How much T° in P170 with i7-3920XM ?

Hi !

I want to buy a P170EM with GTX680M, 32Gb RAM, 2 SSD
and a Msata 128Gb for OS and soft, to use for film editing / VFX / 3D.
I hesitate between i7-3920XM and i7-3840QM. A local vendor can sell me the laptop
with the i7-3920XM for just $150 more than the i7-3840QM, so it's not a question of money.

My concern is about the overall heat of the computer...
I will work all day with it, lots of GPU preview, few render with CPU + GPU,
and as you understand I need a really stable workstation (absolutely no gaming), and not an oven !

So my questions are :
- is the P170 have a good processor cooling ?
(My vendor will use also a "High-Density Polysynthetic Silver Thermal 2.7 W/mK",
but I don't know if it will really make a difference...)
- is there a really huge difference in energy consumption and temperature between
those 45W QM vs. 55W XM processors (if I don't overclock the 3920 of course) ?
- and in this case is this worth to take the higher, just for 100mHz more ?

Anothers questions less important, just by curiosity...
How are you overclocking a 3920 ?? Directly in the BIOS ???
Can you just overclock the processor to few mHz, like 2,9gHz -> 3,3gHz ?
Is it more stable than a big overcloking ?
And in this case, is the cooling of the P170 work nice, or you must change it ??

Thanks for your help !

 

i dont know about 3920, but for 3610 in the P150em, the heat is great, i get tem in the high 50s low 60s at load, so i never have worried about it, thus i assume the p170em could only do better.

 

One thing I would suggest is adding good thermal compound to keep the CPU and GPU cooler especially if overclocking. Some websites also offer copper cooling upgrades to the heatsink.

 

not sure if those copper upgrades work, in theory, i see it only delaying the time it takes for the heat in the heat sink to reach a certain plateau, but doesnt decrease that plateau.

Also i recommend repasting it yourself if temeprature is too high. i was able to take around 5C off my CPU's average heat by doing a repaste myself

 

i7-3840QM isn't out yet, It will be released sometime in Q4 of this year, perhaps you mean i7-3820QM.

I own a clevo P150EM with i7-3820QM, it has the same cooling system as the P170EM and its fair enough, you shouldn't be worried about heat, but you can always do the cooling mods presented in this thread.

I did some tests using the throttlestop benchmark tool:
-While doing a 1024M test with Turbo Mode OFF (2.7GHz) I got 348.300 seconds and a max temp of 74ºC
-While doing the same test with Turbo Mode ON (3.5GHz) I got 268.324 seconds and a max temp of 99ºC before CPU would throttle itself to 3.3GHz and get a constant temp of 94ºC

I didn't do the cooling mods yet, but I plan to. Also, I repasted the CPU myself with Gelid GC Extreme, but I think I did a bad job , I'm going to try again...

Thanks to the Intel HM77 Chipset you can change the CPU multiplier very easily without messing with the BIOS and/or Hardware, Just by using a single software called Intel Extreme Tuning Utility (Intel XTU). Sadly, Clevo locked that feature in my P150EM :'(, but your future P170EM should have no problem.

Yes, you can do that with the XTU software and temps should get better, thus removing the need of any cooling mod, you can even keep with the stock paste.

Energy consumption diference is 55W - 45W = 10W, it is not a big difference and you can always underclock the CPU to get better battery life.

I think i7-3920XM is worthless unless you're a serious enthusiast who is going to do hardware mods to get fewer temps and thus overclocking better.

With the Intel XTU software you can squeeze 400 more MHz of an i7-3720QM and i7-3820QM, they can reach 4.0GHz and 4.1GHz respectively

If had a Clevo P170EM I would go for i7-3720QM since (in my opinion) its a better deal, I mean, its cheaper and by overclocking you can surpass the 3920XM turbo boost, and why would you need more if you can see that my 3820QM will reach 99ºC without any cooling mods and throttle itself to 3.3GHz after 1 minute of full load at max turbo boost.

 

Yes, I was surprised too about the 3840QM, but the vendor already sell it ( http://www.pcw.fr/shop/pack-clevo-p150em-p4g.html ), and he is famous and serious in my country, so.... I trust him... but I think you're right and I'll have to wait before get one !

The "problem" with a 3820 is I will use special movie files, and the "official" Clevo laptop for working with those 4K files used a 3920XM / 32Gb / SSD.
( Test video editing on notebook for Red Raw files R3D on Mac i7 versus PC - YouTube )
That's why I asked your advice, about the real difference between QM and XM processors, because I need a useable laptop, but not a huge workstation with only 5 minutes battery, and hot like a heating plate ! ; )
Of course I don't think I will loose the ability to work on CS6 Premiere in realtime just because I have 200mHz less... but, who knows !!
And I don't want to take this risk neither....

To be honest, when I was younger, I used to disassemble (and kill !!) all my pentium computer, but now, if possible I prefer don't touch anything on this laptop... and if I understand well the 3920XM will need to have cooling mod, even without overclocking ? Did you know ow many degrees more than a 3820 ?
I have to be sure not to do something stupid, and keep a stable workstation.
I really hate blue screen when I'm working......... and in the cinema industry, my clients never forgets this kind of things....
and in few days of words of mouth all clients of my clients will neveeeer forget either !! ; )

So... if I understand well everything, the better is to get a 3840QM 2,8gHz (when available)
which will always be "colder" and need less energy than a 55W 3920XM
(which anyway will need a better cooling than the stock P170, right ?).
And if I was wrong, and really need those few 100mHz more, I'll always can do a little overclocking and push it to 4gHz in turbo boost without having cooling problem and stay around 100°c.

And finally in this case, no mods, no problem... and a laptop which can reach the power of a 3920XM
and still keep a better battery lenght (at least 1 hour I hope !), and not a so higher temperature than a XM processor... right ?

But..... just to understand, that's mean at full turbo boost, a i7 QM draw less than 45W ?
If not, how can it be overclocked, with the need of more energy (and cause higher temp), if it's already at 45W ??

 

u should ask ur vendor if those 3840qm cpus hes selling are oem or es (engineering sample) versions! problem with es and qs (quality sample) models is that they usually run hotter and with less performance than their oem pendants!

at full turbo, an i7 draws up to 55-60W. 45W is the long term turbo boost limit at which its specified to run indefinitely,whereas the short turbo limit lasts for like 30-60 s.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

3920XM due to its higher TDP is likely to consume more power and then dissipate more heat than 3840QM - in addition, the latter can be overclocked with XTU the same way as the 3920XM but you will be limited to add +400hz accross all the cores - still a significant boost.

By doing that however, you'll have to raise your nominal TDP (long duration boost) and possibly peak TDP (short duration boost) to the values of the 3920XM since it always requires more power to run higher clocks. Heat wise, you will in the end get the same temps if you run a 3840qm overclocked or a 3920xm overclocked as their TDPs will be similar. If you don't raise the 3840qm's TDP once overclocked, you will notice that the CPU is throttling, meaning that it doesn't get enough power to sustain the higher clocks - if you leave it at stock yet, there's no problem!

I'd advise you a 3820/3840qm since both of them can get an extra 400mhz.

 

I have 3720qm and it sits at 3.8Ghz constant in prime, my temps are around 88c after 5 minutes. I dont think going for 3920xm will get you much more speed as you will be thermally limited and your CPU will downclock itself anyway. I would avoid 3840qm from your seller as its probably an ES chip, and those tend to be a lot less efficient. 3820qm should be enough though, you will be able to hold a constant 3.9Ghz on all 4 cores with an XTU overclock.

 

Thanks for your reply !

I read on Mythlogic post ( http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/668724-p170em-3720qm-xtu-oc-3.html ) that the original Clevo BIOS won't allow OC for QM or XM, to avoid cooling problem... so, to be able to use XTU, I need to flash the BIOS, right ?

 

Yes, you'll need to reflash it with a Clevo Bios to be able to overclock the CPU.

 

Where I can found this kind of "hacked" BIOS ?
Not on Clevo support website I think.... ; )
(I know I have to do that at my own risk, but does it void waranty ?)

 

what on earth do you do that you need to overclock a 3920xm?

 

You mean why I want to OC a 3920XM ? (english is not my primarly langage)
Well, I try to have a better overall view of the OC process...
because I need to edit and render huge video files, and if my main concern is about having a stable and cold system,
I'd like to know also how much I can push the CPU, but in a reasonable way, and whitout doing any mod.

For now, the lesson I learned in reading the forum, and from all your helpfull post is :
- the Clevo BIOS will need a "hack" to allow XTU overclocking for 3820, except for 3920 wich can be OC with the original Clevo BIOS.
- the P170EM cooling is good enough for using 3820 and 3920 at normal rates,
and it will work with a 3820 and 3920 overclocked to 400mHz...
but it's not garanteed with a higher overclocking of the 3920.
- there's no real advantage to use a 3820 at 400mHz OC because it will use the same TDP and be as hot as a 3920 at the same rate.

So as everyone told me, the more logical way is to take a 3820 (or a 3840) if I don't OC it, or if I just OC to 400mHz.
But if I overclock a 3820, it will be the same as a 3920... so it's not more logical to take a CPU designed to be already more powerfull ??

But there is still a little question I don't find the answer... RogerCD told his CPU 3820 is at 94° when working in turbo mode,
but what is the 3920 T° in turbo mode without OC ? And with OC ?
I just try to understand how much degrees more a 3920 is over a 3820, in IDLE and in full load.

 

i got no idea about OCing CPU, i find the 3610QM is way more than i ever need. my primary concern is more on the OCing part for GPU

 

I will use a GTX680M 4Gb for Premiere CS6, so I don't think I will need to OC it... ; )
But, I need to encode 4K video files and I never tried to do it with a laptop,
that's why I try to have maximum informations about CPU possibilities, with or without OC.

 

Have you checked that your applications don't do better with the older fermi architecture GPU (GTX675M) than the newer kepler chips (GTX680M) as they have weaknesses with FP64 processing. It wil depend on which apps you are using.

 

The graphic card was the second hardest choice to do on this laptop, and in my life !! ; )

Finally, after long searching and discussion, a video expert confirm me that the Fermi card was better than Kepler,
but with the update 6.0.2 of Premiere CS6, the GTX680M became the better choice for working (and for After Effects raytrace engine also).

But what do you mean about this scary "weaknesses with FP64 processing" ?
Because with your 6500 posts, it seems you are an expert too....

I will use this laptop only with CS6 Premiere / After Effects / Speedgrade / Photoshop, Blackmagic Resolve,
The Foundry Nuke, and 3D soft (Maya or 3DS Max or Lightwave 3D or Houdini, don't know yet)....
but no web and no gaming..... boring life !! ; )

 

It is just a matter of money, for less money, you can get the i7-3820QM or i7-3840QM and overclock'em with Intel XTU to get 400 more MHz and easily surpass a non overclocked i7-3920XM.
Heat and power consumption should be equivalent to the i7-3920XM running at the same clocks.

The only main difference would be the Bus/Core Ratio, Intel extreme processors have more Bus/Core Ratio as shown in this comparison, I dont know how the difference will impact the performance of rendering videos, maybe someone with more knowledge can explain.

Just for your knowledge, max advertised Intel Turbo Boost only applies to a single core, putting load on more cores will step down 100 MHz for every working core, for example:
Putting load in my 820QM will get to work at:
- 3.7 GHz if running only in 1 Core.
- 3.6 GHz if running only in 2 Cores.
- 3.5 GHz if running in 3 or more Cores.

Today I've repasted my i7-3820QM with some Gelid GC Extreme


I made new tests with the ThrottleStop Benchmark Tool and I got significant improvements, here are the results:

- Running an 8 thread 1024M test with Turbo Mode ON (3.5 GHz) gets a maximum temperature of 89ºC and a minimum of 81ºC . Power consumption doesn't get past 45W as you can see in the screenshot:


- Running an 8 thread 1024M test with Turbo Mode OFF (2.7 GHz) gets a maximum temperature of 64ºC and a minimum of 58ºC. Power consumption doesn't get past 26W as you can see in the screenshot:


- Running at IDLE, it depends on what you have Installed, my processor wont use more than 2 GHz and consume more than 6W, according to ThrottleStop data.

With those new results you can clearly see that previouly I've made a bad repaste job, now I get better temps, so ignore my previous post results.

 

Ok......... so........ let's think mathematicaly :
if my problem is not the money, but the stability, the comsumption and the T° of this laptop,
and if the P170EM has good enough stock cooling for 3920XM (and good paste),
and if Clevo give me the good BIOS for using XTU in Win7 with P170EM,
so, I can get a HUUUGE CPU to overclock when I'm on hotel room, or at office,
and a normal CPU without OC, and even without turbo boost if I need extreme longer lenght battery
(is it possible to downclock under 45W if I need extreme mobility ??) when I'm in travel by example... right ?

(I'm sorry with all my questions, which seems always the same, but the problem is I need extreme powerfull machine to compensate the lack of office workstation, but I also have to think about mobility, temp, file secure, etc... and for me - long time ago - OC a computer means only 2 things.... smile, happiness, for this "exploit" but also unstability, blue screen, and smoke or fire for computer !! Of course, we're not even in the 90', and things have change... so I just try to understand the today limits of this game, between a powerfull-cold-stable-workstation and a wonderfull-incredible-exploding-rocket..... so thanks again all of you for you replys and your patience !)

 

You'll be seeing 90C with the 3920XM on full turbo, probably up to 100C when slightly overclocked, 3740QM is already showing this sign when on full turbo without the XTU partial OC. But this is all under the situation which the program fully utilizes all 8 threads.

 

And how much T° can handle a stock cooling of P170EM ?
(for 1 or 2 intensive hours by example)

 

Sorry your question is a little unusual, the T° you meant is the heat dissipation that this P170EM is capable of delivering or you meant how long can the CPU run under such high heat closing towards 90~100C°?

 

Well..... both if possible !! ; )

How many times a CPU can be used at such T°,
and how much dissipation can do a P170EM.

I guess the dissipation is always the same amount of degrees,
whatever CPU is used.... so I "just" have to substract this number
to the max T° the CPU can absorb, and I will have the optimal time and condition of using...

i.e : if CPU can work at max 90° during long period, and the OC put the CPU at 95°, and the cooling dissipation of the P170 is 10 degrees, the CPU will stay at 85°, and I can OC and work with this CPU for at least 2 hours in full load... right method or not ?


(That said, if someone with a P170EM + GT680M + 3920XM with OC
see this thread and confirm the laptop stays relatively cold, and stable at full load...
no more questions, or calculations, and it's fine for me !! )

 

John you misunderstand the way cooling works, its definitely not CPU Temp - cooling dissipation = final temp; its just CPU mhz * load = CPU temp. With current Ivy bridge CPUs in EM series laptops your temps will be running around 95c pretty quickly when you reach 4Ghz mark, which is not something you want to do. I think with 3920XM you can reach a stable 4Ghz on all 4 cores under 100% load, but going higher will send your temps over 99c mark. So you have to consider whether its worth spending a lot of money for only 0.1Ghz improvement, when clevo's thermal system will not be able to fully utilize 3920xm to its full potential.
Also, with P170EM you do not need to hack the bios as it already supports XTU, this is for p150em only.

 

The 90C° I meant is a 3920XM at stock clock with full Turbo inside a P170EM. And it doesn't work like that, once the heat dissipation and the heat generation reach a balance, the temperature will stop increasing, if the balance is broken the temperature will continue to increase until it reaches the new balance point. And the ambient temperature/Fan profile/any possible obstacles(dust/pet fur/dead insects/vent facing a wall) will also greatly affect the condition of its heat dissipation.

Max temperature stated by Intel for the i7 3rd gen is 105C° but usually you'd want to keep it under 90C° to make sure the components near the CPU don't get damaged due to heat.

Also I don't think anyone could tell you how many times you can use the CPU at any temperature you could think of, unless it's like 350C°, then I'd say one time .

 

350°... hmmmm..... the first laptop with built-in barbecue !!

Thanks for the explanation ArticJoe and Hackness... I fully understand.

So, back to the beginning...
in a P170EM, unless if I change the cooling for a better one,
I can't fully OC the 3920XM and stay under 90/95°...
(even if 4gHz on 4 core, is still better than 3,6gHz !)
and if I can't fully OC a 3920XM, well, I don't need a 3920XM !!
On the other hand, if I can't really OC a CPU du to the original P170 cooling,
so I better take a "normal" and lower TDP CPU at nearly
the same frequencie, and wait for a 2,8gHz 3840QM....
which I can sometimes, if needed, do a little OC for 400mHz (with XTU) to go near
3,8gHz on 4 core, and still stay under the temp limit of the original P170 cooling.

Hmmmmm........ right ?

Last thing... if I chose to change the cooling system of the P170,
for a better one, to use with a 3920XM fully OC,
do you have an idea of the price, and the complexity of the work,
or is it less complicated than I think ?
(I can do a lots of things if I have a good plan...
I build myself all my Ikea shelves !!)

 

you cant change the cooling system in p170em, or at least not easily. If I was you I would get a 3820qm, XTU overclock it to 65w tdp and add 400Mhz. This will give you a constant 3.9Ghz with all 4 cores on max, 4ghz with 2 cores and 4.1Ghz with 1 core. Going for 3840qm will give you maybe a 2% more performance, or maybe nothing at all because your temps will be the limiting factor anyway.
Another thing I would advise is getting some good thermal compound and applying it yourself - factory application of thermal compound almost always sucks.

 

And the cooling can stand with a 65W OC ??
And be stable enough for intensive work ?!
(lake of stability is my black sheep !!!)
But, at the end, my CPU will have a short lifetime, no ?
Can it stand at least 3years with everyday working ?
My vendor will use paste with "High-Density Polysynthetic Silver Thermal 2.7 W/mK, Conform to RoHS norms", is it enough for this kind of OC ?

I believe you... of course, I have no other choice, but I decided to believe you !

But it's crazy, because if I understand well, that's mean that overcloking a lower frequencie CPU,
give less T° than use a higher frequencie CPU at same rates and same TDP... why ?!
A 45W 3820 OC at 3,6GHz on 4 cores will be colder than a 45W 3840 (and a 55W 3920 !) at same rates ??!

I thought, logically, if intel sell higher CPU, the inside "cooling" system
of this CPU will be of course hot at high frequencie, but lesser
than a lower frequencie CPU push at his maximum limit !!

Or I'm totally wrong, and say lots of bulls, and in fact you just
suggest me to buy a "cheap" 3820 and OC it to 400MHz, instead of buying
an expensive 3840 and just be able to OC it to 100MHz
because of max T° allowed inside of the P170EM....
the second way seems more logical when I'm writing it....

 

So far only Alienware system has the raw cooling power to handle the 3740QM/3840QM+ XTU or 3920XM class heat generation. And 2.7 W/mK is a little low, better get pastes with at least 8.5 W/mK (Gelid Extreme/MX-4). Prolimatech PK-3 can deliver 11.2 W/mK.

Some people might suggest IC Diamond 7 (4.5 W/mK), but only use it if the contact between the die and the heatsink is poor, otherwise you'll find other paste doing a much better job than the IC Diamond 7.

 

yes, my 3720qm is set at 60w TDP and my temps are very good.

from my experience you always get better temps after repasting yourself. factory paste jobs are always worse in terms of temps, even if they use ICD7 compound.

nope, you misunderstood. as long as CPUs are OEM and not ES they will usually have nearly the same temps at the same frequencies: - 3820qm at 3.9Ghz will give you more or less the same temps as 3920xm @3.9Ghz. 45w or 55w TDP figures are the built in limits, but they dont mean much because you can increase them with XTU overclock anyway.

cooling wise OEM chips are very similar, - if you buy an ES CPU it will run a lot hotter (3720qm OEM vs 3720qm ES = over 10c difference at max load. ES also downlcocked to lower frequencies, whilst OEM chip stayed at max.

 

OK !!!!! OK OK OK OK !!!!!! I'm f$ù'!cking upset... because I just spoke to
my vendor and...... he told me ANY OC will void the waranty...... AAAAAAAAH !!!!

So...... thanks everybody for your help..... sorry for this lost of time....
but thanks again, it was great, and really instructive for me !!!
There's only 2 Clevo vendors in my country, and this one was the only one
with the special options I needed... so, or I chose him, or I take an Alienware
(great, but, lake of bluray burner, lake of 2x512 SSD + Msata, only GTX680 with 2Gb)
Or I try to import from another country an OC Clevo, like an Origin EON... is there anothers vendors ?

Or I resign myself, and I chose a "regular" Clevo,
with a 3820 (450€) / 3840 (675€) / 3920 (810€).
By the way, all their CPU are QS... that's why they have already the 3840....
it's good or bad ??

Well.... thanks again to everybody who helped me !!
And, I'll put your name on end credits of all my next movies...

 

Your vendor will never know if you OC via XTU. Also the warranty is with clevo / sager, not with your vendor - if something breaks they will ship your laptop out to them for repairs, and as far as I know clevo have not said anything about warranty being void... otherwise why would they enable XTU functionality?

 

QS is ES, so I would not buy anything from them. They are basically selling you a CPU they've bought for less than half of what you are paying for it. Its not legal either, as engineering sample CPUs are not meant for re-sale.

 

Yes, but he told me clearly that in case of problem, they make research
to see if the laptop was in XTU or not... no one can see that in BIOS ??

And are you sure everything is send to Clevo ?
Because, if Clevo is the manufacter, and my vendor is the buyer,
so I'm under the waranty of my vendors, not of his supplier...
like a Eurocom or Sager..... well, I don't know...

Great....... QS is crap......... this is my day !!
Where is the beer ?????

Ok... so my last options to have a good laptop will be... what ?
Alienware.... Origin (don't know well, but see one good review)... what else ?

 

If you are in EU, try PWNPCS, ask them if they will ship from UK. They had the best prices at the time of me buying my machine.

 

No, I'm sorry I can't........ I'm french, and we all hate those rostbeef !! :joke:
Thanks, I'll take a look now...

edit : their prices are 20% higher than PCW, but if they sell OEM, and allow OC,
it's of course a good deal.... better than those french b@&stards !! :joke... or not:

 

You could just look at this http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/652403-clevo-resellers-european-union-v1.html for more EU resellers.
The other options you want like blueray or an ssd can be bought separately and would be cheaper.