Final GPU decision time coming... 7970, 680m, 675m?

First - I apologize for making another one of these help me threads. But, I just feel it necessary. With that said...

I thought I had it all figured out but these constant threads complaining about the 7970m really have me scared.

I'm buying a laptop that is going to be eventually my girlfriends, but will be used until February by me as a college, gaming, CAD workstation. None of the CAD work will include huge assemblies mind you. Just basic 3D work and a bunch of 2D drawings.

I thought I had it all figured out by ordering the 7970m for its increased gpgpu performance over the 680m for my cad work. But all these complaints have me scared. Would I be better off reverting back to a 675m? Because going to a 680m on this laptop is really more then i'm looking to spend not to mention its way overkill for what my girlfriend will ever use it for. The only reason I'm going as far as the 7970m is because I will be using it until February.

This decision will be made final the last week of the month when I order my laptop from Mythlogic. I can't wait, once I figure out which GPU to go with that is!

 

if you had made this thread a poll, i would have voted 675m based on all that you've said.

 

Thanks... if it helps I'll mainly be playing BF3, maybe a little COD. Maybe a few other games eventually... but mainly those.

 

Agree with Matt, based on your needs and how it'll only temporarily be yours, much better to just go with 675m. It can handle the latest games quite well with reduced settings.

 

For what you posted earlier I would suggest the 675m, bare in mind that the 680M is twice as powerful as the 675M

 

Definitely go with the 675m, it will provide enough power for your apps and also gaming at high settings.

I think the 680m is exactly 2 x 675m's as the score of the gtx 580m in SLI is the same as 1 gtx 680m. (we all know the 675m is just the gtx 580m with a new name)

 

You guys dont think I'll be kicking myself later for not spending the extra $75 on the 7970m? Especially if they sort out the enduro/driver issues?

I'm all for the advice. Just want to be certain! I really do appreciate it! Steering me away from the 7970m isn't hard considering what I've read. I just know its a beast of a card if they can get it working right. And I wouldn't cry about having a second really nice laptop in the house in case my eventual purchase is ever out of commission for some reason.

 

It's all mind games man.

1) If AMD does nothing, and Clevo and Sager do nothing, then skipping the 7970m would be a good idea.

2) If AMD and Clevo do some thing and solve 90%+ of the problems regarding utilization, then skipping the 7970m would be a bad idea.

We still don't know how it will turn out. The Anandtech article gave hope that we will see some thing from AMD by the end of the year, but AMD has not officially made a statement. We still don't know if the problem is hardware related either.

We are 8 months away from the 8000m series being released to the average consumer. That will be a very long and hard 8 months of losses in the high end mobile market for AMD. I doubt they will want to endure that, and because of that I would assume they at least get some thing done before the next generation comes around. Or, I may be wrong in that they will lose much money, and they may just let the 7000m series go and take a small hit.

The return/exchange madness of last and this month have already put resellers down pretty badly. The only one's who are responsible for shaping perfected drivers are Clevo and Sager, and neither of them lost money in this deal since they neither deal with returns (unless you bought from them directly) nor do they produce the 7970m. They will be happy to deal out all of the GTX 680ms they can, because they make more money that way. At least we know Sager initially cared in the beginning, but at this point who knows how their attitude has changed. They haven't said a word to us in many weeks.

 

I was in the same position as you but finally decided to go with 7970m, even with the enduro problems. It's only 50 more than 675m and if for some reason I don't like the performance, I can always downgrade back to 675m.

In other hand, AMD will have to sort this out if they want to continue with the competition in the market.

 

From everything I've read, the 7970m performance is still comparable or better than the 675m even with the games that have performance issues. Plus 7970m is better for CAD work. Sorry don't mean to make the decision more difficult for you. BF3 seems to suffer with occasional dips to the 20's otherwise I guess it manages ok. Search '7970m bf3' at YouTube and check out vids.

 

i'm finding $100 more on most of the resellers' sites which, in this case, may be the proverbial straw. i think HTWingNut makes the most compelling case for the 7970 with the biggest consideration outside of his points being that this will no longer be your laptop in ~5 months.

 

With the GTX675M you can lower the graphic settings to high/medium and achieve constant 45-60 fps. On the HD7970M with Enduro issue, lowering the graphic setting will only reduce the GPU utilization and still result in the same fps as the higher settings did.

 

I had the same difficulty in choosing, and I decided to go with the 675. I am very happy with my decision, it overclocks quite well, and I have had absolutely no problems. I prefer to just get it and forget it, versus checking every day to see if something I paid money for got fixed yet.

 

I think everyone here has given you great information. In the end I also think you should buy the best of what you can afford that works today; that way you have no regrets. I totally agree with DeutschPantherV about coming here every day to check for a fix.

 

there IS one perfect solution...
Get an alienware with 7970M........................
there you can skip all the issues....
In xotic you can get one for under US1800, they even charge MORE for the 675M... lol

I would go for the 7970 anyway, but the alienware is truly the best choice, today

 

Or the new Clevo model that doesn't have switchable graphics. The looks of the Alienware laptops are certainly not for everyone.

 

What model is that? The HM series? Not having switcheable graphics at all might not be so good an option if enduro gets fixed, i think the best choice TODAY would be AW and its capability to choose what to do.

 

i think Montage is referring to the p370em/np9370, however op never asked for any assistance in brand selection. he's likely in the best position to determine what's right for him in that regard. you can get many different brands with much the same guts after all.

 

Why not go for a W150ER or W350ET? These contain a GT 650m or 660m, which is kepler, (vs Fermi for 675m) and they will be cheaper, can contain 2 HD's + optical (vs 1 + optical for P150) will get better battery life, and seem like a better fit for you.

If you are shopping 17" models these also come in 17" with the W170ER and W370ET.

 

Sorry it took me a couple days to get back here, I've had a crazy few days!

I plan on buying from Mythlogic, which is why I know its $75 more to upgrade from 675m to the 7970m.

As far as the model switch, I really think its a waste to buy a 370EM with one GPU. Not to mention my girl is 5'2" and being a small girl, she likes smaller things. A 15" laptop is the biggest she wants. I was actually originally planning on buying her a 170EM to get her a bigger, nicer screen as we sometimes lay in bed watching Netflix - but when I eased into the topic she said she really doens't like how big 17" laptops are. Then as a test I borrowed my moms laptop and brought it over here when we were having issues with her current POS. She hated the size in every way. So, that being said - 15" laptops is what she/I will be getting. When I buy my laptop come February - I'll be looking for at least a 17". Though I'm not a huge fan of Alienware design - I may be looking in that direction because of fancying a dual GPU setup for myself. I also have hopes for the 270WM replacement, as a true DTR is something I've always fancied. In the past I just couldn't justify the cost as I didn't truly have a need other then for the fun factor, ie gaming. Now that I actually have a use for it with my new career path - I may decide to splurge a bit. But, one step at a time - back to this purcahse... lol

I really dont want to risk being disappointed with the CAD performance on anything less then a 675m. I know the 580's have coped well with CAD programs in the past, with the way the new Keplers work - if the 680m has a large disadvantage in GPGPU computation, I dont even want to think about the difference for something like a 650 or 660m. So that brings me back to the 675m or 7970m decision. I too thought for quite a while in the beginning that there was no way that AMD would allow this to go on for long, but at this point I'm starting to wonder. Granted that new article definitely gives one some hope again - but I hate to get my hopes to high to end up getting them thrown in the trash.

As far as getting the best I can afford, its really less of a question of that and more of which will work best. Really from the CAD end of it everything says go to the 7970M which is less money then the 680m. But I didn't know if maybe someone had some experience running AutoCAD, ProE, Inventor, etc on the 680m had found the case to be different because of the issues the 7970m has had at times. I had thought the utilization issues included the CAD end of things, but that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems to be down to weather or not I can deal with having issues with some games, BF3 in particular considering its the game I would be playing the most.

Ugh, I hate decisions like this!!!

 

Kepler GPGPU performance is VERY MIS-UNDERSTOOD by most people.

Most people think Kepler, as a whole, has reduced GPGPU perf. This is false. In every chip stack nVidia releases, the top end chip has full GPGPU performance while the lesser chips have nerfed GPGPU performance. Yes, Fermi is like this too.

The top end chips are GF100 and GF110 for Fermi and GK110 for Kepler. GK110 is not out yet, however.
The lower end Fermi chips GF104, GF114, GF108, etc, all have nerfed GPGPU performance.
The lower end Kepler chips (currently only GK104 and GK107) have nerfed GPGPU performance just the same.

580m/675m are based on GF114, which is a NERFED Fermi chip just like GK104 (680m) and GK107 (660m/650m/etc).

The ONLY FULL PERFORMANCE mobile gpu's are GTX480m(GF100), and Quadro 5000m(GF100), and Quadro 5010m(GF110).

Short Version: GTX580/670/675m is crippled just the same as 680m. People think ALL Fermi chips are faster in GPGPU than Kepler, this is false! Only GF100/GF110 are faster in GPGPU!

 

Ehmmmm, go for the 7970M, read this post about BF3 and 7970M, it might help you decide. Even if the issues are not solved quickly it seems one can play BF3 at high (not ultra) settings for the time being. And even if 680M isnt that bad for CAD (i dont know this anyway) 7970 is a lot better.
Also take into account many 7970M owners arent here complaining and some even say there arent any problems, so the issue is really hard to catch and not so prevalent.

And if you need more, well its US300 or more difference so even if its not as good as a 680M, its definetely worth your buy.

675M...? hummmm i dont think is the right way to go. In that case go for a 650M or 660M wich are a lot cheaper and overclockeable, still prob bad for CAD.

 

BTW CAD doesnt actually use compute.... it is just graphics...

If you program CUDA and do double precision floating point, then you want GF100/110. If you arent doing that, then it doesnt matter what GPU you use.

 

Have you tried what i posted here? it shows the lowering graphics problem can be improved, try it.
I havent teste it myself but i believe it might help you getting better FPS lowering graphics settings in games (specially BF3)

regards
Voz

 

I think I'm gonna go with the 7970m and hope and pray they fix it. The end of October will be around my 30 day mark after purchase, so if I really feel like the thing is hopeless - I'll just make a switch to either the 675M or the 680M if I have the cash to spare.

 

good idea, besides you have now a whole lot of info to test and make up your own mind about the issues at hand with the 7970M.
In the worst scenario you swap your card.

 

Honestly not a bad idea. I am sure they will fix it eventually and the 7970m is a really good GPU.

 

well now we have official confirmation, all our hopes start coming true and you can definitely (most likely ate least) go for the 7970M

Originally Posted by Marc@AMD
I want to thank all those users that have been patient in this matter, and peristent in providing helpful information and feedback to the community.

We have received some positive news from the Driver Development Team. A driver is planned to be released in the near future that will provide significant improvements to notebooks enabled withAMD Enduro™ Technology.

Please stay tuned to our support.amd.com site for the driver posting.

Source: AMD Game Forums - The Clevo 7970M Enduro/under-utilization debacle.

 

If you are ok with the near future possibly ranging from a week to a few months, it seems it is now safe to go with the 7970m. AMD has shown they care, despite not putting out a press release, likely as not to totally cause a meltdown in the mobile sector.

 

This is Enduro "5.5" not the utilization issue. The utilization issue will not be fixed in the first next driver. It wont be till the second or third maybe. Remember I said this when everyone gets mad after it comes out and doesn't fix the utilization issue. I dont know why everyone has their own idea about when this is going to be fixed but this is what AMD said...

 

Most likely it won't be entirely fixed, but the post from Marc certainly seems to be refferring to performance increases too.

 

What makes you think that? Sounds to me like it is exactly the changes they said would be there in the Anandtech post.

 

The part about significant improvements.

 

I mostly agree with you, Anandtech did say the next driver wasnt gonna do much about performance issues, BUT Mark AMD has me wondering, specially this bit:
"significant improvements"
So now i aint that sure if the first driver wont fix performance at all... probably wont be the final release and the best fix, but i think i will fix some issues

 

As far as AMD is concerned the updates to the Enduro control panels are "significant improvements."

 

So they told you as much?

 

Right now we can interpret many ways that phrase.
Guess we will just have to wait and see, no biggie if no performance boost comes with the first driver, it was expected not to.
Maybe someone can post in AMD forum and ask Mark AMD for details, i couldnt register, never got the verification mail for some odd reason. Although i dont think Mark will say anything else before the actual release...

 

This is just false.

AnandTech - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680M: Kepler GK104 Goes Mobile

You'll see about a 50% increase on average.

 

I would have to go with the 7970m for the price and the capacity. What's the point of getting a 675 anyway ? It is already struggling with a lot of the latest titles, so it's not like it's going to get any better...... Either you pay the LARGE premium for the 680m or you get the excellent 7970m and you can look forward to increased performance in upcoming months....... I am not saying the 680m is not bad , it's just not worth THAT much more than everything else ....

 

Actually no, on average it is twice as fast.

 

agreed, people need to calm down and stop celebrating nowhere has it been said that the issue has been fixed. Significant improvements can mean anything in marketing speak.

 

Oh you're right. Good supporting evidence

 

will you guys analyze notebookcheck's data (675m vs. 680m) for me?

by the way, OP, based on the CAD benches they ran it seems like you're making the right call with the 7970.

 

They told everyone and there are even slides documenting as such! What is described here is what you're getting. Nothing more, nothing less. It's blatantly obvious to me. I guess you guys just don't understand how marketing guys work, and especially how they like to talk about what the engineers are doing. To them a bunch of new features are a pretty big deal. If one of those features was better performance they would have mentioned it in the slides.

 

First of all i almost always agree with you. I think the fix is coming in the next driver release or the one after that.
All we can do for now is speculate and try to interpret a single post from AMDs forum.
Now i do agree with Montage and others on this. To me what Mark AMD posted does imply the fix for the underutilization issue is coming.
To explain why i think this lets take a quick look at the post itself and other relevant data:

1) Anandtech's article was posted 10 days ago, it surely states the next driver release will mostly be cosmetic UI improvements, and that there is a second driver release coming that will adress the GPU utilization issues.

2) After the comments pointed more at the GPU utilization issue, and Jarred made some quick tests, he edited his own article adding some 3 or 4 paragraphs specifically abouty the GPU % utilization in games. This by itself is huge and can be interpreted as a lack of knowledge BEFORE the comments about the issues, so the edition put the ball in AMDs court.

3) In a thread called:
The Clevo 7970M Enduro/under-utilization debacle. (part 2 by the way, part 1 was closed by Mark AMD himself) Mark AMD posted 3 days ago (13th sept), a full week after Anandtech's article, the only official info about the incoming drivers and what they will bring to the table.

4) Now its very important to notice WHERE Mark AMD posted, he didnt open a fresh thread, he posted on a thread titled "The Clevo 7970M Enduro/under-utilization debacle." DEBACLE, UNDERUTILIZATION are keywords. Posting on this very thread does imply the underutilization issue is the "performance improvements" he is talking about. If not he would have opened a fresh thread and titled it: "new AMD 7000 series drivers release soon" or something like it.

5) Now lets start defragging the post itself

The first few words clearly point to the underutilization issues, there is not one "those users"'s post asking for UI improvements, not that i have read.

Now this is the more vague and misterious bit of his post. The improvements he is talking about are clearly (to me) the GPU underutilization issues, mostly due to his first paragraph, the location of his post and the timing of the same (one week after Anandtech's edited article). Also note he specifically mentions AMD Enduro, and what we all have posted about enduro is the GPU utilization issue.
So the only real mistery is when these "near future" is coming. Probably as stated in Anandtech's article the first driver release will not adress the GPU %s, probably. Surely the issue WILL be adressed this year, not next year, surely.

6) So taking all things into account there is evidence that the fix will come sooner than later. Anandtech's article edition might as well caused AMD to switch its original timeframe considering the issue was officially aknowledged by Anandtech. The fact that MARKAMD posted (WHERE he posted) 1 week after the article was edited is, to me, not a coincidence.

7) Taking the timeframe into account its obvious Anandtech's article slides did not contain a thing about the underutilization improvements, because it wasnt sketual to be included when the slides were made. But the comments, Jarred's edition and MarkAMD post have probably shifted the new drivers main focus, towards what we all are asking for.

ANYWAY, either if the first driver release is only cosmethic, we sure have official recognition that the underutilization is a problem that will be adressed, there is enough information to confirm this beyond doubt.

so hope, and even certainty are fully valid feelings right now.
Those who want to be scepthic and negative or went green, wont really aknowledge any coming improvements.
-----------------------------------------
So if you ask ME, YES definetely go for the 7970M NOW, you will save 300 and have a beast notebook in the near future.

regards
Voz

 

This right here is all I am saying. Yes, AMD recognizes the issue, but this first next driver will only be the Enduro UI updates. The performance / utilization issues will be fixed next driver.

I guess we will have to wait and see, though. Also, generally I usually buy AMD graphics products over nVidia. I have 7970 crossfire in my desktop and my last several setups have been nearly exclusively AMD/ATI. It's not like I am some nVidia fan boy, if anything it's the opposite.

 

I hope this helps.
I had the 670M(G75VW, exchanged for G55VW), 660M(G55VW) and the 680M(NP9150)
The 680M hovers around 45-50FPS max with BF3 on ultra w/AA and motion blur on 64 congested areas in maps. Rarely dips below 35(youtube running in background etc).
The 660m and the 670m couldn't do that and I noticed a big difference. This is from personal experience and not from looking at specs. I had all 3 and I dig the 680m and noticed much bigger difference then when I had the 670, 660m when I had to turn down the graphics settings.

 

if you dont mind turning down the AA stuff a bit, then with the 675m you can still achieve frame rates in the high 30s to 40s with ultra 1080p with all the texture, effects etc on ultra

 

GTX 660M
Effects/texture on ultra
Blur OFF AA OFF set to SSAO
1080P
I can do 40S with my GTX 660M 64/online. Very playable so I imagine the 675 can do better.

 

i didnt turn AA off, just a one notch lower. AA deferred is on X2, post post on medium, anisotropic 16X and HBAO. get around 40 frames on operation firestorm