M735T (Sager NP7350) and virtualization?

Update: the VT extensions are now working after the latest BIOS update from Clevo and a cold boot; read on in the thread if you need the download link. Presumably Sager will get the BIOS update sometime in the next month or so.

Hi folks,

After a lot of reading, including quite a bit on these forums, I bought a Sager NP7350 about two weeks ago from PC Torque. I really want to like this laptop; it's the first time I got just about exactly the hardware I wanted, and didn't have to pay for a Windows license besides (I run Ubuntu).

But, I just tried to do KVM virtualization, using the Intel VT extensions built into the Core 2 Duo P9500 in my machine. The extensions are apparently disabled in BIOS. Typically (on every other VT-capable machine I've owned), there is a switch in the BIOS to fix this, but there is nothing in the M735T's BIOS that I can see.

I really want to like this machine, but this is totally unacceptable, and ridiculous, besides; virtualization has been possible on laptops for close to three years now, and this is a new model. Looking around Sager and Clevo's websites, I don't even see a download to restore my current BIOS, let alone an upgrade to fix this.

I'll be calling Sager support on Monday, but I want to know what I can expect when I call them. From what I can see here, Clevo seems to have a very poor track record with BIOS updates, and if I can't expect a fix for this in a reasonable timeframe, then I will have to return the laptop to PC Torque this week before the 30 day trial period runs out. I don't really see any other options.

Thanks for any advice.

 

Welcome to the NBR forums.

Congrats on the new system.

they have BIOS updates for any fixes that need to be resolved when needed.

Clevo, however, looks their BIOS options up pretty well... since they will usually enable options (that are not seen) by default.

Contacting Sager will be the best bet to confirm the question about virtualization.

 

Interesting, thank you. I see after reading a bit more that Clevo generally does not release BIOS updates publicly, so maybe there is hope.

I emailed [email protected] yesterday. Is this a decent way of getting in contact with them, or would I do better just to call their 1-800 number? I'm sure they're busy right now, what with the holidays.

 

Hi drinian!

I have a Clevo M730T, it is the same as the M735T except for the LED screen. I too am trying to like this machine... but it has some serious flaws.
What is your impression of the notebook so far, namely: Keyboard quality, Fan noise and Battery duration?

I use VMware and MS Virtual PC for testing networking software and would like to be able to use intel's VT.

But... more annoying than that is the fan noise! It seems to have no discernable algorithm to control the fan speed!
I made a post about this about 2 months ago, but got no answers...
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=4101143&postcount=6

Btw, Clevo's BIOS are available here:
http://www.clevo.fr/CLEVO-M72T-M730T/index.htm

I sent an email to all the main Clevo HQs worldwide about the fan issue. Got 1 response from Taiwan telling me that they don't provide tech support to end users and I should contact my Vendor... which doesn't really help, since my vendor is a small European company that just buys the Clevo barebones and doesn't even rebrand them, much less produce custom BIOS

Please let me know if Sager is more willing to solve these problems, as I could probably use their BIOS version on my computer.

Thanks

 

Good to know I'm not the only one. Sager got back to me same-day (good on them!) and said that they are contacting Clevo about the problem. Hopefully there will be an answer of some sort soon.

I actually found that BIOS page earlier today and realized that they were just displaying Clevo's own page within an i-frame. So far as I can tell, this is supposed to be password-protected for vendors, but isn't, through accident or choice:

http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/e-services/esupport/MarketDLOut.asp?model=M723T&go=GO&type=BIOS

(Other folks can probably replace the model number to find their own BIOS).

To avoid the "Too many users" error when downloading, use an FTP client and login with user "ftp", any fake email address will do for a password. The user restriction apparently only applies to the "anonymous" username. Really slipshod IT at Clevo.

I have not tried any of these BIOS images, am waiting for the official reply. However, Clevo's most recent version is 1.01.18, and I'm running Sager 1.00.18S LS1. I'm guessing that the "S" is for "Sager," and that these are the same. However the release date is about a month earlier, so who knows.

About the fan, here's my mini-review, I would like to make a full one later if I keep the machine:
-- LED backlight: great
-- Build quality: fantastic
-- Fan: Really loud when it's on... I just try to avoid pegging the processor, and stay away from "quiet mode," which just runs the fan on low all of the time. I have a solid-state disk, so the machine is dead silent otherwise. I think the speed is definitely connected to processor use (causing more heat).
-- Keyboard: Problems hitting spacebar with right thumb, and some very commonly-used keys are far too small. "/" is pretty crucial on Unix. But I've gotten used to it pretty quickly.
-- Video: My other laptop has DVI out, and the difference between DVI and VGA when hooked up to my 28" LCD is striking. I can't understand why there isn't a HDMI or DisplayPort output on this computer. But this is livable, and at least with VGA I know I can hook into almost anything.

Overall, I think it's a very good deal for money... I'm just a little concerned about that fan.

 

Hi!

I agree with your mini-review. I have the same opinion about the build quality and the keyboard lower edge is too steep. The VGA connector doesn't really bother me using a 22" @1680x1050. Battery is also quite lame with it's 4 cells, giving 1 hour and 15 min of regular use (medium brightness, external 22", Visual Studio, Web Browser, 1 PDF and Winamp).

I would just like to dissect the following statement:

Yes, I also think the "quiet mode" is useless, for the same reason you pointed out.
And yes, the fan Speed goes to 100% if the CPU usage is 100%.
But... the real problem is that the fan kicks in even when the CPU is idle and the CPU temperatures are around 25ºC(77ºF)! The CPU cooler does actually make a good job.
The real source of the problem might be that the chipset cooler is a simple thin sheet of copper:
http://s2.imgimg.de/uploads/Innenvoll98ce7495jpg.jpg
The chipset temperature is always higher than CPU by more than 10º! I've seen it reach 55ºC(131ºF) while the CPU was 30ºC(86ºF)!
You can check it yourself using a simple temperature monitoring software, like HWMonitor:
http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php

Other than these problems it definitely has an unbeatable price/specs ratio.

 

Silent Bob, I need to get in contact with you. Sager sent me what they say is a fix, but it's a Windows-only application binary. I'm not about to reformat my computer to try it, so maybe you could and let me know how it works? Thanks.

 

Actually, Silent Bob, you probably shouldn't bother. I ran the executable on my brother's Lenovo, which has a similar Core 2 Duo. As it turns out, they sent me the Intel Processor Identification Utility, which can't fix the problem... all that it can do is identify processors.

Needless to say, I am getting angry. I have just sent the following email to Sager support, which sums up the situation pretty well:

 

Hi!

Thanks for the information!

It was too fast and to good to be true
I'm not a client of Sager, but I can send them an email similar to yours if you find it appropriate.

Good work!
Please keep us up to date on this situation

 

The saga continues. In response to the rant I posted above, I got this response today.

Well, that's a pretty vague response. I have to attribute some of the trouble to the fact that no-one except me in this communication chain appears to be a native English speaker. We will see what happens.

On further reflection, I may keep the machine and switch from KVM to VirtualBox. It's much less of a hassle than returning it and searching for a comparable notebook from another manufacturer.

 

Hi drinian!

I'm not a native English speaker myself, but If I were working in an English speaking country's tech support, I would at least try to be minimally intelligible in my responses, let alone being grammatically correct.

But Clevo is not the only brand that disables VT in their products. I've found this thread about Sony and a proposed workaround:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=189228

I think it could also be done for Clevo laptops, since they also use a Phoenix BIOS.
If you're feeling like getting your fingers dirty and flipping some bits in your CMOS you can try it out.

I would do it myself, but don't have time to be messing around with it right now.

 

So at this point are we to assume that VT is disabled in the BIOS on Clevo machines, and that changing that with a BIOS update hasn't proven to even be possible? I'm curious as to why they would even feel it necessary to disable it.

That is an end-of-discussion show-stopper for me, as I rely on virtualization for my job. I hope this is not the case.

 

Well, I wouldn't count them out just yet. My contact at Sager tech support has let me know that Clevo says that they did, in fact, enable VT in the BIOS. They've asked me what OS and software I'm using (Ubuntu and KVM) to do some more troubleshooting.

Meanwhile, Clevo has released a new BIOS on their internal website:
http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/e-services/esupport/MarketDLOut.asp?model=M723T&go=GO&type=BIOS

No mention of any related fix; anyone want to try it out?

Silent Bob, that is an interesting thread and a little scary, I think I will wait before attempting to brick my laptop like that.

 

Hi,

I flashed the new BIOS image, but there were no changes

The VT-x bit is still disabled and there is no new option in the BIOS to toggle it's state.

It it BIOS rev. 1.01.21, so they've gone 3 steps from rev. 1.01.18 which was released 2 months ago, which in turn means that there is at least some engineers keeping these things updated. If I could just get in touch with these guys and tell them to activate the VT-x bit... or they could tell me the right bit and I would modify the BIOS myself.

Other than that I can only try flipping random bits and hoping to hit jackpot

I was wrong! See post below!

 

Bah... Nevermind... I just forgot to cold boot

It is now working perfectly( I hope )

There is no option on the BIOS menu itself, but the VT BIT IS ON!

Have fun guys

 

Glad to hear they got it taken care of for you.

 

Silent Bob, thank you for testing out the new BIOS. I have also now upgraded to the latest Clevo BIOS and can confirm that VT is now working. My boot screen no longer says Sager, everything else looks to be in good shape

 

So, last night my laptop decided to stop turning on. It lights up for a couple of seconds, but the BIOS splashscreen never comes up. I was fine for a couple of days, so that shouldn't be related to the BIOS update, but I thought you should know.

 

Disconnect any eSATA or USB storage devices and see if that makes a difference. On my PC I've had to go into the BIOS and turn off legacy USB device support to fix that sort of problem.

 

The new BIOS is working very well!

I'm restructuring my System to make room for Windows 7 BETA, I've got VM both in VMWare and MS Virtual PC with VT-x enabled without any problems at all.

Now, about your problem. The same thing happened to me about a month ago. The solution is quite simply to clear the BIOS. You can do this by temporarilly disconnecting a couple of wires inside the laptop. These wires connect the CMOS battery to the laptop board and the connector acts like a jumper. You'll just need a screwdriver

1- Disconnect AC Adapter and remove battery.
2- Open the CPU/RAM bay.
3- With the laptop open, locate this connector, take it off for a few seconds, try to turn the laptop ON to discharge any capacitors.
4- Reconnect the leads.
5- Close bay
6- Insert battery.
7- Turn it ON.

Here's a picture:



Hope it works!

 

Amazing, I post a problem, and within hours, you help me out, with a picture, no less. I would give you more Rep Power if I could.

My system seems to be booting up fine now, after clearing the CMOS. Thanks again.

 

No problem, happy to help!

It just happens that you had the exact the same problems I had with my system.

Have fun

 

Before this thread dies, I thought I'd piggy-back on the discussion, and document my experiences with Sager, and virtualization as well. I came here searching for information on enabling VT in BIOS for my Sager 7680 (M762TU).

I've been very satisfied with my purchase so far! Sager produces a quality piece of equipment, for a great price. The 7680 has a good, solid feel, looks sharp, and I couldn't mention any negatives until this. Dealing with PC Torque was super-pleasant too. But this is a show stopper for me since I purchased the laptop for work and school (development, and administration). I even upgraded to a processor (Core 2 Duo P8400) that supported VT, which increased the order by $140.

I contacted Sager support earlier today through their callback-request web form, and they are quick with responding, which is reassuring. The rep I spoke with was very willing to help, but admitted he wasn't certain that the BIOS update he could provide would enable the VT option (he could only provide an older BIOS revision which would remove my "FOR EVALUATION ONLY" message at POST). He asked I email a full description of my request so that it could be passed along to the manufacturer (clevo, I presume).

I will post my experiences, but meantime if anyone has any suggestions I would be very appreciative. Drinian, I would like to know the update went - was it a Windows-only installation (did you have to install Windows just to update)?

I'm also running Ubuntu and KVM, and here is the current POST output:
Phoenix SecureCore(TM) NB
FOR EVALUATION ONLY. NOT FOR RESALE.
Build Time: 11/18/08 14:54:04
Bios Revision: 1.00.14LS1
KBC/EC Firmware Revision: 1.00.09

 

try this version:

Bios 1.01.15/KBC 1.00.13 - I know it syas it's for the M746TU, but that's exactly the same as your laptop, just with a 14" screen, the BIOS's are the same

run step1.bat first, then step2.bat (from dos with reboot in between the 2 steps)

 

Hi Gabbadar,

The BIOS updates that I have seen are distributed as DOS applications. What I did to install it was follow the instructions from this blog http://www.tummy.com/journals/entries/jafo_20080920_234755 to create a FreeDOS LiveCD with the files, and updated from that. I have done this with success on other laptops as well, it should be as reliable as using MS-DOS.

Or, you can try the guide in theriko's signature, I don't have any experience with that method.

Typically, I don't think that Clevo documents when they enable VT in the BIOS changelog. No idea why. BTW, theriko's BIOS is the latest, according to the official site for that model:
http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/e-services/esupport/MarketDLOut.asp?model=M746TU&go=GO&type=BIOS

 

Great, thanks for the FreeDOS instructions, Drinian. I was concerned with flashing the bios using BartPE or some other environment.

I'm going to make the call to hold off until support gives me the blessing on installing an update. The two systems do appear to have identical specs, but I'm a mite nervous about experimenting with BIOS flashing on my shiny new laptop. Thank you though. I may get adventurous though, and play with that sony post that was thrown out there..

 

That is DEFINATELY the right BIOS, so don't worry about that, but if you want to wait for your warranter to ok it, thats fine

 

I don't know if any of you can help, but I recently purchased a M762TU and did the bios update from drinian's post of the link to Clevo's site. I did the 1.0.1.15 bios update first (ran step1.bat, rebooted, step2.bat). When I booted back into my desktop (Vista x64). The FN-F12 does not turn on the bluetooth. It worked in the prior level (1.0.1.14). After that, I ran the 1.0.1.16 update of the bios and still no bluetooth.

Does anyone have any ideas?

gotmonkey

 

Did you check the BIOS to make sure the update didn't disable Bluetooth support?

 

I've been meaning to update this.

On Thursday, January 22, I received a BIOS update from Sager support for the M7680 / M762TU. This was 10 days after my initial request, which I was thrilled with
(much faster than I anticipated)! To be honest though, I really wish Sager support was a little more on-the-ball. Is it too much to ask for a relative turn-around time for this kind of request (from this entire post, it appears to be about 10 days)? It's very nerve-racking to be at the mercy of Sager technical support - I paid nearly $1,000 for this machine, and I need to know if you're going to fix my problem, or string me along for weeks until my return-period expires.

Second, the email I received read "Note. Sager Computer does not take the responsibility if the computer does not work after you updated the system BIOS by your self." This is super-not-cool. I was so nervous I actually did a binary-diff between the ISO provided to me by Sager support and just-released M746TU BIOS update in TheRico/Drinian's post [ http://www.clevo.com.tw/en/e-services/esupport/MarketDLOut.asp?model=M746TU&go=GO&type=BIOS]. A huge portion matched (huge enough to convince me that it must have been identical), so that bolstered my confidence in the update the Sager provided me.

Sorry to be a little ranty / verbose. My conclusion: I'm happy. The VT bit is enabled, and my laptop is happy to virtualize anything with hardware acceleration now. I'd still buy and recommend a Sager, but a little reassurance form support would have made me much happier, and much less nervous.

Gotmonkey, I'm struggling to get my Bluetooth module working now too after the update, but I'm under Ubuntu, and I'm afraid I didn't have it working prior to upgrading to BIOS revision 1.0.1.16, so I can't confirm update-created problems. There weren't any BIOS options made available from the update that I saw - they just hard-coded the VT option to enabled. Can anyone else confirm or deny this problem?

Edit: Nah, BT is working fine for me. After playing with it for a bit I realized I just needed to turn it on.

 

Been gone for a while, I just wanted to comment that Bluetooth with Fn+F12 still works for me with the latest BIOS, with Ubuntu 8.10.

 

Are you guys kidding? Is the battery life really that bad? It says on all the reseller websites that it should be 210 minutes not one hour with 4 cell. If it's only one hour why the hell does the computer even exist. Its not high performance.

 

Can anyone comment on this?
Thank you.

 

Please specify under what circumstances are you getting that battery life.

1. How many times has the battery been charged/ discharged since you bought it
2. Are you using the screen on full brightness?
3. What are you doing (gaming, watching movies etc)
4. Is wireless enabled?