Disappointment with Sager's sale strategy

Hey everyone,
Its a bit of a rant topic but I'm pretty disappointed with their decisions so I typed it up

I bought my Sager 9262 last Semptember from XoticPC. Excellent customer service, however that was not a good time to purchase the 9262 series. First the new Q9650 was coming out so I had to switch my order, then the SSD drives were removed as a option, so I had to switch my order, then the Sound Blaster X-Fi was back ordered so I had to do switch my order again. I have spent about $5000 on a maxed out 9262 back then. Now, heres the rant ...
I m sure everyone knows here that Sager sells their laptops as an upgradable machines and I was ensured that I would be able to upgrade my machine to whatever sager releases for it. (like a new GPU, CPU)

Now with the new D900F series and the 18' SLI thing, I m being screwed by Sager big time!!! the D900F does not have SLI and that new 18' only uses a weak QX9300. That doesnt even make sense but I ll came back to that.

Sager policy is that they will stop supporting any more upgrades for the 9262 as it will hurt the sales of the new laptops. When I ordered my first order with XoticPC, my order # was 6103, when I finally agreed on the final order, my order $ was 7146, so XoticPC is getting lots of $$ and lots of Sagers are being sold. Yet ....!!!! in Sagers mind I'm suppose to shell out another $5000, as that would probably be the price of an maxed out D900F, on a new laptop every year!!! Thats just a rip off and plain stupidity!!! Where's my promised upgradeability ?? I ll gladly pay even a $1000 for an overprices 280GTX SLI installation or even a mobo change if they feel like it, but I cant shell out another $5000 on a new laptop. Now, I'm sorry maybe its just me. Maybe all of sagers customers have that option to spent $5000 every year on new laptops, but I dont. I now, I m stupid, u can mock me all u want and laugh at how poor I am.

Also the issue wouldn't be that big if the D900F would be a super big new change in design for Sager. Apple does that all the time and prices their laptops high. However with apple there, really is a new complete redesign, aka Unibody. Sager decides to limit the 9262 life but simply not releasing the bios for the GTX280 cards as we all know, thats all there is required for them to work in 9262. ... So knowing that the 280GTX would actually work in my 9262 and that sager can do this upgrade and I am willing to pay for whatever they charge me, but it wont be done as it will hurt the sales of the new laptops, that are designed for idiots!!

Now heres why.

I do video editing for my job and lots of photoshop so I do need a fast CPU. I do like to play games as well. Now, the last CPU I would think of buying for my work is an i7!!! This CPU is strictly designed for gaming. So how can sager advertise the D900F as a workstation!? workstation for what? Word, excel?? and only 8Gb ram support!?? pointless ... if u need power, u re gonna be looking at 12Gb ram min, and at least 2x quad core CPUs. But apparently there are a lot of people who do intensive work and demand a gaming CPU with a gaming GPU and low amount of ram in one enclosure!!!

So maybe its a gaming laptop!?? i7 shines at about every video game u thorow at it!! so thats a good start but then ..... single GTX280. why!?? why!??? anyone who opened a 9262 knows that there is still plenty of space inside that could be used for cooling solutions. Q9650 uses 95W and is ultra cool with the current cooling solution in 9262 and there is about 25% more space still left behind the CPU for another grill or a heatpipe. i7 uses about 130W, so its a bit more but I again that 130 is only used when the CPU reaches 100% usage. There are people already now running a QX9650 in their 9262 with uses 130W as well and havent done any cooiong mods.
So Sager engineers looked at the stats of that new i7 and though: "man this requires new cooling, lets just throw out one of the GPU's and take their heatsink to cool it down" .... genius ... but then again one of the engineers noticed that sager will not be the king of the laptops with only one GPUs so they decided to make an entire new laptop and this time so they dont have to think about cooling, they take a 19' LCD and make a huge enclosure of it, so there is space for everything there. Nice thought but then again .... one of the engineers noticed that they cant use the i7 CPU as that is already being put inside the new D900F workstation for professionals so they take the QX9300 that only uses 45W and put in inside the 19' thingy. ... Now, I dont think anyone would argue that customizing the i7 with the GTX280 SLI would a killer laptop for gaming so what on earth were they thinking!!!?? D900F is not a workstation and the 19' thingy is just an okey gaming laptop.
Now, we all know they re gonna price those new laptops at around $5000 maxed out. So its not pretty cheap. but why spent $5000 on something that doesnt even know what it is!??? with the competition from ATi closing in ... 4870 crossfire and the OCZ thingy, why not crush the competition by making a killer laptop. Instead lets stop supporting everyone who bought a 9262, tell them to give us another $5000 on a new laptop that doesnt even make sense, and give them another reason to think about buying the competition as atleast the customer will know that they are not buying the king of laptops, that is not priced as the king of the laptops.
End of Rant
Thx everyone for reading
feel free to comment

 

i hope you realize one thing.

if you are happy with your laptop, and it meets all the requirements you have, then a newly released laptop does not make the laptop you own any worse.

just because a new laptop comes out, does NOT mean your laptop is obsolete. if it still meets your needs then what is the point of shelling out the $1000 upgrade for SLI etc.

also, if you rely on fast CPU speed for photoshop and video editing, why not just build a monster desktop for $5k (im assuming you travel, and this is not a valid option)?

maybe a laptop just isnt the best solution for you, or you need to rethink the requirements for this laptop.

also, remember that technology moves at a VERY rapid pace. anything you buy now will most likely be replaced with something faster, cheaper, quieter, cooler etc within 6 months to a year. i dont think anyone expects you to spend $5000/year on a laptop. thats just not sane.

you just happen to buy a product at the end of its life. it happens. its not bad marketing or anything else. it is just the pace of technology. every year new products are made, and old products are retired.

 

I agree that the Clevo's new policy does not make sense. But then many Companies over the years abandoned the principals that got them where they are, and then proceed on a downward spiral. Gateway, Dell, Microsoft, they've all stepped on it at one point or another. Sometimes they see the error in the new direction, and sometimes they just keep digging the holes deeper.

The good news is that you are no longer tempted to spend money to update. I myself skipped from the 7950 GTX SLI to the 8800 GTX SLI. I was going to pass on the 9800 GTX SLI and bite on the GTX280 SLI package. If they don't offer it, I don't have to find the funds for a non-cost effective upgrade... Thanks Clevo for helping me to save!

 

Troll alert. Some article I read a few days ago on Tom's hardaware states that with the same gpu the difference between i7 and core 2 is minimal and does not worth the investement. This is the reason for the 18 inch laptop with gpu and mobile processor. That one is going toi be the most powerful gaming laptop. The D900F is still powerful but not for gaming. Proabably the video encoders and people with scientific jobs (CAD math physics) will used it more.

Another article from Tom's hardware also shows that 4 GB of Ram can be difficult to fill up.

My next laptop will most proably be the D900f because I need a powerful CPU, but only after they go to the 32 nm technology.

I agree I with the upgradability issue. If the hardware can work with the motherboard they should support it



PL

 

I m very happy with my 9262, however I would like to upgrade to the GTX280 SLI. In some games, extra FPS is never a bad thing. Sadly Clevo does not want my money at all. They dont offer any more updates for 9262 and their new line up is not going to be worth the price. Sad, cause it is a good company and that 9262 is a great lappy. Its not the end of the world since I can still play games on it but I'm just spreading my opinion as I think their new strategy needs some tweaking. Nevertheless, I cant wait for the D900F benches and the GTX280 SLI too.

 

wow, thx

I guess, I cant have my opinion without being called a troll. lol

anyway ...

Cad work on the D900F!?? with GTX280!??? u re serious?

and the advantages of core i7 in gaming are very clear, espeacially if u compare everything stock as that's how laptops are most of the time. U cant overclock your C2d in a laptop so much that it will came close to the performance of the i7, so that article is not relevant.

 

For non GPU intensive CAD programs, the GTX280M would be powerful enough. But if you need more power, the new Quadros will be released soon. As already mentioned, the D900F was designed to be a mobile workstation, unlike the D90xC which was also kept in mind for gaming. The M98NU is the true gaming laptop from Clevo this time around.

 

You are not reading man . Same GPU i7 vs core 2 only a few fps difference!!!! I rremember that many were dissapointed. Your statement about i7 being designed for gaming is wrong.
These tests were done along time ago by Tom's hardware and then repeteted by nvidia.

The D900F would be a good station for my needs. You are right about the CAD application, but it would work perfectly for many programs (math and physics).

PL

 

For non intensive CAD programs but who buys a D900F for that!?? Its not a workstation and it never will be. Also the success of the new 19' Clevo is dependent on the overclockability of that QX9300. If the limit the OC in bios or only allow it to go up to 3.06Ghz then the CPU will be a bottleneck here. Competition is much better at OC with the QX9300. Judging from Clevos history, the new 19' laptop will have a hard time to keep his king of the laptops status. 4870s are just a little slower then the GTX280 but the 3.5Ghz CPU will bring them ahead.

 

As I said there are many other problems that need only CPU. For example my own codes in Fortran. I can mention also also matlab, maple, video enconding, mathematica and hundreds of many other applications.

They made you unhappy, but I am sure that there are many more that now will consider it to buy it.

Sorry you are left with a bitter taste from your purchase. It happens. I got screwed with n95 phone in a similar way. This is how the things goes. I will used my pc at maximum and when the time comes to buy a new workstation I will think more careful and take into account this behaiviour.

PL

 

You'd be surprised at how many people actually use the D90xC for it's multi threading capabilities rather than as a full fledged gaming machine. Besides, you can't setup mobile Quadros in SLI anyway. We all thought that the D900F would be Clevo's new gaming machine, but cutting off SLI support means that they had the mindset of it being a mobile workstation. Running multiple applications/virtualisation/encoding is where the D900F will truly shine.

 

I just dont get the i7 choice. They could have made it a much better workstation by putting Xeons inside and the Quadro card but they stick with gaming CPU and GPU. Its still enough power to handle different types of encoding but to be honest its a bit on insult to the gaming community. THe i7 is noticeably faster in games. That was its main purpose, not CAD, not other encoding programs. There are other CPUs better suited for that job. ... and the new 19' clevo that is suppose to be ultimate gaming laptops by some fanboys is here is limited by the CPU even when u have the space in a 19' enclosure for desktop type CPU. If Clevo blocks my upgreadabilty path for my laptop and then wants me to spend another $5000 on a new lappy, then at least they can make one that is logical and stays up to their reputation.

 

I deleted some posts. Please don't post unless you have something useful to say...

thank you

 

I can't comment on any of the comments regarding Sager/XoticPC but as has been mentioned CLEVO design the chassis so ultimately it's their decision, resellers have input of course but only to a point.

If you're doing video editing then the i7 is the perfect solution. It does shine in games but it also shines in pretty much anything you throw at it, especially in multi threaded applications. I certainally wouldn't class it as a gaming CPU. I'm sure all resellers will tell you that we all sold a lot of D901Cs for workstation useage with a single 9 series card or with a Quadro if CAD related. In my opinion the D900F is the perfect mobile workstation, especially with Quadro, and the 980NU will be at the top of the tree gaming wise, with a Q9100 and single 280M GTX you'll get 11.5k in 3DMark06 and with a QX9300 and SLI it will breeze through any game and also have decent multi threading performance.

I ran Solidworks on a 570TU with QX9300 and a 9800M GTX for a good few weeks as I wanted to take work home (designing a desktop chassis) and it was perfect, performance was actually very good though with an FX2700 or FX3700 it is better when you get into very complex models. So it is definitely possible to do CAD work on a GTX 280M, maybe not VERY intensive but that's what the FX3700 and the new Quadros are for.

Also on the thermal design, I've mentioned this before but just because a CPU is rated at 130W it doesn't mean that it will dissipate that much heat - it's not the case that a Q9650 dissipates 95W and a QX9650 130W which is why some people have run a QX with no real temp increase over a Q9650. It's worth taking into account that a i7 965 will hit 130W on full load and if you're running computational fluid dynamics software you may well need the system to be rock solid for days on end. With a larger chip than the Core 2 Quad, more heat, more power etc I would rather see CLEVO take a slightly cautious approach with thermal design if it means it's better suited to it's useage.

Of course not everyone will be happy with the updates and new chassis but infortunately you can't please everyone all of the time, I think CLEVO do a good job in trying to though.

 

Thanks Neil for the reply.

 

thx Neil. i understand all what u guys are saying. The D900F will do fine in all of the encoding programs but thats not my point. My point is why not create something that will be the king of the laptops, instead create 2 laptops that are just not worth their price. I just customized the D900F on your website and it came to £4500. Thats a lot of money and the performance in CAD will not be that much off than a 9262 with Xeons. Yes, some resellers offer xeons with the 9262. The extra performance of the i7 will only show up in gaming. The i7 will still be faster in video editing but it was never designed for it in the first place. and the $2500 9262 with a fast Xeon and 8Gb ram will have 90% of the D900F performance with 80% less price tag. Now ... games on the other hand, get a huge performance boost from the i7. Easily worth the extra price tag. and also lets not forget that so far the D900F, the ultimate workstation does not offer Quadro cards.

Also the only way the new 19' Clevo will succeed as a gaming laptop is is the QX9300 is overclockable. The only way. if clevo decides to limit the OC options via bios, u can say goodbye to the king of the laptops status. And anyway, they re gonna charge u big $$ for it and it still wont be as fast as it could have been if the stick to their original sales point, which was Desktop CPU's and fast GPUs. That was the only reason why u would be a clevo. If I wanted a medicore moblie core 2 duo I could have gone with a flashy XPS or some Alineware, cause at least they look good. Now u get, ugly design, slow CPU, big size, customer service that u will never know if u will ever use as the they can show up with a new laptop in about 2 months. So all the reasons why u would buy a clevo are gone Sadly, I dont want this company to become another dell or HP.

Also I challenge every reseller to show their sale numbers for the D900F once it will be available. With this economy and the laptop that doesnt make sense I wonder how many professionals are actually gonna run to buy this clevo. Also I wonder how many gamers are gonna spend another $5000 on a 19' thing that doesnt make sense when they can buy the $2200 asus with the 4870s in CF and upgrade to the QX9300 for still lower price than what that new Clevo will be goin for.

They could have made an i7 with SLI and another machine with Xeons and Quadro ( as apparetently the market for those is huge) and everyone would be happy

 

The D901C is a great laptop as is. It's more powerful than many people's gaming desktops... 3.0 Ghz Quad and sli 9800M gtx didn't become obsolete overnight

 

I think what the person that start this thread wanted to emphasize is that someone will be more inclined to spend more money on a Clevo, or to buy a Clevo, knowing it will be relatively easy to upgrade the laptop, similar to a desktop.

And the thing is that it is nice to upgrade the laptop because it prolongs its performance life and the satisfaction you receive from it. I think it is more desirable to upgrade and people like this idea, especially enthusiasts. And bare in mind that it is usually enthusiasts that buy Clevos.

Of course you become disappointed when you found out it is difficult to upgrade your laptop or impossible after which you believed this will be so. However you all know that it is in the interest of the seller, iow Clevo, to sell a full system rather than just one part and thus upgrades are not really encouraged, rather just tolerated.

I would love the day when you could make a laptop similar to a desktop, when you can go and buy a laptop video card from some random IT shop down the road. After all the laptop market is now larger than the desktop market. Eventually I think one manufacturer will break the general rule and will start supporting upgrades and custom built laptops and to be honest, my bet will rather be ASUS on than Clevo for being the first to do that

 

Interesting point, problem is that no matter what else you can upgrade in a laptop it stops at the CPU for 99.9% of people because new chips need new motherboards. The problem with mobile GPUs is that they are all manufacturered by one company and then delivered to the chassis manufacturer who integrate them into their design. Sometimes there are different PCB designs for different chassis so the only sure fire way to have a global standard would be for NVIDIA or ATI forcibly supply a single solution for each card and that would be very difficult for every laptop manufacturer to integrate. I do understand the point though, people want to upgrade to a newer GPU when they are available but of course there are also financial reasons and also the fact that the vast majority of people who buy laptops never think about upgrading their GPU. For example we get very few enquiries about GPU upgrades, by that I mean literally no more than a handful every year.

Back to the i7 CPUs quickly, they are clock for clock 20% faster than the equivilent Core 2 Quad or Xeon. a 2.93GHz i7 940 certainally won't give you 20% better fps in games than a 3GHz Q9650 Core 2 Quad but it will reduce render and encoding times by 20% so even a 920 i7 is comparable to a Q9650-QX9770 (3.2GHz). A 965 will be much much faster than the top Xeon offered in the D901C, probably 30%, we used to offer Xeon X3360 and X3370s but always made it clear that they were the same chip as the Q9550 and Q9650 - identicle performance, just branded as a Xeon with TCP/IP commands that the D901C didn't support.

 

But why compare 965 to X3370s?? lets compare it to W5580 that they could have used in the new D900F, at least as an option if they consider it to be a top notch professional workstation. Again, wheres the Quadro!? I have a certain budget every year I want to spent on upgrading PCs, buts its not $5000. Now if Clevo just stick with what they do best and their original formula and put i7 with GTX280 SLI( which actually should be colder then the 9800GTX series) and charge their big prize of $5000, u would be having my money now and we would not have this conversation. If clevo at least gave an upgrade to the gtX280 SLI for 9262, u would have my money right now and we would not have this conversation. Instead they create 2 new laptops that dont make sense and expect me to into their selling gimmick that the D900F is a professional workstation and that the 19" thingy is the ultimate gaming machine. Ofcourse both of those statements are wrong but the price remains the same and every 9262 user is feeling the same way as I do now (well at least those who want the upgrade) ... what I really hope is going to happen is that they will lock the bios for that QX9300 and then the old 9262 should be a faster gaming machine overall. That would be hilarious .... try to convince me to buy that laptop then lol ... anyway, what they should have done is stayed with their regular principle of 17' beast with i7 and SLI and if they feel that the majority of 9262 buyers are professionals with encoding work, they could have given a Xeon and Quadro option as well. Everyone would be happy

 

I think we'll have to disagree on a couple of points, the two new models make a lot of sense to a lot of people - I can base that purely on the number of enquiries we have had about each chassis. Maybe they don't look at it from your point of view because they don't already own a 901C.

The 980NU is a faster gaming laptop than the 901C purely because the 280 cards will out perform 9 series SLI. i7 with SLI didn't happen for a very good reason. At the moment the Quadro market is in a position where new cards have literally just been released so the mobile versions will follow. There are no Quadro cards available at present but the laptop isn't shipping for a month, there's lots of time

The i7 makes sense (rather than a W5580) because the chassis must appeal to both sides of the market. Perhaps that is a compromise for some people but it makes sense for the wider market (from our experience).

 

i agree to a point. you cant demand upgradability on technological leaps (C2Q --> I7), but then again theres new models for the same chasis every 6 months, and little/no upgradability. if there is, it oftentimes worth it to sell and buy all over again instead of upgrading

 

You're talking heat, but you give absolutely no thought to the power requirements of the i7 + 280M, 130w + 75w*2. These (the GPUs of thr D900F and M980NU) are the MXM3.0b cards, which have memory running at 950Mhz, not the 800Mhz MXM2.1 variant currently on the market. If i7 + 280M SLI worked, Clevo would've done it, I'm sure.


FYI, there is rumored to be an FX 4800M out this year.

 

haha, oh Niel. Nice formal talk I know u cant agree with me, that would be illogical. Hey, I wouldnt as well if I was a reseller. But I m not here to criticize anyone except Clevo. Also I dont get why the W5580 doesnt make sense since u re trying to sell me the D900F as a professional workstation so the wide market appeal doesnt count in my book. I dont want to argue with resellers as I understand your position. I just hope someone understands my postion. U ve just spent $5000 on a 9262 last year, u want to update it to the new tech this year and boom. No updates and Sager wants u to give them another $5000 and then forces u to buy either one of their new laptops that doesnt appeal both to gamers and pros as a workstation.

 

Considered one of the Lenovo workstation laptops or even Toshiba?

Sager isn't the only game in town and neither are laptops. (Desktops are cheaper and more powerful, if you know you are going to do a lot of work in one place, get the desktop to do it and get a lower mid level laptop to show it around)

 

"I m sure everyone knows here that Sager sells their laptops as an upgradable machines and I was ensured that I would be able to upgrade my machine to whatever sager releases for it. (like a new GPU, CPU) "

Who made that guarantee to you? Certainly not any of the reputable resellers, nor Sager itself.

 

After reading everything on here I’m going to agree with…everyone! Truly, both Neil and BlueForce both make really good points. However I think it comes down to the fact that laptops, for all their advances, simply are not desktops and that suppliers, resellers, marketers, and consumers all need to do a better job of playing nice with each other.

On one point I see that some resellers are ending their support of upgrades and support for older products much too quickly. This is especially true for MXM cards where users have PROVEN with experimentation that a card combination of a newer generation will work in a previous model laptop. I would really like to see resellers open up a bit on the customizable limits of their offerings and use some of their own R&D to see what cards are really possible in which laptops. And PLEASE find a way for consumers to buy MXM cards without resorting to eBay. Yes I know this is allot to ask, but ultimately it is YOUR reputation you have to protect when your product goes out the door, and a little differentiation between resellers is often lacking in this market.

Now, if a lack of support and upgradability is partly due to Clevo (maybe they have a policy not to provide the proper upgrades to the BIOS or if for some reason all GFX cards must be bundled with the chassis), so be it. I will put some blame on their side. And I put some blame on Nvidia for not finalizing MXM, but as this is a standard in the making it is “understandable” why things are not always working out.

Also Clevo must put in more R&D into design and support. They can’t afford to let this slide anymore since there is more and more competition in this space. MSI, ACER, Gateway, ASUS, HP, Lenovo, Toshiba and Dell all have gaming and/or workstation laptop lines now. Clevo cases may be the most flexible to upgrade, but as we can see for allot of us this area is still quite lacking: if you claim to be upgradable, be certain that the upgrade path is attainable.

I just have two words for marketers: you lie. I won’t go into depth about this but I stand by these words. Some resellers DO promise upgradability to new tech.

And to us consumers: we can be a picky, whiny bunch sometimes and then still give into paying for something we don’t want. Make sure you only buy what is going to satisfy you for the long run. Understand that the tech curve may be unfair at times. Companies (luckily) cannot read our minds and are going to make painful and sometimes bad decisions in our eyes.

And please, no matter how much someone promises that a laptop is upgradeable; buy your laptop in understanding that it is NOT going to be upgradable. It MAY be customizable, both within and outside warranty parameters, but never expect it to use any new technology. Please remember this, understand this, and you will be at peace much sooner.
Sorry if my rant warrants a modding down. It is not my intent to insult anyone, but this argument has been given so many times, and I just wanted to put everything into one place.

As for my personal pick, I’m going to choose the D900F. I’ve waited 5 years for i7 CPUs and I need my laptop to do everything (programming, video editing, database running, file server, gaming, vitual machines, 3D rendering, etc.). SLI and Crossfire have come a long way but it still is not QUITE there yet. Maybe in the next generation of laptop. Don’t get me wrong, I’m really disappointed that they couldn’t get SLI or Crossfire matched with an i7 (I bet they could have with more time and resources), but for the window they want to hit in the market I think they did the best they could and in the long run made the right choice for the company. Maybe not the right choice for every customer, but ... well, only time will tell.

 

If MXM was truly a standard, then it might make sense for someone to manufacture GTX280 Cards to fill a void in the current market for an upgrade path. But unfortunately one Card design won't work across platforms. There is money to be made here... Maybe a Dip Switch arrangement on the plug in Video card for making it compatible across different Laptop designs?

It does look like the "only Vista supports DX10, so you have to give up WinXP", marketing scheme to me. If you want GTX280, then you get I7, but you have to abandon your existing Laptop. Marketing obsolescence rather than functional obsolescence. Kinda like forcing all TV transmission signals to digital, I don't remember asking for that Law!

Shyster1, you are right that Clevo/Sager only implied an upgrade path. But then again, the customer is always right in the marketplace. All that this move by them does, is to re-enforce to customers that Clevo/Sager is not to be trusted to care about what some Laptop consumers really want.

 

Thank you rsgeiger...that says it all, and says it perfectly.

ANYONE who represents that a laptop can be expected to be upgradeable to newer technology than what has been certified for it by the ODM is indeed being...what's the new word???... disingenuous.

A couple of things the OP might want to consider are that:

1. Laptops are not desktops, and there is no laptop brand out there that I am aware of that will claim their models are upgradeable to new technology (except maybe Alienware, and their claims have been disproved over and over again)...so why should Sager be singled out with this "Disappointment" criticism?

2. There are good reasons for #1 above, and the two best are "thermal budget" and "power requirements". Unlike desktops, laptops operate in a very confined environment and two of the favorite complaints users have about laptops are the heat and the size of the AC Adapter. So when the OP criticizes about not having the Intel i7 plus GTX 280M in SLi, he is clearly not thinking about either the thermal budget, or the size of the AC Adapter that would be required to run such a configuration. Of course desktops are in much larger boxes, and sit on the floor away from your hands so while they tend to produce a great deal more heat, it is away from the user. Now, also consider the desktop power supply required for this same configuration. Would you even consider running it with less than a 450W power supply, or would you think 650W or even more would be more appropriate? Do you really want a laptop power supply that weighs over 3 pounds and is half the size of the laptop??

It is one thing to design a laptop in your mind, or on paper, and yet another to be able to then take those specifications and turn it into a marketable laptop that would appeal to a large enough market to justify the cost of bringing it to market.

Frankly, Clevo is the KING of high performance laptops, and while others have tried to match them...they have failed.

Ah, but you say users have experimented with new technology and it "works". Please remember while it may work in the short term, these experimenters have no idea about the thermal budget requirements and whether they are being exceeded, or the engineered power supply requirements and whether the AC Adapter is sufficient to supply those requirements without under powering the configuration which is the subject of the experiment. I wonder how many desktop experimenters would dare risk under powering their desktop?? Further, these experimenters do not have any warranty obligations as does Clevo. Therefore they can take risks with their experiments that Clevo simply cannot.

In the end, this has nothing to do with sales strategy, it only has to do with design, engineering and warranty limitations. Any claim to the contrary is unfounded, as is any disappointment with Clevo's or Sager's "sales strategy".

 

Nice closing Paladin
I agreed with Paladin. I myself would love to have Core i7 + SLI and I'm sure Clevo designer too, but other aspects make it impossible i guess... for now.

 

Thanks for your post paladin44. I agree whole heartedly with most of what you said. However, I still have other thoughts on one or two points.
1. Reseller’s claims.

Yes, Alienware is one of those disingenuous resellers, and I did not want to single out Clevo or Sager alone. But there are other dangerous Clevo resellers as well. *cough* PC Microworks *cough*

Yes, yes I do. If I am buying something like the D901C or the D900F, I know this thing is not my airplane movie player, it is meant to do work. And I have taken all of that into consideration. Thermal limits and cooling requirements I completely understand, but there are ways to make effective external power supplies that are not just outsourced tech from Taiwan. Kensington made excellent Flat and light power supplies for notebooks up to 120W. I would LOVE to see more of those as standard on notebooks with larger power requirements.

But this is my point. We are driven to try these things because Clevo doesn’t have the will or (more probably) the resources to do this sort of testing. I really cant see how a laptop can have two 9800GTXs but not ATI 3870 in Crossfire due to thermal concerns. But the fact that we do try, and the fact that is DOES work, within the thermal envelope, means that there is untapped potential and that overall there should be more options.

Ok, I agree it is unfounded. But there certainly IS a sales strategy, and it may true that it is limited to the technology we have available, but even in a basic economics course you learn that each company is trying to maximize their revenue (and thus their profit) and it might not be the case that a gold-encrusted-dual-quad-core-quad-SLI-2TB behemoth laptop, even if they could make it, would be the best choice of laptop as far as sales are concerned.

Otherwise you did have the perfect closing and I'll drop the subject now.

 

dont know why you would want a highpowered top end laptop atm.... specs of software will prob get very conservative for the next 10years + while the world gets back in order.


im being seriouse guys..
save your money and get a nice slicker laptop what exactly do u want the power for.. future games going to stay low speced for extended period.

boys will be boys.. but seriously u will be happyer with some thing thats nicer to use cheaper and less powerfull (regardless of your background atm)

 

always a good thing to do

doing work while beign able to easily relocate a few time a month

 

thx rsgeiger for the reply to the paladin post. Could not have put that better myself. ... I dont want to be rude but I d rather talk with regular users as resellers cant give u an unbiased opinion on the subject and paladin proves it. Its like Ford dealer coming here and saying that fords are the best. umm ok, nice, thx for the input but I d rather talk with people that actually own those laptops and hear their opinion.

The thermal budget is ofcourse not true. 9262 aka D900F could have taken the i7 and GTX SLI with no probs or with slight cooling mods. There was no need to make 2 new laptop line ups that are both not good. Current 9262 still has plenty of space inside that can be used for cooling purposes. Thats what I dont get. The engineers went: uuhhhh, ohhhh no can do. We cant put i7 with SLi in 17' form as there is not enough space. Ok ... so then then though. Yeah I know. Lets make a whole new laptop with 19' screen and then put SLI. Good but what happened to the i7?? why give us QX9300?? So according to the resellers that they say that according to clevo engineers the thermal budget is the reason why they want another $5000 from me for a stupid product. But why cramp i7 to the smaller 17' form then, from the start??? why not put it in the 19' form where u have plenty of space!?? nothing makes sense here. I really want someone to open up that D900F to see how much space inside is wasted, where they could have put another GTX. .... next do I want to see 3lbs power supply. Hell ... I dont give a The last thing I was concerned while buying my 9262 was its weight and its battery life so that argument is a bit ... well weird.

Anyway. I m just posting from my side of view. I m sure there are customers that want a D900F and that new 19' thingy but why risk loosing the old customers!?? all they had to do is put i7 with SLI and gamers would be happy and give the option for a xeon and quadro for the pros. Why spend all that $$ on R&D on new products when the old formula worked for years and kept everyone happy. ... and we all know that the 280GTX not working is 9262 is BS and that i7 and 280GTX SLI thermal budget is too high is also BS. All of those things can be done with no extra costs or at very little costs at all.

 

IMHO, the decision to make D900F and M980NU came from:
1. Technological aspect
2. Marketing aspect
3. Financial aspect

Probably designing Core i7 with SLI will need more time and money for R&D and testing. So, Clevo choose the instant solution which ofcourse give more benefits to all the above aspects.

 

Thanks for proving that you ave zero understanding of what it takes to engineer a notebook. All you say is, "They could put it in there if they wanted to." You don't talk any raw numbers, power consumption, or thermal budget. No matter how hard you try to ignore them, they exist. MXM3.0 280Ms (as I already said) take more power and will run hotter than the ones you're talking about. They're listed by Nvidia as >75w. So that's at least 150w for just the GPUs! Then there's the 130w for the Core i7 processor. That's at least 280w just between the three components. Are you paying attention? And it's about more than the AC Adapter. Now you have to look at the amount of heat ~280w+ of components is putting out, and the questions that brings when it's stuck together in a couple inches of notebook. Does the current setup have enough cooling? If not, we need a new heatsink, maybe a new fan system. Is there enough room in there for more copper? No? OK. Will it require a new chassis? Yes? OK. What was the budget for this project again? Budget. Yes. Believe it or not, Clevo doesn't make the lion's share of it's money from the very highest end product, and there is a budget. Sure, the company could throw millions into designing an i7 SLI monster, but will the money be made back? If Clevo was selling millions upon millions of D900s, things would be different, but the mobile enthusiast is an even smaller niche than the gaming desktop. The percentage of those mobile gamers/designers, who will carry a 450w+ external PSU, is even smaller. It just isn't a feasible decision for a boutique line of products. Not yet.

 

All I can say is although everyone has their own opinions about Clevo and the choices they make, I must for the record point out that (IMO) Clevo not making a 17" i7 system with SLI was a major blunder on their part, especially seeing as the new i7 D0 revisions are popping out with a TDP of only 95W this thing could have worked with the same cooling system and power brick the D901C uses.

 

It's quite possible that their design/engineering philosophy - which tends to be a bit conservative - just didn't permit them to get too experimental with system like that. It's entirely possible that such a system could have been put together, but if Clevo's engineers couldn't get comfortable with the long-term thermal stability of the system, that may have vetoed the configuration for the time being.

 

I guess that would be true if they thought i7's were going to stay at a TDP of 130W indefinitely but I'm quite sure Clevo knew the revisions were coming, they weren't a secret, IMO they knew and just chose to compete with ASUS (their arch rival in Taiwan) in the 18.4 market instead.

Once ASUS released that damned W90 and Clevo made the choice to compete with them in that 18.4" market, the 17" SLI legacy Clevo created was doomed.. bad move on Clevo's part for us, as I and I'm sure the majority of us would take a 17" Core i7 SLI rig any day over an 18.4 mobile quad limited SLI behemoth.

 

But if it's going into production now, and the 95w E0 isn't mass market and available by the tray and ready for the mass production of a notebook, a company can't wait to finalize the design with only the 130w processor on hand, and these things were finalized long ago. You guys need to think from the business side in these discussions, not only as the consumer.

And yes, to compete, you have to come out quickly. Clevo is already months behind, and as I said, there aren't a lot of customers to go around in this market. The M98 wasn't designed overnight, so it's not as if this was some knee-jerk reaction to the release of the W90.

 

Ok even IF they didn't know about upcoming D0 revisions that were slated to be released shortly before they were slated to release their new lineup I believe even with a TDP of 130W on the first gen i7's they can still accomplish a 17" i7 SLI system, with a "slightly" bigger fan with a faster RPM speed and some added wattage to the power supply. I believe we are not seeing this because it is strictly a competitive decision on Clevo's part and is a direct result of the Clevo vs ASUS Taiwanese war and ASUS's decision to go 18.4 on their flagship gaming laptop.

Oh and IMO the M98 is exactly a "knee jerk" reaction to ASUS's W90, with Clevo's design strategies I can see them being able to bring a "knee jerk response" of a laptop to compete with any company in easily a couple months or less even, as I'm sure like all competitive companies, they have contingency plans for all shapes and sizes of laptops.

 

i have only read that there is 95w E0 stepping core 2 duo and core 2 quads, and that the Core i7 is going from C0 steping to D0 stepping for the I7 975 / 950 which it's coming soon, but they will remain 130w parts.

do you have any link to these E0 stepping core i7 that's 95w?


thanks,

Edit: here is the link i read about D0 stepping http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i7-975xe.html

 

Yes you are correct, my mistake it is the D0 revision not E0 I'll have to go back and fix those in my posts and btw I was reading it a few weeks ago in some random overclocking forums (can't remember which one) and it was said to be rated 95W, I'll do my best to find it and post a link.

 

Some of us have serious overestimations of what even Clevo is capable of, technically and financially.

Both notebooks were debuted at Cebit 2009 as working models.

 

And I think some of us have under estimations of what they are capable of technically and financially, but one thing is certain, we all have our "opinions".

 

And the rest of us have just adopted the Tao of Clevo - go with the flow, not against it, and wait patiently, grasshopper, to see what comes out next.

 

To understand Clevo decision, you have to think like a corporate executive.
Lots of aspects considered just to make 1 decision. I already wrote it before.
Technological, Financial, Marketing (including price, profit margin, market segment, market competitor, etc).

If you still think Clevo decision from 1 aspect only, you will never satisfied.

 

Yes, master.

 

Am I a PC virtualizing a Mac, or a Mac virtualizing a PC?

 

The D900f and M980nu are easily explained.

Clevo, first company to build a laptop with a desktop cpu. Ok, maybe not a laptop, more like a monster. Clevo, first company to build an Sli laptop. D900 series chassis designed to handle both. Enter 2008/2009, intro of 16:9, 17" becoming replaced by 18.4". But wait, why stop having a 16:10 workstation? Let's put the nail in the coffin and one-up every other company with an i7 workstation. 18.4" can't be a workstation because 16:9 is for entertainment! But wait, we can't have Sli AND i7, and we still need high end gaming option, so let's use this new 18.4" chassis which may be the only option in the future if 16:10 fades away. This will be Clevo's 16:9 darkhorse.

At least that's how my buisiness sense sees it...