My 5-month Sager NP9170 review (7970M) *Warning: Wall of Text*

Nope, Neo, it has nothing to do with defending an honor, it's the annoying innuendos, almost taunts, which you keep repeating over and over.

Take your favorite sports' team, your current car, any topic, really, even politics - now imagine someone keeps nitpicking the thing you side with over and over compared to something else, to which you clearly disagree with. And that same person keeps hinting the same thing over and over. Wouldn't that tick you off, even a little? That's all there is to it, really.

Just look at failwheeldrive, here: even though that wasn't the case, he thought I might be trashing AW by providing 'proof' that it has issues, and look at him go. Why should anyone else be any different?

Failwheel, you missed the spot I was trying to make, man. Would love to get me an Alienware. I just disagree with the nitpicking on Clevos' compared to the lack thereof of Alienwares' in Neo's posts.

 

I got that part of your argument

I was mainly responding to your earlier post about AW having bad reseller ratings and lots of reports of hardware failure, and that kept you from ever considering getting one. Again, I'm not trying to bash Clevo or anything... I think they are the best option for a budget of around $1500 and under. Once you start getting into the $2k and $3k range, I think AW is a more attractive option.

 

That didn't make much sense to me. Have you ever looked up the companies that make the parts for Dell, or Asus? Not many companies manufacture every single component in house. Asus, may make motherboards, but they don't make capacitors, resistors, or transistors. It is those components that make the motherboard good or bad. Not the name of the company that is printed on it.

 

You gotta be kidding me right? Read other people's posts before responding (and greatly annoying them). I'm AWARE and this is the 2nd time I mention it, that Clevo doesn't manufacture everything in the shell, I was making the point that it's THEY who choose which components and which quality level to include, I already responded to this, is there no learning curve on this forum? It was a mis-expression on my part and you're the 3rd guy that happily points out that Clevo doesn't manufacture RealTek. I know. Get over it.

 

The fact that your analogy of the computer you own was to your political opinion or sports team you side with is precisely the problem. My review was that for the price difference, for the specs I wanted, for my geographic location, AW is the clear winner even with a 300 USD premium (which is not the case in my case, more like ~170).

Your response is .... what? I'm still not sure if people here think they're actually debating me, because if that's what they're doing their response would start with: "No, I think CLEVO is better than AW for the price for the following reasons". THAT would be a proper response. Everything else has been juvenile geek fanboyism, it's a waste of my time. I don't care about ticking you off, this is a forum where technical issues are discussed and your opinion rises and falls based on merit not whether it ticks you off or not. Now try to think rationally before you persist at posting and persist at missing the point.

Let me tell you what ticks me off. It's the fact that I was once a new buyer who had never heard of Sager/Clevo, and thanks to people like you (that I still see on the forum with the same mindless adherence they have to a brand) I wasn't presented what I think was an accurate image of what Sager/Clevo products are.

Lets get politically incorrect shall we? Around these parts the impression people want to give potential buyers is that AW is just a rip-off brand that over-charges for the name and "cartoony" looks, whereas Sager is the real aficionado brand where you tweak everything, for the same specs and is the real bargain if you want high-end parts. That's the impression people get off from reading the threads here.

Well .... it's Bullsh*t. The reality is that AW over-charges for extras you can get easy (with warranty) from newegg, but is the better computer and is worth the money if you like "premium" finishing and peripherals. Sager cuts corners and has a cheap build and cheap peripherals and overall performs slightly slower. If you can afford an AW you usually go for an AW, if you don't Sager is a fantastic option, but don't strut your stuff, you got the cheap native Taiwanese 2nd rate "vessel" that carries the high end Western-designed components, not the king of the jungle. End of story. Stop arguing.

 

I find it funny that you're writing the entire brand off because of one laptop. One that seemingly has had more issues than any number of users' machines. If I completely wrote ASUS off for the crappy G1s I had, I would never have bought the amazing G73jh I had before I got this 9170. It's like you're an alter-ego of hulawafu, bashing anyone who doesn't share the same mindset as you. Any company you go with will not be perfect, including Alienware, which was the point Amirfoox made.

Edit: Also, please link to us your 5 month review of your Alienware when it gets to that point. I'd love to see how negative it is.

 

Nothing to add.
Buyers only need to decide who they listen to.

 

I can't speak for any other model but my own I've already made that clear, and for that model a number of people agreed, that you and your posse accused of the same accusation, that we're a rarity. It seems that you can't handle a serious review of the brand you worship Srikar.

What's funny is that adult men can't muster a real argument to support their point of view except regurgitated arguments accusing anyone who has less than a perfect experience of either being a 1/1000000 lemon or just a bitter anti-clevo activist. Get a new gig.

 

My "posse." What? There is no clique here. Not my fault you get extremely defensive when people question you.
The brand I worship? Huh? This is the first Sager laptop I have ever owned. And I am by far not saying it is the best brand there is. I know there are issues, but I am not completely blinded by rage(?) to see that it is still a very capable machine.

That post of yours alone is enough for others to write you completely off. This just further proves that you can't make a comment without insulting others. Why should anyone take you seriously? You say you're an adult man? Why aren't you acting like one?

 

Just look at you, going berserk when people dare to disagree with you continuously bashing Clevo in a Clevo forum. Consider trashing Nvidia in their forum and see what happens, for example.

But anyway, hey, look what I found - the ignore list of this nice forum (click me -> Add to Ignore List). Really not worth getting so mad at.

End of this story.

 

@Srikar: I've been around internet forums for enough time to know when someone is trolling instead of discussing to make a point. This guy basically bullied an unsuspecting member earlier in this thread when they too said that although their keyboard was working, it wasn't good and annoying to use. Srikar wouldn't have it and accused that guy too of having a lemon machine and that they should stop whining and just get it replaced. But keep on responding to the crumbs of the argument rather the heart of it, which remains uncontested. The more you respond the more this thread generates discussion and the more people read that there's "some fire" to the smoke. As a matter of fact the thread received more likes today than since I posted it, so I owe you some thanks I suppose. I only wish you were capable of better discussion

Simple question: If the P170EM and the MX-17 were the same price exactly, who would buy the P170EM? Very few people. The price is the paramount factor here, so my review AGAIN is: For some customers, who want certain specs, the price difference isn't so huge and the quality of the AW justifies that price difference. I just thought potential customers should be aware of that instead of thinking that AW is just ripping people off for the same performance and quality as Sager, which isn't true. Where is the disagreement again?

Seems like everything I say just goes over some people's heads because all they see is a guy bashing Clevo and advertising AW on the Sager forum. That's not my intent, but if that's the simple-minded approach people like Srikar and Amir want to take then by all means, just don't expect to be indulged beyond a certain point unless you start providing some interesting input.

 

Talk about delusional. Why don't you quote that post of mine, bullying the user and telling him to replace it. Why don't you also post my quotes of me worshiping the machine while you're at it.

No one is arguing that the chassis of the Sager is better than that of the Alienware. No one is denying that Alienware is a great brand or that Sager is the clear winner between them. You're assuming people are arguing something that they clearly are not and then put arguments into their mouths that they clearly did not say.

 

You're right I mistook you for someone else, I was viewing multiple threads on laptop and phone on the span of 3 hours. Got mixed up, my apologies.

But reading this last post quoted, we're really in agreement I think. Reviewing the thread again showed at least 6 people who shared my gripe about the keyboard for example, even you said your keyboard skips keys, albeit rarely. Where is your issue with my review exactly? That you don't like the way I phrased it?

 

It's a shame clevo does not partner up with someone like steelseries and get a solid keyboard, even as an upgrade option if they wanted to keep the list price as low as possible.

 

That's a dream at this point. MSI must have some binding contract with steelseries or something, because the standalone units from Steelseries that fit the Clevos conveniently dried out completely from the market, and very fast, whereas MSI laptops kept on shipping with them. I've been looking for weeks now and there's only one seller on eBay that popped up last month with 8 of them, 2 of which have been sold for 175 USD plus shipping (from Canada). Even if I were to buy it, it seems that there's no way to get the FN keys working properly.

 

Yes, rarely. As in maybe one skipped key per day. It's to the point where I'm not sure if it's the actual keyboard at fault or me actually skipping it. Based on your review, your keyboard is/was clearly faulty, same with the power brick. That was a QC issue, not something that happens to every Sager in existence. I don't agree with reviewing something that's clearly broken. Maybe if your review was criticizing the quality control, I might agree, but then again, every company lets lemons slip through from time to time. Other things I do agree on though, such as disc tray location and speaker output. Like I said, I do not worship Sager, but I do know they put out very capable machines for a great price in comparison to other brands with similar specs. You pay more for Alienware for a sturdier chassis and better warranty. You pay more for MSI for... I don't know, I'm not experienced with them, maybe just the name.

 

They do have a binding contract and MSI clamped down HARD on keyboards going out after a certain company massively advertised the swap.

The Fn keys are the same combos as the original keyboard, just not properly shown on the keyboard.

 

Well what would you advise your customers if they wanted an upgrade? Go look for a steelseries on the "grey market"?

 

There is a difference between discretely offering an upgrade to those who ask and advertising it on the main page

 

Haha ... you misunderstood me. Yes I know what you're talking about and I've been to that "certain" company's site many times to check out the funky upgrades they offered (like the utterly useless 5-dollar copper sinks that were on offer for 10x the price), it was a genuine question aimed at Powernotebooks. I suppose I'll ask discretely if you have any spare keyboards

 

Sorry but since MSI did clamp down you can't do it at all as there is no supply.

 

Thanks for a very thorough and honest review!

 

NeoCzar, lets say hypothetically speaking a user (such as myself) has never had to repaste a machine. On a scale of 1-10, how difficult would you rate it and what is the ease of me f'ing something up?

 

It is a really simple process. Basically a few screws and a careful cleaning, then a smooth reapply. You can find a thousand guides out there to do it.

My way is to remove everything, which changes depending on laptop. Then I use coffee filters and 91% isopropyl alcohol. Fold the filter and get a bit of alcohol on it and clean the old stuff off, you can fold the filters to get a sharp edge for doing around corners and such. Once that is done let it set a few minutes to air dry. You can see that there will be nothing visible on the dye itself. This is where things become preference. I spread. I always have, just because it is something I do. I use AS5 and GELID both are wonderful compounds, I switch between them depending on which is closer at the time to be honest. You can do what ever technique works for you. I actually spread paper thin lines pretty well, so I stick with that method.

Once that is done bolt it all back together. After my latest repaste my Girls new 670m won't break 60c on a bed running battlefield.

If you need any help at all we are all here to help with that one. It is a good thing to learn, it can help prolong the life of your product quite a bit.

 

What he said. If you don't have coffee filters like me though, you can also use something like a q-tip as long as it's not those shoddy ones that fall apart the second you touch it. Also, I'll add on some things he left out. First, before touching the die, make sure you're grounded, either by touching grounded metal to discharge any static electricity build up, or by wearing an anti-static wrist strap. Don't want to short anything fiddling around in there. When you put the heat sink back onto the GPU die, make sure to use even pressure and when screwing it down, screw diagonals, not clockwise/counter-clockwise. You don't want the paste to come out uneven. This might be less of a problem if you spread the paste (I don't, I just put a pea-sized drop in the middle of the GPU die), but it's still preferable to do it this way so you ensure it's fully tight.

 

Difficulty = 1/10 (10 being most difficult). Ease of screwing something up is very minimal. Keep in mind that in a cool room witout OCing or heavy load, most CPUs will function (albeit very hot shortening the life of the chip) without any TIM at all, at least for short periods of time.

CPU works > CPU generates heat concentrated in the metal plate covering the dye > Heat dissipates through the metal heatsink, then the fins of the cooler, further aided by a fan (same principle for water cooling, carrying heat away). Air is a bad conductor so it is preferred to use a compound with higher thermal conductivity than air to maximize the contact area between CPU and heatsink, which is not rocket science. Here's an interesting (and funny) comparison between different substances used as thermal grease for CPUs including toothpaste, chocolate, butter, mustard and proper TIMs we all know of. If you read all 6-pages there is a brief description of application method.

Thermal Compound Roundup - February 2012 | Hardware Secrets

In other words, the only real danger is not over-applying/under-applying/mis-applying the thermal paste, but mis-aligning/mis-installing the heatsink after the re-paste, which ideally would just cause your system to hang/switch off once it reaches max safe temp (depends on the CPU/GPU but usually above 100 celsius, not that you wanna see anything close to that temp in any circumstance) but that fail-measure is not perfect and frying your system is possible.

I use cotton buds instead of coffee filters and just make sure no lint or threads are left behind, which isn't very hard. I use Ethyl Alcohol which does the job of cleaning the old TIM. The scotch tape method is fantastic as a final measure to clean the surfaces. I use the rice grain method to apply the paste, don't get too caught up in choices between rice grain, line, zigzag, spreading ..etc. Unless you're using too little TIM they'll all work fine and even if some micro air bubbles form it's not that big of a deal and you won't be able to tell anyway. My house is a high-rise flat in a steel/concrete tower so just working on the computer barefoot ensures I'm grounded.

You'll notice minimal temp differences between different greases but it's not linear, some greases need time to "cure", and some only start shining by comparison at higher (70+ celsius) temps but are the same or sometimes worse than cheap TIMs when the computer is idle. Good pastes last longer, tend not to dry up as fast, and are more consistent. Keep in mind that if you're incessant about these things like I am, you'll start reading about carbon, metal ..etc based greases. It's pointless really unless you're pasting for an F-22 Raptor chip or something. Just get one of the good brands you hear about, and don't get anything capacitative or conductive although you'd have to go way out of your way to find those.

IC diamond is quite popular around here but I opted not to get it because it's more viscous than most other pastes so it's more annoying work with, spread, squeeze out and there have been reports of it affecting the contact surface of the heat sink through erosion. I just didn't want to have two more things to worry about so I got the MX-4 which I highly recommend. Hope that answers your question.

 

I chose Antec.com - Product: Formula 7 I found that it works great and there is minimal curing time. You just apply it and it works. When I am gaming I almost never see temps above 70-74c. I think that is great! When I first got the system it hovered around the 78-82c mark. So Antec's formula 7 has been great. Plus it comes in this huge tube so I have plenty for reapplications and friends.

 

I haven't used Nvidia for a while now but I think 70-74c is in the higher range of normal for Kepler. I know people with your card that almost never see 70c. I might be wrong though so don't panic. Did you do the foil mod?

 

Awesome. Thanks for the great feedback. My new Sager came in today. The main thing I was/am nervous about is over applying the paste and having the paste not cooling as much as it should.

 

It's not a big deal. First paste job I did was when I was 16, and knowing what I know now I did a crap job, computer worked fine. Don't overthink it, most people like to make their respective fields sound more complex than they are to elevate their intellectual stature, and the IT industry is no exception. Like I said earlier, even if you apply NO paste at all, provided that the room is cool (~25 celsius) and the laptop's vents/intakes are not blocked, and you're not doing CPU intensive tasks, the computer will run for hours on end just fine.

Run furmark/prime with stock paste, then run it after you apply your paste, then after the foil mod, then come here and tell us your results

 

I appreciate the review NeoCzar. I've been seriously considering a P170EM, but now may switch to something built on MSI (like iBUYPOWER's Valkyrie). Alienware is not an option since they only carry glossy screens which is a deal breaker. I need the screen to be anti-glare and I really prefer matte anyway.

So, if you had to get something with the same specs you have now (including the matte screen), who would you go with? What if you were going to upgrade to the Nvidia 680m?

 

Believe it or not, the 7970M with its Enduro issue is not a major concern of mine, since I was aware of the issue before I bought the machine and considered it work in progress. There's steady progress that could be faster, but I'm ok with the GPU performance post 13.1 drivers and can play my games fluidly, so a 680M is not in the cards for me, the performance difference does not justify the price, so if I'm to upgrade I'd wait for the 780M but in all likelihood I'll just buy a new machine in 2-3 years.

I completely agree about the matte screen, I would personally never go back to glossy, specially living in an area as sunny as the Middle East. To answer your question MSI isn't an option since they don't have an Ivy Bridge + 7970M configuration on sale nor any of the resellers. It seems that if you're intent on matte you're stuck with Clevo or MSI (with the 680M). I parsed the AW forum for a bit but I didn't come across any matte after-sale remedies.

 

That's a fair choice, iBuypower's customer service and warranty notwithstanding. Keep in mind that though the MSI and some Clevo models have anti-glare screens, they have highly reflective display bezels.

You can remove the plexiglass on the Alienware screens, but doing so is tough. An anti-glare coating is also a decent option, but it reduces the quality of the screen.

 

I don't see much of a difference with the 780M, I am more interested in the new chip from AMD to see how it reacts.

The MSI machines are pretty flexible that's why we chose them for our overclocked model and the bezel is not really that distracting since you are looking at the center of the screen

 

That makes sense. Since I need matte and will probably go with a 680m, would you recommend Clevo or MSI?

 

1-year update:

1- AMD drivers still suck. I didn't know how lucky I was to find a stable Intel HD4000 + AMD drivers that were stable (still underutilized with SC2 and WoW, makes my blood boil, this is my flagship junk card). I tried LeeKM's drivers and they did nothing and wasted a day of my life with troubleshooting and ruined that "stable" setup I had.

2- Keyboard is almost never used, I invested in a Logitech wi-fi kit and the laptop sits most day as an HTPC. Yes, a high-end gaming laptop is an HTPC because AMD are idiots and Clevo is a cheap Chinese manufacturer.

I can't wait till I find a buyer, any buyer, so I can run as fast as I can to Alienware and pay a hefty premium for PEACE OF MIND.

 

I always had the feeling that clevo would give me problems if I were to ever buy one

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4

 

I do not have the patience to make a full review so I'll just drop a line here ^^

I agree with some of your issues but I can't agree with some others, the power cord issue is probably the one I'm 100% at your side, I keep having to look at the battery indicator to check if my laptop still has power (unless I'm gaming where I just notice a huge drop in fps), I've develop an habit to constantly recheck the power cord.
I've not noticed any issue with the build quality so far, the lid is not as stiff as my old Asus G1S but otherwise I'm happy with it. The audio annoyed me completely in the first 2 days of buying the laptop and I went directly to a store and bought an Xonar U3 from asus, since it connects to the usb, I use it in the left side therefore it doesn't annoy me, the dvd drive in the right side was a bane I already had in my G1S so I was already used to it. I also end up sticking an USB in the network port xD but it's mostly if I have the laptop in the ground (non normal utilization).
The biggest issue is no doubt the enduro and the HD7970M, The most "demanding" game I play is world of tanks and my card rarelly goes over 50% utilization while I'm playing, this translates to an 20~40 fps, if for any chance I try to lower the graphics settings I'll actually lose fps... It is most annoying because not long ago the card bugged and kept doing 99% utilization even when I was on windows (the game was minimized) and the average fps went to 40~60 in the same game and the same settings.

In reality my biggest disappointment is with AMD and their driver support, after 1 year the enduro issue should be fixed, if for any reason it is an hardware issue they should recall their graphics cards and fix them, I don't need to have and pay for a 800hp sports car if I can only use 200hp while racing...

 

I remember seeing this thread pop up a few months after I got my sager. Sucks that you are still having these issues. As a counterpoint, I'm 10 months in and quite frankly loving my rig. I've swapped out hard drives, repasted, and have close to 750gb of games installed, all of which run amazingly. I'm still at stock clocks as well. The ease of getting to the components has helped me learn how to do simple repair jobs.

The laptop travels with me fairly regularly a few times a month but otherwise stays in the house, but still gets moved room to room. I've noticed no problems with build quality, flex, or components. Certain design elements of the laptop do attract quite a bit of dust, such as the panel gaps.

I've noticed under heavy lead after prolonged use that CPU runs a bit hot - 78-82 C. The fan/heat sink alignment could definitely be better - i haven't applied the foil mod yet, but will probably do so on the next repaste.

I haven't experienced any issues with audio - the sound is fine to me. I'm able to run in-game sound through laptops speakers while having a movie play on my tv (connected via HDMI) with the sound coming through the TV.

Keyboard is fine. I was gifted a 'gaming' keyboard but went back to the laptop. Did have an issue where the Q key became stuck once, but it was just some dirt and I was able to remove it.

I would like a more open BIOS, Vbios, etc, but quite frankly those things are a bit beyond my technical know-how at the moment for me to go messing around when everything works as I want it to. It is nice knowing that I do have those options available thanks to the hard work of the sager community, though.

@OP Alienwares are awesome machines. I went back and forth between AW and Clevo before choosing Clevo due to looks and price preferences. I would simply say though that I understand your frustrations due to the combination of hardware design (MUX) on clevo's end and AMD, but I'd say respectfully that AMD is who you should be most mad at, not Clevo, in regards to your gaming woes. Just my 2 cents.

 

I have to say that I'm surprised by everything mentioned here. I have had my Sager NP9170 since August 2012 and can say that the only issue I have had with it is that the keyboard had issues...which when reported to Sager...was fixed immediately. I am planning to upgrade the GPU (I have the GTX675M and upgrading to the GTX680M) and the CPU but other than issues with the power cord plug-in (yeah, it does have a habit of coming unplugged quite often) that I can easily deal with...I like the NP9170 and don't see upgrading to a new one for another year or even two.