Interest Check for a Possible Petition

I've noticed a few petition threads, but I would like to step in before everything becomes a petition matter..

In order for us to communicate with the Clevo/Sager HQ/CS, we need to be united and be specific about what they absolutely need to address and what they "should" address - hence the reason for creating this thread.

Please note that this thread will be a bit heavily moderated, I want to gather some ideas and issues that require immediate concern.

Follow the form to report which problems customers are experiencing, and the level of concern.

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(FORM EXAMPLE)

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality (capability of the 7970m hampered)

Not Required, but Ideally
* Fan tables (unreasonably high idle fan RPM)
* Voltage tweak settings for GPU
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS

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* Please note that I do not want this to be a discussion thread, but a thread where people can chime in all together to step towards an official, effective petition towards making a better Clevo.

 

Requires Immediate Attention:
P170HM3: Screen not working in 3D mode with GTX675M / GTX680M / K5000M etc. (MXM code missing)

Not Required, but Ideally:
Some models lack FN+1 FULL FAN MODE IN ECs (W110ER...)
DPTF support (Configurable TDP) / required module has been removed by Clevo
XTU support for P15xEM

 

Not Required, But Ideally:
- Fn+1 full fan speed functionality for EM models.. (seen some people claim they have it and others say they don't)
- Agree with the XTU support for P15xEM (I'm sure HM users would enjoy it as well actually)
- Fan Tables Adjusted

 

I am about to post a new thread addressing in detail at least 3 physical design problems in their cooling system installations in the 150 and 170 models that many people are having trouble with, causing unnecessary 20-30C heat gains. If you're interested I'd love to be stickied when I get it up so people can address their 95C-100C+ GPUs running Kombustor (and not void the warranty hopefully) The issues are randomly spread over different threads and I am going to consolidate them and offer an original solution as well to a more serious problem that won't void your warranty if you do it right.

 

I will second this one :

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality (capability of the 7970m hampered)

Specifically the GPU utilisation (as reported by MSI Afterburner) is too low for some games.

In some games I see GPU utilisation at around 60% and much lower frame rates than should be expected from this card.
this applies to :

Crysis (FPS jumps between 20 - 60)
Arma 2 (FPS stays around 35, but this is too low for the 7970m)
Diablo 3 (actually it doesn't affect gameplay here because I still see > 60FPS all the time)

In contrast, Crysis Warhead has nearly 100% utilisation and performs perfectly.

System info : P150em with 7970m and i7-3610QM, Windows 7 x64

 

I will third this, its painful to watch my current laptop being outperformed by one I sold to buy this, this issue requires immediate attention. Clevo / Sager need to report this issue to AMD for it to be taken seriously.

Now ideally / optional:

XTU support for 150EM would be nice too, because they did initially say that 150EM will support CPU overclocking features.

 

i will forth this. this issue must be addressed immediately. this makes me so frustrating and discourages me playing games.

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality (capability of the 7970m hampered)

but how can this be solved other than a driver update?

 

I second all OP has posted and add my own

Requires Immediate Attention
1. Some sort of notification of which GPU is running in the System Tray or a small icon that sits in the top right corner or left corner (like FRAPS) while gaming that can be enabled like in the Nvidia Optimus drivers with the option to:

"Display GPU Activity Icon in Notification Area"

So many issues seem to be because people don't know that the game they are playing is only using the Intel 4000 because they haven't configured it for the 7970M in Switchable Graphics.

Requires Immediate Attention

2. Ability to manually select which video card is being used. 7970M or Intel 4000.

Not Required, but Ideally
* List of all installed apps in Switchable Graphics similar to the Add/Remove Programs area so that you can easily see at a glance all games and their setting.

*GPU fan control in CCC like in normal AMD/Ati desktop drivers

*More games in the drivers (less need to add games .exes to Switchable Graphics

Thanks Ryan. Hope this gets somewhere.

 

I will add a new section:
Ideally, but highly unlikely:
16:10 LCD screens or higher resolution screens (above 1920x1080).

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality - At the very least ability to force always use discreet or integrated.

Not Required, but Ideally
* Custom RAM settings in Bios
* Voltage tweak settings for GPU
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS

 

+1 to all OP items

Would Like To See
Fan speed adjustments or ability to set fan profiles
Access to hardware temperature monitoring information
Ability to access and change FSB speeds and/or CPU multipliers (if chip unlocked, to take full advantage of the XM chips)
Ability to access and change CPU, GPU, memory voltages up/down
Ability to access and flash vBIOS
A promise that BIOS support will continue past 1 year (so no HM redux with the EM line)

(appologies if some of these have already been mentioned)

These are enthusiast-class laptops, please give us BIOS functionality that treats them like the true powerhouses that they are. Thanks!

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality - At the very least ability to force always use discreet or integrated.

This ^^^

Not Required, but Ideally
A BIOS with more options than change boot device >_<

 

Not Required, but Ideally (if Clevo want me as a returning customer)
* Fan tables (unreasonably high idle fan RPM)
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS
* At least a respectable integrated audio solution with standard earphone driving capabilities

In the future, I expect to be able to tell my laptop: "Don't worry, you have sufficient external cooling to maintain turbo boost for X second. There no need to EVER turn-on the internal fans until you sense core temperatures exceeding 80-90°C or catastrophic failure IS imminent!". These numbers are symbolic examples, and I expect to be able to specify them at will (within hotkey for example) and be able to change these parameters dynamically without reboot. I also expect to be able to hard-code them in my BIOS setup as I see fit.

My recommendations:

Clevo and system builders should consider offering an option for "enthusiasts" to waive their warranties in exchange for advanced control over the system they paid top dollars for. (assuming warranty factors are a gating issue for allowing unlocked features)

Implement a high-temperature range failsafe in EC but ultimately publish the fan temperature tables for typical low-medium processing ranges according to standard practice (ACPI) so users can change values at will (why not in hotkey?). If communication between OS and EC fails, or temperatures reach a critical threshold, then thermal policy fallsback to EC failsafe. If Clevo finds that this is not easy to implement, then maybe the choice of Embedded Controller or developer is inappropriate for this platform.

Perhaps consider mass air flow sensors in future designs? There would then be no need to blindly and pre-emptively provision TDP budget for turbo boost when sufficient external cooling is provided.

The system should be capable of "learning" the cooling performance of the system with current sensing capabilities. e.g., If spinning up the CPU fan has no impact on the TDP budget buildup, then maybe this means there is external cooling provided and there is no need for internal CPU fan to be engaged until load is sustained and there IS a measurable contribution from the internal fan when it is on...

My overall "opinion" on by these issues:

Spoiler

One should understand that the fan profiles cannot be "fixed". My big issue with Clevo is that it implements the fan profiles as if it can be a universal solution that requires no user intervention. This is a technical impossibility!

The cooling and performance parameter requirements are unique to each individual's hardware setup, usage scenarios and environmental conditions. The laptop does not have the sensing capabilities (as currently designed at least) required to implement adaptive cooling profiles that can be specified to meet the subjective needs of individual users.

The user should be able have access to necessary controls to fine-tune the operational parameters according to their individual use-cases. One can then optimize the system's temperature and performance parameters according to local environmental conditions (and user sensitivities).

The community has performed a decent design review of the cooling solutions in these prototypes and have identified many corners that must be addressed in Clevo's next design iteration for a product line. As-is, it is quite clear that the thermal management control for these platforms is too aggressive in the low range (near idle to moderate load) for both the CPU and GPU. But personally, I hold a particular grudge against the acoustic noise emissions from the fans. A sample of posts form other individuals on this forum share the same concern. Fan noise is a subjective issue and is relative to individual sensitivities. Also, it seems that we "noise sensitive individuals" seem to be a minority who have issues with Clevo's noise profile, so I can understand if Clevo is not inclined to expend the resources necessary to address the root cause.

Besides, the fans seems to fulfill their function perfectly: they prevent RMAs due to overheated parts within the warranty period. From a business point of view one can understand that there is no incentive for Clevo to improve anything here.

BUT: In the least, this "fan noise issue" should be easily remediated with a simple aftermarket solutions: external cooling. However, with the current fan profiles, while the internal fans are rendered redundant from external cooling, the laptop is not aware that it is being cooled externally and the temperature thresholds required to prevent the internal fans from ever turning on for good reasons, are set impractically low. It is understood that critical thermal threshold must be implemented. But if a user wants to run their cores at 75°C at idle, with reduced life expectancy of parts, they ought to do so at their own risk.

"Impractically low threshold" here is again a highly subjective term that is unique to an individual's requirements, and environment.

The "ONLY" solution is to provide means to allow an individual user to manually set the fan temperature tables at will when required, and with no man-in-middle intervention. This is a requirement for a laptop in this class and price-point. At the very least, Clevo should discuss with its system builders, the option for enthusiasts to waive their warranties in exchange for advanced control over the systems they paid top dollars for.

While I don't expect my P170HM to benefit from any solution from Clevo in the future. These are minor issues that are way too easy to fix by a global scale OEM and which can only serve to improve quality of the product. But these issues are SEVERELY irritating to watch being ignored from one design iteration to the next. I hope this free market intelligence channel will promote a better experience for future customers and help OEMs (Clevo and it's competitors) steer their product development efforts in a better direction. But having been fed-up with with Clevo's competitor's offerings in the past, I really hope Clevo will demonstrate it can establish solid grounds for customer loyalty.

Personally, I bought a Clevo platform because it was the only solution on the market with my immediate requirements. I experienced the consequences of a number of shortcomings practically as soon as I first powered-up the unit, it was obvious that these were flaws by design (from my personal point of view and preconceived expectations) and the only solution was to waste my personal time to improve the system (and my environment) to fit my needs (a rather severe hit to my total cost of ownership for this system). While the system now performs to my personal requirements at the moment, I can't recommend this platform to anyone with similar requirements as it does not perform as expected out of the box, and no aftermarket solutions are available to address these shortcomings. I am now standing in an uneasy position as I typically promote the use of products I use to business associates, friends and family.

While my price performance expectations were high for the product out-of-the-box, had I been aware of the build quality of these systems, I would have negotiated for a significantly lower purchase price or considered a used system as hold-over. After long wait and extensive market research on just about every other brands, I converged on Clevo as it seemed apparent (and I was naively sold on the idea) that this was a fully flexible, upgradable, "NO HOLDS BARRED" platform. I assume full accountability for my jump into the Clevo brand, although I think the picture one could gather at the time of purchase when glancing in the community forums was far from what is strikingly apparent today when one enters these forums.

I did buy this system with the intention of maxing-out on upgrades within the first 2 years before retiring the system in ~4 years. I have an P170HM platform and was fully aware that a forthcoming Ivy Bridge upgrade was a long-shot at the time of purchase. I made the jump anyway, considering retiring my current system within 2 years instead. At the moment, I have no interest in upgrading my current system nor purchasing another Clevo until significant design improvements are implemented and proper accommodations are provided to users with advanced performance requirements as is expected of this product line. I hope that in 1-2 years, I will be able to reconsider Clevo as a candidate for my next purchase.

 

Hmm, we need more opinions and claims than this if we are going to act as a team to see what they can do to address the faulty Enduro functionality..

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro functionality
* Keyboard issues - larger keys not registering unless pressed in dead centre of key

Not Required, but Ideally
* Voltage tweak settings for GPU
* XTU/XMP Profile Support in BIOS
* Fan table adjustment in BIOS

Ryan people probably aren't saying anything as it's all been said in 2 pages. Most if not all of the issues have already been mentioned.

 

Thanks for the input iaTa, but I wanted people to express them even if it's already been said, as a petition needs as many participants as possible.

 

Is this a petition then?

 

I'd really like undervolting abilities and custom fan profiles. Also, I'd like to petition for a redisgned bottom cover of the laptop.

The current one adds +12-14C heat because it immensely restricts airflow. Bad design. No gaming laptop should have it. Check my thread and you'll see what I mean:

Clevo P150 and P170 cooling systems neglected by Clevo! (solutions here) Please sticky? - Page 5

 

I second all of the above. If I think of other things I will add them here.

 

Physical changes are too impractical to implement on what has already been sold many times over, but a BIOS revision with the ability to alter GPU voltages/clocks and fan profiles as others have mentioned would be a very good start.

The way Enduro is implemented currently cannot be altered I don't think unless AMD resolve this with drivers, so that'd be for them to do, not Clevo.

 

Requires Immediate Attention
Fix the gpu utllization issues - probably related to enduro technology

I dont care that much for the other stuff . Sure it's not the coldest running machine but i remember my asus g51 wtich gtx 260m runnig at 95-100 C all the time. Sold it to a friend of mine and he still games on it with no problem. But some kind of a sowtware or bios update to the fan profiles to kick in sooner would be nice.
But my main concern is that I bought a gaming machine on whitch I cannot game properlly!!!! It's been 1.5 month now and still no propper driver. I'm patient but for how long. I'm thinking of Rma-ing the machine or changing it for the gtx 680 althought it's expensive

 

Requires Immediate Attention

please fix enduro issues! it is horrid! games run at or below 70% utilization constantly resulting in frame rates far lower than what they should be. This is true for the secret world, the witcher 2, and battlefield 3 multiplayer. I could have saved money and gotten a gtx 675m and gotten equal performance with this enduro issue

 

I second this. There's got to be a way to make this possible

And my own
Ideally, but highly unlikely:
A unlocked BIOS that would be given resellers or maybe cut open to a reasonably limited public beta so it can be tested. The BIOS is without doubt the biggest problem on the Clevo's.

 

I would add to this section:
- slimmer and lighter power adapters

 

other keyboard layouts languages availability

 

The actually already have that. Depends what language you are referring to. In the EU, resellers have many different keyboard layouts.

 

I will let this thread be open for another week or so,

and then I will close it to look it over and tally up what issues are the most critical and how many people hope for it to be fixed or be addressed in some way.

So I will need as many opinions because in the end it will be pure number that matters.

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Enduro Functionality (capability of the 7970m hampered)
* Heat issues in general (fan tables might be a fix for this? bad paste jobs might account for some of it, but a determination of the problem in general at very least)
* keyboard issues - this might just be a batch of individual failures but there are a lot of people on here with unresponsive keys (including myself). If my RMA keyboard fixes the issue then just better QC is prob required

Not Required, but Ideally
* Fan tables (unreasonably high idle fan RPM)
* Voltage tweak settings for GPU
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS

 

No particular order...

Fans:
I REALLY dislike how loud the fans are while idling, and the steps are so big, the noise level change when switching from one to the next and back again is much harder to ignore than a constant white noise. If that "asymmetric fan blade" stuff from apple isn't just marketing BS, that would be nice. (I don't care how loud it gets while gaming. So yes I would love to make my own fan table)

Support:
I bought my machine (sig) around November, and then they declared it EOL like 3 months later. Ridiculous that Sager and and the builders have to deal with that when it should fall on Clevo's shoulders. Granted, my machine is better in many ways than the latest design (chiclet keyboard, max fan shortcut, 120Hz screen, 3D, no switchable graphics headaches, etc), but still. The fact that the 680M doesn't work in 3D on this mobo (according to Prema) is disappointing, but again, an assurance of support would go a long way.

Power Brick:
What the heck, they were this big like 10 years ago, and they haven't gotten smaller? Alienware's have.

 

Could you change the title of the thread then to something like 'Pre-Petition Signup'. Might get a better response that way.

 

New title works.. Gonna stick this in my signature. Hopefully get some more exposure.. After we've got all the opinions, then what? We gonna vote and rank them, or just slap em all on the petition and see what sticks when we submit it to Clevo..?

 

I think we should put all of them on a list at the beginning.
The ones which are urgent should be set into a petition, the rest should be there as a reference for Clevo to know what we don't like about their laptops.
Might help them...

Once an issue is fixed, we take it off the list and congratulate Clevo with our wallets.

 

sounds like a solid plan.. They could do well if they truly listened to their customers. A sort of community out reach program for their future designs..

 

*Not required, but ideally:

-A partially unlocked BIOS which has the ability to enable XMP memory profiles, or even edit the timings/speed manually.
-BIOS options for overclocking and underclocking (but not suicide overclocking/overvolting). This should be available on all 17" enthusiast class models (P170EM, upcoming P570WM) Now, before these are enabled, the user must accept an agreement about potentially murdering their machine. It could even save a file to the OS drive and tell you to print it out and sign it. That way, you totally accept all liability if you blow up your comp and any potential fees you may have to pay because you tinkered with it beyond stock settings.
-FN+1 full blast fan toggle. Call it 'Jet Mode' in the manual just to make the term official.


This is a brilliant idea for a topic.

 

Ditto on all this. Also, lighter / smaller power adapters are also ideal, but not a necessity.

 

Thirded. Fourthed (or whatever the count may be) for an unlocked BIOS which rivals those on the Alien persuasion.

 

There probably will not be another vote, I'll let this thread flow for a week and I'll tally up which items need the most attention.

Careful though, there is a boundary between a reasonable petition and wishful thinking... Think of it in terms of a petition, which must have most of the purchasers wholeheartedly agree on.

But for now, carry on.

 

You'll have my signature for most of this

 

Oh yes please on software ability to switch to use my graphics card, or if on AC power automatically use my video card vs intel... I'd kill for some control, as well as just plain better drivers.... So yes please fix our enduro issue (I'm on 7970 as well)

To be honest I'd also like better speakers... For spending as much as I did for this laptop the speakers are terrible... Or at least some sort of ability to replace/upgrade them somehow, I'd pay for higher quality sound.

 

All this, and in my opnion this is ideally:

* Fan tables (unreasonably high idle fan RPM)
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS

 

*Not required and very highly unlikely

- FN/Windows key swap (i hate it)
- Standard keyboard color on boot
- Silent key
- Turbo key

 

Requires Immediate Attention
* Manual switching between iGPU crud and 7970M to disable iGPU with 3D.

 

Have Alienware's gotten any cooler though? I'd rather have this brick than a smaller but nuclear power supply. Some get uncomfortably hot to where I don't even want them in my house. Really it depends on how much we're willing to spend on a supply with much better materials which would most likely make it cost double or more. BUT, if the Alienware's isn't any hotter under full load, by all means, I +1 this request.

 

I have stolen what I think are good ideas on here and added a few of my own

URGENTLY REQUIRES IMMEDIATE ATTENTION
* Improved AMD HD7970 drivers with better Enduro Functionality
* On-screen notification of which GPU is running
* Manually select which video card is being used. 7970M or Intel 4000 (possibly by keyboard shortcut)
* Unification of Windows and Clevo power/performance settings so that both power settings managers harmonise and reflect each other
* Direct links to driver/software websites for non-Clevo modified drivers

WISH LIST
* Fan tables (unreasonably high idle fan RPM)
* Voltage tweak settings for GPU in Windows OS
* XMP Profile Support in BIOS
* GPU fan control in CCC like in normal AMD/Ati desktop drivers
* More games in the drivers (less need to add games .exes to Switchable Graphics
* Overclock settings in Bios for memmory, CPU, Xtreme i7 processors... etc


FUTURE MACHINE DESIGN/OPTIONS CONSIDERATIONS
* Reconsider sleep button placement
* Softer press keyboard
* Revise #~ and enter key on UK keyboard Tall enter key is UK standard
* Improve cooling ventilation and air flow
* Improved speakers
* 3D screen
* Touch screen display
* Option for larger battery

 

Requires Immediate Attention


- The fan profiles are messed up. The cpu fan doesnt idle down completely silent after it revs up.

- The gpu fan doesnt rev down when you close a game, it keeps going full blast.

No bios or driver updates...

 

I would love to have a P170EM


Requires immediate attention

GPU Cooling flaw

BIOS doesn't support XMP or OC of XM CPUs, too locked down, both 150EM/170EM

Manual dGPU/iGPU switching (completely disable either one) not possible in BIOS

Fan table (software-control or BIOS auto control)

DPTF support (Configurable TDP) / required module has been removed by Clevo (prema's request)

vTweak in GPU core



Not required but ideally

Larger intake vent in bottom cover

All-blower fan (no flower-style fan)

Bigger exaust vent



Required but highly unlikely

2880x1800 Retina @95% gamut + 60 or 120Hz (3D)

 

But not in USA which is where I buy the notebooks because they are much much cheaper. Also stocks are always very limited or even zero and it takes weeks months to recieve the model you want. it's really a pain.
btw +1 suggestion, better pricing policy for EU.

 

Enduro functionality and a more easily tweakable BIOS.

 

My sole comment is regarding the GPU switching indicator.

My MSI X460DX has a feature that lets you know which video card is being used by changing the color of the light inside the power button.

When the LED is blue, you're using the Intel video
When the LED is orange, you're using the dedicated video

Having a hardware indicator allows you to know if you're using the correct display adapter even when you can't see the task bar.