Feedback to Clevo R&D Team: What's missing or broken in your Skylake laptops?

NOTE - I am not arguing for or against Optimus, just illustrating points and making the case that you don't need to sacrifice performance with an "Optimus enabled" laptop.

As already clarified, it's definitely not 30ms, the figures quoted from Nvidia are kind of accurate but actually what they say is that copying a frame takes approximately 20% of the frame display time which @ 60FPS (rendered, not displayed) would be 3.33ms as correctly stated above. However, you have to take into account the increased resolution that VR runs at on most HMDs and not only the increase from 60Hz to 90Hz.

What is actually going on is this (this is the maths, not physically tested latency of course):

- we have bandwidth of 8GB/s from the PCIe x16 on the Clevo Optimus laptops that we're discussing
- from this figure and then the frame buffer size required for a single 1920x1080 frame, the delay is approximately 732uS
- if you push that up to 4K it's around 3ms

The Optimus Copy Engine takes the load off the dGPU (so that it's not having to actually copy the frame buffer itself) and acts as a transfer between the GPU frame buffer memory and the main system memory used by the iGP - over the PCIe bus. The iGP then reads the frame from the frame buffer/system memory and then outputs it to the display.

Agree with your points on trusting a reseller, but in this case and with your example it's not completely in context. There are two key things are missing here which means that you don't need to make that performance sacrifice:

1/ on the Clevo P series the external outputs are connected directly to the dGPU, so Optimus/MSHYBRID (I threw it in just to be inclusive, this forum dpesn't need another in depth discussion about the difference between the two ;-) isn't involved here at all

2/ With any Clevo P series that has a 10 series GPU, you can run it in dGPU mode and that completely bypasses the iGP. Sure you need to restart the laptop to switch between "through-iGP/MYHYBRID" and dGPU mode, but if as you say you need a dGPU system then you can have one, with the option to switch it into MSHYBRID/GPU switching mode laptop if and when you need it for extended battery life etc.

Thus no wasted potential - you can simply have longer battery life with it turned on and then dGPU power to the internal display when you need it. The other option at the moment is to purchase a dGPU only chassis, which means you'd loose the additional battery life and then have to get a MXM GPU chassis which would be thicker and heavier - a problem for some, not for others

You need to take into account the difference between what something like FRAPS tells you, which is the number of rendered frames per second, and what the display is actually showing per second. This is what the other comments on here are talking about, but it's nowhere near close to 50% and as I mentioned above with the MUX you can switch to dGPU mode whenever you need.

 

The hardware switch actually changes the wiring, this bypasses optimus in dedicated mode avoiding any drawbacks.

It's purely a cost vs benefit thing at that point.

 

Good info, but doesn't help me having a first-gen P650SG with Optimus on all internal and external display outputs, and no mux.

 

Intel unlocking display overclocking can help some of course.

 

Not really, can't even reach 70Hz on the internal panel.

 

Ouch, looks like you lost that lottery, if you really wanted it can be swapped of course but you do roll the dice again so there is that chance it wont clock well.

 

This isn't even supported on a desktop PC mainboard, the iGPU outputs on them are physically different outputs to the GPU outputs itself. In a laptop you would still need to run the same internal display from both, which Intel just doesn't support.

 

You can run optimus off the motherboard outputs IIRC on a desktop board.

In my old GS30 setup I had a Titan X running optimus on the internal display ^-^

 

I see your point and sympathise accordingly ;-)

 

Nah, I'd go external if I wanted 120/144 Hz. IPS laptop panels probably just don't OC as well as TN ones. My previous laptop had a TN panel that did 120Hz stable.

Does that sympathy include sending me one of those new muxed P-series notebooks?

 

I'm sure it does.... If you drop the cash for one I am sure they could get one out to you in double quick time

 

I was not aware that there are Clevo solutions where you can just switch the iGPU off. Great job then!

I am still bothered by the days when I lost ~10 ms of delay due to Optimus.

At any rate, this makes them fully usage.

While we're on this conversation, Optimus does not work as long as G-sync exists on that system, no?

 

The hardware switch takes you between optimus/IGP and G-sync/dedicated. You are right they can not be used at the same time as a direct link to the dGPU to control display timing is required.

 

Nice, so Clevo does have a lot more in their sleeve than it seems at first sight!

 

Now if only they will add MUX switch or similar switching to their MSHYBRID based laptops onto the P870XX & P775XX systems.

 

@Georgel @bennyg honestly even knowing what it can do to latency, because the difference made little to me i still want it haha

well honestly i can think of a replacement if we seriously cant be having it due to cost like what meaker said, then we need laptop with SLI GPU to have capability to boot off slave GPU as primary. when primary GPU goes bad, we dont need to disassemble the entire thing, swap the GPU around then put them back, we can simply change say, a setting in bios then it'll just work until we get replacement.

can't have computer go bad and not able to use it for weeks waiting for replacement that might also have issue or delay, simply unacceptable.

the IGPU wanted is simply for those reasons, and of course battery.

 

Exactly! Making the dGPU completely optional is what we're asking for here, resulting in a lighter and less expensive and battery hungry product. I have no use for a dGPU but still need desktop class CPU performance...

 

I can't remember the model(s) off the top of my head (hopefully a reseller can chime in), but Clevo does have ones with desktop CPU only, no dGPU at all.

 

There is the NP7850 type systems that focus a bit more on the CPU.

 

Any Clevo P series laptop has the external displays connected directly to the dGPU?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

Yes, basically all of them to some degree. On:

- (no iGPU models) P75x/P77x/P775/P870 dGPU -> all external outputs
- (Optimus/MSHYBRID models) P65x/P67x/PA70 dGPU -> all external outputs.
- P64x/N85x/N87x etc have 1x miniDP direct to the dGPU.
- PA70 has 1x mDP and 1x HDMI driven directly from the dGPU

This external output functionality is fixed, it is not affected by switching between dGPU mode and MYHYBRID mode (in the models above which support this) because that only affects the routing for the internal display, which is primarily to support G-Sync but as widely discussed in this and other threads it has other benefits as well.

 

What about older generations?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

The Optimus models with an "S" suffix (the first gen of Nvidia 9 series GPU chassis) such as the P650SG have all external outputs via iGPU, not direct to the dGPU. The models since then with "R" and "H" suffix have all outputs direct to the dGPU. All the non optimus models have a direct connection of course as no iGPU usage.

 

why is it better directly to dgp? more performance like gaming on external displays?

 

So you get G-sync and all the other output capabilities of the nvidia chip (number of outputs etc). If you are plugged into a monitor it's likely you are plugged in.

 

There's the Clevo W650KK, which comes with a BGA GTX 1050/Ti, and an LGA 1151 slot.

 

7 out of 9 crippled nerfed. old smaller laptops are like that, soldered GPU and LGA/PGA CPU. this is what we use to get, for years until they screwed us.

 

Well until the market voted for thinner designs that allowed intel to go for a cheaper manufacturing route and we all know what Intel will go for if given the chance.

 

Also guaranteed product movement. If replacing a mobo necessarily means replacing the CPU to most repair centers that can't reliably re-solder a CPU then they move more chips.

 

I have a P775Tm1-G, and I can confirm all the issues that the OP posted. On that note, is there a way to contorl the keyboard RGB at all? I installed Clevo Control Center and while the program starts, the only thing I noticed that it actually does change is brightness of the screen. Nothing else is working. Keyboard control doesnt work at all. Cant even turn the lights off.

 

Re-install the clevo control centre.

 

I've done that. I think I have an old version. Is there a page that has the most current version?

 

Did you check our download page?

 

I don't know which page you're referring to. I went to the download page for my model and it wasn't listed there. Downloaded from another laptops page.

 

http://www.sagernotebook.com/drivers.php?cat=684

Our download page as above, though your reseller really should provide these to you.

 

Ah thanks. I was going to the clevo page. I'll give these a shot.

 

Thanks for the link. That one worked. Everything seemed to work fine, except you cant OC the cache (though I couldn't using ThrottleStop either, so could be a bios issue).
Well, my only complaints now are the fans not working correctly. Ran Cinebench yesterday and my cores all hit 95c, and the only fan the spun up was the GPU fan for some reason. The CPU fan works most of the time, but that is kinda annoying when it doesnt work when you need it to.
The other issue is the popping speakers. Whenever the computer starts, or sometimes when a program starts or shuts down, the speakers pop.

 

Did you install the control center just like that? It bundles with XTU which is known to mess with the fans.

 

Yep the cache frequency wont change after skylake.

 

XTU didnt install with it, so dont think thats the issue. Fans acted weird before I ever installed control center. I've entirely lost my PCH temp sensor somehow.

Ah, thats unfortunate. Is this by design, or is it something they will fix going forward?

 

By design it is linked to another frequency IIRC, it did not have much of an impact if any too anyway. Same for the desktops on this too.

 

Yeah, it doesnt make much of a difference. Just as an OCer, every little thing helps.

 

Hi. BIOS U-P-D-A-T-E...

P750DM-G (Mine come from EvoC) :

1) a NEW bios (the latest 1.05.15) with natively updated option rom, intel ME,etc... AND an updated Thunderbolt AlpineRidge Firmware (V16 inside)

We can see on intel website AlpineRidge Firmware V25... : To solve problem with eGPU solution, or for example, external HDD TB3 rack can't wake from sleepmode : Need to switch off/switch on and restart the PC to see the external HDD into the OS.

A lot of Thunderbolt hardware require at least V18 (or NVM18 if you prefer) to work without probs.


2) Bios Option ("Add boot entry") to choose which EFI OS to boot, after a CMOS reset, if you have more than one, the bios choose automatically to boot Windows in first.
Need to remove Windows EFI directory from EFI partition to force the bios to choose the other OS. After this, you can put the Win EFI directory, no prob.

 

He CLEVO .. I hate you. I will never buy again from you. You suck . Your support sucks. Your FTP site is a JOKE. Your drivers SUCK. Your control Center is a insult to software engineering. Your fan control is a mutant lovechild of a retarded hill billy paired with a goat. Your BIOS support is a undead who forgot to live before dying and coming back.
I have a 770 DM-g and its basically a piece of trash i paid 2500$ for. I cant get your fans to shut up , even when the cpu is doing nigh nothing, or they are triggered by the slightest spike , your temperature sensor readout is as accurate as a smear of dung, the "settings" in "custom" are COSMETIC , they do JACKSHIT NOTHING.
It boots slow as a turd even from 960 PCI-E NVME . The installed BIOS doesnt even deserve the name BIOS and has never received a single update. My Laptop runs the INTEL ME firmware that makes me a open book to every hacker on the planet. Do you care? No you dont give a flying F. F YOU CLEVO. Please forward this kind endorsement to Clevo cuz im DONE WITH YOU .

 

This had me ROFL...I mean really, I haven't laughed so hard in weeks. I love the analogies, even if the language is a bit colorful. I suppose there will be an angry letter to follow?

However the beef is not so much with Clevo, but rather whoever built your Clevo, and has since failed to support you properly.

 

Well, the fans do that on a laptop with a desktop CPU tho.

@Donald@HIDevolution is right tho, a good support company wouldn't have let this happen - this is why I'm really looking into the services of HID recently, especially with 8700K being probably even hotter than 6700K

 

No release of BIOS, FIRMWARE, DRIVER = One of the MOST VICIOUS Form of planned obsolecence.

CLEVO R&D NEED to FOCUS on THIS Point.

Regards, ray.

 

I'd say vicious is a little overstating. More like the form with the least effort involved.

 

Agreed, it takes them nothing to ignore it

 

@Donald@HIDevolution got a few questions need help!

TB3, how much power/current/voltage limit does it supply on the new 870tm?
870tm prema bios, is that only available to those who purchased via HID?