Got my NP8660, and it's awesome, and I'm pretty certain I'm sending it back

Hi guys,

I have a lot on my plate at the moment and don't have time to write a review, but I did receive my NP8660 today and it is awesome. It is incredibly fast (coming from a PowerBook G4 what wouldn't be), high quality (solid), and beautiful. Silent mode is almost a mute point because its operation truly is quite silent already -- the fan is noticable, but only if you're listening for it or expecting utter silence.

I have the usual specs, with the only notable differences from more conservative builds being the 2.8 GHz processor and 4 GB RAM (tho a lot of people bought this too). It screams in 3DMark06 -- it achieves a score of 9505 when the sidebar is disabled. Not bad at all

Intel Turbo Memory 2.0 worked for me out of the box. The Dashboard is simple, intuitive, and effective. Load times are noticeably quicker for applications placed into the Dashboard. Definitely worth the green in my opinion -- an appetizer before an SSD feast next year.

I opted for the no dead pixel policy and my unit came without any dead pixels, as observed by using the Dead Pixel Buddy tool. However, like others have noted, I'm a bit disappointed with the display quality. It looks a little bit grainy and isn't as bright as I'd hoped -- a little brighter than my now-faded 4 year old PowerBook display. It's definitely sufficient and, thankfully, the glossiness of the display is not too distracting when used in a controlled environment (something I was pretty concerned about). WSXGA+ absolutely is the best resolution choice for a 15.4" display in my opinion after using this for a bit.

The keyboard is also quite good. I had a bit of trouble adjusting at first, and it's still not as good as my PowerBook keyboard (again in my opinion) or as a Thinkpad keyboard (but what is). Still, it's very good and mine came without any problems at all. The touchpad and fingerprint reader work just fine too. One qualm was that the right click button for the trackpad depresses less far than the left side, softening the "click" sound to a notable degree. It's also a little bit harder to register a click with this reduced travel in my (very limited) experience. I would mostly be using an external mouse (VX Nano) that I've been using with my Mac, anyway, though, and this might just be an issue with my particular unit.

So why am I thinking about returning this beauty? The HDD heat. I really need this thing to be reliable, and my temps are okay idle with a Zalman 2000 on the highest fan speed (48-50 C), but when I turn it off to simulate being at work without a cooling pad (but still having it elevated), the temperatures creep up to around 55-57 C idle. After gaming (and the Zalman on full blast), the temperatures were more like 65 C. Many users are having the same problem, unfortunately.

I really want to keep this machine but not enough people are convincing me that these temperatures are okay, and they really don't seem that they are. I would really like Paladin or Justin or some other reputable reseller to officially chime in on the HDD heat that we've all been experiencing to get their take on things. I have a three year warranty and don't care if the HDD dies, but I don't want it to do so when I'm working on something important. Stability is very important to me, but so is only managing one machine that I can casually game with from time to time and that delivers this level of performance. SSDs can handle 70+C temperatures, but they aren't mainstream yet.

If I have time this weekend I'll try to throw together a much more professional review for those that are interested. In the meantime though I'm going to be pretty busy mentoring some undergrads in the lab, studying, and the rest of the usual stuff.

In sum -- it's a great machine, and I will recommend it to anyone pending a solution to the HDD heat issue fears being allayed with sound logic and evidence.

Hope this helped anyone teetering on the edge

 

Last I checked, hard drives were not meant to take more than 55C. And at 55C your expected lifetime was cut in half.

I'll have to find the reference.

 

oh great news!
my hdd idles 52C, idles to close to death for my liking..

 

Greg is right about the 55C limit, for monitoring apps like notebook hardware control it will suggest you turn the PC off when exceeded 55C or so.

 

The expected lifetime for a notebook hard drive is what, ten years?

 

I just received my laptop too! Like previously said, this laptop is good in every way except the high HDD temp. I personally think there is a design flaw in the case that holds the HDD, it basicaly closed the HDD in without letting hot airs out, I also think I mentioned this in other post and I jut want to mention it again. I also sent an email to the xoticpc support, they replied to me and looks like they are working on this issue. I am guess there needs to be some sort of case modifications. Perhaps, lose the HDD holder a little to let hot air out into other compartments. I am sure it can be worked out with some testing. Before that I have to endure the heat on my palm, I think the hard drive should come with a longer warranty because it is really the manufacture's fault and not due to miss usage by the customers.

 

The reference Greg is looking for. I know the same info. I don't know the all in one source either. But for what it is worth I have looked at enough HDD specs to know that is correct.

We don't need an all in one source. What HDD is in the notebook? We can look it up and it will be 55C/131F. So yes way to hot. And I would not use 10 years so I will get five as a plan of action. That is not how HDD life works. Cutting the life in half "in theory" is not going to be acceptable. Not to get to into it. But HDD lifetime is measured in failure rates at different time increments. It continues to increase as the time increment increases. Cutting the "lifespan" in half is not making 10 years 5 years which is acceptable for some. The failure rate is double at any and all points in time. 1 week, 1 year, 3 years.

I would like to see the responses OP is looking for also.

 

In the event that a fix is created for this HDD problem, what does this mean for those who have already purchased the units? Will our respective companies have to send us the new parts or would we have to send back our laptops for replacement?

 

We really need a reseller on this. If they can add or increase heatsink? That would be fine with me. Fan mod in BIOS? I don't like.

What are your CPU temps in the same environment? As it is one connected thermal environment? Does the rest suffer the same high heat? If not great, transfer (dissipate) some of the heat over there (modified larger heat sink)?

 

Agreed, so far the sellers haven't said anything and that somewhat worries me..

 

I don't think they need a fan mod to solve this problem, I think something is just wrong with the bios to handle hard drives. I just looked at my old computer, it has harddrive tightly closed up too yet it does not heat up. So, I am guessing something is wrong with the bios of the NP8660 that send extra energy to hard drive which create more heat. It is possible that Clevo can come up with a bios update to solve the problem of give excessive energy to hard drive.

 

Do you even read your post? It makes no sense at all........

 

you can't "give" to much energy to a componant, it takes what it needs. All you can do is alter its behavior to make it more effecient, so i highly doubt a bios update can make the HD heat less (if it's indeed the HD that is over heating)

 

I agree with what you have said. I would assume the HDD works in many other notebooks so that rules out dismisses your final concern/observation I would think? So agreed. The one before yes I think you can in theory "overcharge" but doubt it is happening here. And to be more specific I think we would see that in other notebooks.

I need to know CPU temps!

 

I'm sorry, I've read everything, and find it interesting, but have little to say. There is just one thing bothering me. Meteromike, the word is "moot" not "mute". Sorry, had to say it. lol

 

Well what HDD is in it? It would be nice to know this...

 

I'm quite worried with those temps as well...
So much hope on this laptop and now...
Well, GPU and CPU's temps look great, but the HDD is simply crazy. Unfortunately, none of the representatives of PNB or Xotic have anything to say about it (and they always have so much to say...). It makes me even more afraid of getting this laptop now.
Is hope close to its death? I hope not...

 

I'm going to reiterate what I put in the official lounge post, I have the 320 gig 5400 rpm drive in my 8660 and it idles at 50-51C and I've seen it at 55C once. Heat has been a complete non-issue for me so far.

 

uh oh, the np8660 has problems

*grins*

 

I've been watching the debate over the heat issue for a bit and I'm wondering if the issue of undue heat from the northbridge chipset has been discounted? In particular, in another thread someone posted pictures of the opened underside of an 8660, which showed what looked like a separate heatsink for the chipset.

In the past, there have been problems, particularly at initial release of a system, with Clevo and/or Sager not properly applying thermal paste to the chip-heatsink interface (mostly on GPUs) and, in some instances, failing to remove the protective plastic that appeared to have covered one of those interfaces during shipping (I recall one member describing how he went to redo the thermal paste on his GPU heatsink and found that bit of plastic stuck in between the chip and the heatsink).

Since there seems to be a divergence of experience on the 8660 - some people reporting worrisomely high temps and others reporting no problems at all - I wonder if the source isn't something like a hadly done heatsink on the northbridge chipset. If the northbridge chipset is, in fact, generating too much heat that the heatsink is not dealing with, that could be raising the overall internal temperature to the point where the hard drive cannot efficiently dissipate the heat it generates on its own - heat that it would otherwise be able to properly dissipate in the absence of too much internal heat from other sources.

Has anyone with heat problems attempted to dismantle the heatsink on the northbridge chipset to inspect the thermal paste?

 

stop being the voice of reason, people are trying to panic!

 

Forums do have that effect on people... But regarding this issue, there have been several reports (and not only some isolated cases) of HDDs working at very high temperatures (when all the other components seem to be very efficiently cooled down).
I think Justin or Donald should share with us their views on this subject. There's clearly a problem... what is Clevo going to do about it?

 

Realistically, there is nothing to do about a harddrive heat issue.

Bios updates won't mean a thing; perhaps a firmware revision from the drive manufacturer.

I would not be surprised to learn, in addition to the northbridge issue, that most people with issues are those with higher spinning 7200 rpm drives...more spindle speed=more heat. That's just physics.

Add the enclose space of a laptop, which cannot disapate heat as well, and you have higher temperatures.

I think that Shyster brings up good points--I would probably crack my laptop open and reapply as5 for the northrbridge and see if I see a difference

 

In one word: backup.

I have an external hard drive that was designed by some great engineers: a hard drive inside an aluminium case with no fan. The result? Its really hot. So I don't think the northbridge has something to do with that.

Exept if you need a 100% reliable laptop, I would just keep my backup updated and if it fails, I'll leave it to Sager. Maybe they could solve the SSD problem and send us all some 128GB SSD

 

Well, this just convinced me not to buy one. I just lost a harddrive in my main desktop computer to heat - it operated at about 57c for about two years. It was a catastrophic loss though, and I can't risk that with a laptop. Two years might seem like a long time, but who knows, maybe next time it will fail at one year. 55c is unacceptable for a harddrive operating temperature.

 

Wow... a lot of responses.

I don't have much time to respond; I gotta get to work.

I will just be able to say that my HDD is the 320 GB 5400 RPM model and that on average at idle it seems to be running between 10 and 15 C hotter than the CPU or GPU. I don't remember the exact values for the CPU and GPU, but I do remember noticing they were around 38 deg C for the CPU and 45-48 C for the GPU.

@ gerryf -- another user was reporting almost the exact same temperatures as me with a 160 GB 5400 RPM drive, and I am sure there are other 5400 RPM users that have the same heat issues.

@ livesoft -- If I need a 100% reliable laptop, I'll pray for a miracle. If I want something more reliable, I will go with a Thinkpad.

 

I remember someone here sent an email to Sager and they said the 55-60 was OK for this computer.

 

I believe I remember you saying that; thanks for reminding me of that.

The statement that "55-60 C is OK for this computer" is fallacious. Identical hard drives will not be "ok" at a temperature range in one computer but "running dangerously hot" in another -- there is no validity for them to state that without backing the statement up with enlightening facts. Until something official is stated, I believe these messages are just trying to pacify worried customers. Safe HDD temperature ranges are dictated by the manufacturer, not a company that shoves them into a barebones chassis and claims that the manufacturer's specs are more lax in their case. :rollseyes:

I only have thirty days to return it, but in reality, I would like to get a new computer sooner than that if I can't keep this one. I'm sure that others feel the same. So no more silence on this HDD issue, please.

 

Well, for one, the Seagate Momentus 7200.3 operating temperature is rated up to 60C. Same thing for the WD Scorpio and the Hitachi Travelstar 7k320 is rated up to 55C.

Data sheets: Seagate, Western Digital, Hitachi.

 

Well, I wasn't the one to say that because I didn't receive it yet and I didn't contact Sager.

But do you really believe that Clevo would allow such a big design flaw in their laptop? Imagine all the hard drive they would have to replace. And think about what could cause this. Is it because the case is closed and contains heat? Maybe its the hard drive itself that produce a lot of heat.

Would your prefer so GPU and CPU overheating and some downclocking? All laptops are not perfect. I know this is kind of a big concern but you should be assured that you will get the adequate support if a failure happens. Also, would you prefer getting a Dell XPS with one third the power of this one? You can't get low temperature with powerful components, but the NP8660 is close to that goal

 

What interface are you using SATA or SATA II?

 

Its supposed to be SATA II

Maybe I'm retarded but the temps are listed under "Environmental Specifications" and for the Hitachi drive, it says: Ambient temperature. So technically, 60 would be OK (kinda). Or maybe this means that when the ambiant temperature is 60+, the hard drive can't operate.

Im really not trying to deny the fact that the hard drive runs dangeriously hot, but I just cant believe that this laptop was designed without acknowledging the fact that the HDD is running around 55-60.

 

Oh, but I did give them something else to panic about! How many people are going to start getting that niggling little acidic fear in the pit of their stomach that there's something wrong with how their heatsinks are seated, just because, e.g., their temps are 0.5 deg C higher than someone elses, or their GPU just can't quite top the 3dMark06 score than someone with an entirely different system got?

Well, when that help is not forthcoming one shouldn't just sit around waiting for it, like some latter-day Estragon or Vladimir - although far be it from me to rechristen anyone Godot.

Clevo owners are hardier souls than that, and there's an awful lot of the self-help and DIY spirit around here. Since, as I mentioned, there is evidence that part of the problem might be undue heat from the northbridge chipset, how's about some enterprising souls popping open their systems and inspecting the heatsink on that chipset, at least a basic inspection without dismantling the heatsink itself. And, to forestall the inevitable objection - no, if you do it carefully and correctly (i.e., antistatic wristguard, antistatic workpad, proper screwdrivers and whatnot, and no forcing of components that don't seem to want to come loose), you will not void your warranty by doing so.

EDIT: BTW, here's the thread in which the pix of the internals on the 8660 were posted, along with some discussion suggesting that the northbridge chipset might be at fault for those owners who's systems are running too hot: Inside Np8660.

 

I think it can be either SATA or SATA-II depending on the HD. SATA II uses more power. I'm just wondering if there's a correlation between interface and temp.

 

We have forwarded these concerns to the proper personnel. If there is any information that Clevo/Sager provides, we will be sure to update everyone here on the update.

 

I don't think so, its like if USB 2 generated more heat than USB 1.1 (Im still not sure about this but this doesn't seem plausible )

That's good news to hear that you too are concerned about this (or are you ).

 

I've been looking at the in/under-side of the M860TU again and I noticed that the Chipset sink is actually in a dead spot where there's not much air movement. It looks like there is a grill on the base plate but I want everyone to try something:

Take a mini 40mm fan if you have one, or any case fan, and stick it right under the grill that covers the chipset sink. If temps drop dramatically then we know what the culprit is.

I think that the NB sink is dissipating heat to the surrounding area but either the grills are too small or there's not enough movement so that hot air stays inside the chassis, heating up the ram and HDD.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the actual HDD placement or its immediate surroundings. Most laptop harddrives will be in confined spaces like that.

 

livesoft - We forwarded the concern to the appropriate personnel. My opinion with the use I have had with it, was that the heat was not a huge concern.

 

maybe just sager left plastic all over the parts and my european vendor one will be perfect

 

That would be better than a design flaw

I really hope you are right and I trust you, that's why I didn't cancel my order

 

Not a huge concern for someone selling them maybe, but for those of us buying, it is a big concern.

I sent my np8660 back yesterday, I gave a chance to an unknown bran, and though it was a great machine, with a lot of power, that heat was way to much for me, after an hour of us, i just didn't want to use it anymore, not as much as the temps becoming 60C just for surfing the web, and light programs, but as much as the whole wrist burning feeling.

See when I spend this much money on something, it needs to be as close to perfect as it can be, because I plan on keeping it for years, but after using it a week, if the problems I have with it are ones that I feel will only get worse, than I cant keep it, ya know.

It seems not even a bios fix will lower the temps, unless they drastically reduce the speed from 7200rpm to ? if people with 5400rpm are getting just as high temps as I was, than I think they only option would be to cut an air vent in, and fit it with a fan.

Like Mike said, great machine bad design, once they get it figured out, I'm sure it will be a great buy.

 

Sorry to hear you are not satisfied with your laptop, that's the chance you take for being one of the first buyers of a new laptop,you never really know what you are going to get.New tech. is great when all the bugs are straightened out.Some people can live with the heat but to some people it's not satisfactory or even a good enough reason to live with.
I had the same issue with a ASUS C 90 S I purchased about a year ago it had a Extreme 6800 processor, everything worked really great the screen was fantastic performance was good for my specs but the heat and noise it put out was really bad.
When using my ASUS after a couple of minutes of use my hands would get really sweaty, who the hell wants sweaty palms when using a laptop!
I do still have it and everything works awesome but for these reasons I upgraded to a NP 9262.This still gets a little warm on the touch pad but nowhere near what my ASUS put out.

 

I have noticed this aswell. since the hard drive is not the constant in the heating issue, its not the HDD, or its placement that is causing the heat.

something else in the laptop is the culprit.

 

I quoted my personal opinion based on USE not whatsoever based on a sales perspective.

My USE of the machine favored for little concern regarding heat.... As I mentioned I did notice some heat but not that much. IMHO, stating that it is a bad design is not accurate. Some heat is expected with such a high end notebook in a 15.4" chassis.

 

I have confirmed this myself that the heat actually come from the hard drive, and it seems from posts that many HDDs not just a single type are having heating issues.

 

M860TU owners, please tell me:

Is there a metal plate that screws to the hdd or does it just slot in by itself?

 

There is a small metal plate that screw to the hdd which only covers about one-forth of the HDD. And I noticed that Asus G50V actually have a full cover metal plate compared to the partial metal plate in the NP8660.

 

When you say that the heat was not a huge concern... do you mean that the heat is not bothering you, doesn't feel hot or is not burning your palm, etc? Or do you mean that the heat doesn't negatively affect the hard drive?

 

wow, all these heat problems are forcing me to look elsewhere a bit... I guess it's just a waiting game.

 

What I meant (in my opinion) is that the heat on the right palmrest did not bother me that much.