR but packing a bigger wallop and potentially less bucks out of the wallet.

and for hahas. this might've happened already as I haven't kept up with tech as much lately but when does Samsung or LG or some up and coming chinese brand bring us a foldable OLED screen. Imagine a folded screen about the size of a 15" laptop folding out to ~30" and only needing USBPD ~100w or less. that would be awesome and something to consider too.

With all the pain and trouble some people go to carry around headphones and desktop DAMPs or transportable rigs I am quite sure we are going to see the same silliness very soon.

 

@ pukemon

I've built my own rigs and using one right now for a server / router / firewall / dvr / media box and the function list goes on with Raid 10 for storage and more slots available for additional functions in a mATX case. The UST's are nice but they're expensive as well as the foldable screens starting at 5 figure price tags.. The way we get to these being more common place is rejecting the status quo and doing it ourselves.

I cut the cord with TV a few years back and went internet only with my provider to not give them $100/mo for video content which in turn paid for the rig I built and expanded upon. I recently went with a 4K projector and dumped the conventional TV that sat in its place. Having the ability to shoot a 60" screen onto a wall works well and if it needs to be bigger just move the box back further for a whole wall experience. There are some pro's and con's with this type of setup but, the mobility of a 5-7lb projector is nice. With the rig setup with Plex as a tuner and a Chromecast w/ Google TV that's wireless there's plenty of flexibility for placement and content alike.

If you wanted to do the mobile rig / projector it's possible depending on your requirements. An ITX case could get you there with limited connectivity options other than a single Ethernet / WIFI + GPU in the single slot. You would end up with about 10#'s of equipment more powerful than most laptops though in a 2 piece package that requires AC outlet to power them. Of course if you're going to go micro you have to find a solution to the heat transfer issue you will see with such a small footprint.

 

by the time I get a rig to replace my p770zm I am quite sure I will have better, cheaper and more options available. the only reason I got a decked out DTR was I was making $90k a year. I just applied for disability recently and have hardly worked for 2 years.

whatever I get it will be more modest than a TOTL equivalent of what my DTR is. probably mid range cpu and mid range gpu. I have a FALD LCD sitting in storage and 2 1080p projectors at my disposal for now. If I have to get another monitor/projector it will probably be an UST laser projector because of less heat. between an xbox one and the projector puts out too much heat.

before I quit my good paying job I was trying to minimize my lifestyle anyways. last time I watched anything regular on tv was the 2008 olympics. I've watched only movies since then and used my TV as a computer monitor. since late 2018 when I realized just how much false news (in the USA) was being shown on my own through various sources and reading lots of history the last decade and finally thumbing through declassified documents I have hardly watched any movies realizing some movies are propaganda to rewrite history or keep the sick narrative going. it is taking American citizens a really long time to realize the US just picked up where the Nazis left off and that is not an exaggeration at all. The rest of the American citizens are getting paid to keep the theater going whether they realize it or not. but I digress.

Like I said, I'm really minimizing my life anyways. I keep wondering what happens to BTC when the petrodollar goes bye bye. I like gaming but am a console gamer and am content with a switch and xbox one for the rare time I do watch a streamed or blu ray these days, or occasinally play the halo series. In reality, figuring out my mental and physical health while I wait for disability I am also metaphorically eating popcorn and drinking coke. This pandemic was planned. Lots of stuff on the internet the last few years saying Gates was going to push a vaccine and lots of other stuff that already has happened.

I really think I am probably going to go with some smaller desktop rig, possibly transportable for where ever I end up living. Trying to scrape some change up and buy a portable DAC/AMP that can double as a desktop DAMP. Being diagnosed with asperger's at 44 puts hindsight in perspective for lots of things. Listening to music is my escape and medicine for now. I have been having seizures the last couple years and this one crappy doctor I goto pretends he ain't a drug dealer, says I don't look autistic and keeps trying to give me drugs that make me manic, give me more migraines and/or seizures. Sorry I keep weaving in and out of topic but it has to do with my aspie, reality and future prospects. I told my parents and some of my friends I don't have anymore that I saw some of this coming but I am officially Mr. Conspiracy Theorist. People still think phones spying on you is horsecrap. Snowden, Assange, Voorhies, Binney anybody? I hope Pine 64 or whatever the company is called is still around by the time I get my next phone. Hardware switches, and no android or iOS.

Yeah, I think I'm going to go mini desktop. Easier to tinker with, especially while my memory and cognition slowly dwindle. Laptops need more caution. I do wonder if Clevo or some other innovative ODM can come up with a 3 or 4 type c slots for USB PD and keep the heat from the charging circuits inside the laptop down to a minimum to make smaller power supplies. Volumetrically, my 330w PSU is bigger than many laptops these days. Ramble off.

 

Absolute yikes.

 

I guess it figures that a laptop that is marketed as modular and being hip because of it has to be tiny and comes with soldered CPU and no separate graphics...
The idea of having modules where one may even be able to swap in a new mobo is very nice though, same as the apparent ease with which they can change displays. Changing motherboards is currently almost an impossibility and changing screen types is also very difficult with all manufacturers so that would be a very nice change of pace.