My experience with the myth of Sager build quailty

Hi all, I've been prompted by good conscious to relay my experience of the so-called legendary Sager/Clevo build quality.

I read through this forum fairly regularly and keep seeing people talking about how Sager/Clevo build quality is so great, and how they are built like tanks, and made to last etc. My experience has led me doubt such proclamations, and has also led me to write this post.

First of all, to the Fanboi's, I'm not posting this to raise your heckles, or to lord one Laptop brand over another. This is my experience, and I'm sure others from their experience may disagree or agree, which is fair enough either way.

As you can see from my sig and start date, I bought the Sager np9260 from XoticPc around August 2007 for £2,200 sterling (including delivery and taxes). As a side point, this was a pretty painful experience for someone ordering from abroad that resulted in me losing the so-called price-match deal, and extended Parts and Labour guarantee, through bad communication on their part.

So this machine is almost 4.5 years old now. Now some people may consider that to be a fairly good age for a (then top performance) laptop. However, throughout that time I've had several problems concerning the quality of the machine, culminating in my two final problems that came in fairly quick succession.

Before I relay the problems I've had I'll mention that this laptop has not been maltreated at all. When you drop £2,200 on anything you tend to treat it with some respect and look after it. This machine has never left the house on journeys since I've owned it. I've never spilt anything on it, and I've periodically given it fairly good cleans (especially the four fans and vents), and re-pasted the CPU two times since I've had it.

Problems that have occurred (some of these I've posted about to help others that have had similar issues) :

(1) After 2 weeks of receiving this beast, I started getting foggy LCD syndrome. After contact with Sager over a long period of time by email (I live in the UK), and after a vBIOS main card flash, we determined that the LCD cable was bad, they sent me a new one, it worked and the problem went away, never to return.

(2) Approximately 6 months down the line computer had major heat issues (despite have four fans). This was my first time I realised that even if you spend a lot of money on a laptop, you still have to clean the fans/vents After this the temps were still noticeably higher than when I first got the machine, that is when I had to learn how to re-paste the CPU with Arctic Silver. Temperatures went back to normal.

(3) The next issue came 1.5 years after purchase. Thin vertical lines started across my LCD. This got pretty bad after 2 months (had four in the end). I read these forums and did a number of tests and determined the data tabs on the edges of the LCD display were dying. I bought a replacement LCD off-of Ebay, and learnt how to replace the display, which was a steep learning curb for me. Problem solved.

(4) After 3 months I noticed that the LCD display seemed loose. I was pretty sure that I had put everything back correctly after the LCD replacement. Eventually I worked out that one of the two silver screws at the back of the machine appeared to be loose. Not sure why as I did not touch these during the replacement. I carefully tightened the left screw...POP A piece of the upper chassis on the top left hand literally just fell off. The plastic was actually disintegrating (not cracked). Fortunately the hinge was still fine and the loose lid was reasonably tight again.

(5) About 1-2 month after this my Shift key (on the left) stops working. I leave this and start using the Caps Lock key or more awkwardly the right shift. I remove the keyboard give it a good clean (remember no spills on this, and the lid is closed when the laptop is not in use). The issue remained. No problem, I can live with it. Over the course of about 8 months several other keys stop working. I buy a new keyboard off Ebay. Worked fine, after getting help from guys on this forum (I bought an XP keyboard rather a Vista, and had to update BIOs to get it to work).

(6) At around the 2.5 year mark I notice major cracks appearing around the headphone jack (green port at the front, on the right hand side of the audio panel). I don't know when this started, but obviously it was before the moment I noticed it. The headphone port still worked fine, so I left it, and tried to be careful with it.

Over a year the port becomes looser and looser, but still worked. Parts of the green ring of the port started to fragment and fall out. Still worked if jack was in the right position. Finally it gave up the ghost with the whole ring falling apart giving me a non-usable headphone jack this year. Lucky I found a new audio-board on Ebay. I replaced the audio board (had to remove the top part of the chassis - tricky). Audio-board now works fine.

(7) when re-attaching the top chassis (from above) the right hand hinge housing (apart of the chassis) literally crumbles to pieces (note this does not break, it crumbles). The lid was still operational. Until now.

With much of the housing destroyed it was putting more pressure on the hinge cover, which finally gave way and broke. The end result is the whole right hinge mechanism (if not secured) will leave the laptop completely. As of yesterday I have covered the whole right hand hinge area with duct tape and insulation tape. However this means I can no longer close the lid, and if I lift the laptop, the back-swing on the lid is enough to pull the whole mechanism out again due to its weight. This is a poor solution for now.

I don't know maybe I just got a dodgy machine. I expected the usually suspect components to go first, like the CPU, GPUs, the motherboard, the RAM, or even the hard drives (x3). But no, they are all fine, the problems I've had are primary related to the build quality. I have a fully functional laptop, but the chassis is falling apart.

Should the chassis/audio board really be disintegrating like this on a well-looked-after £2,200 laptop of supposedly superb build quality? I think not. Even at 4.5 years old, I've never had a laptop (Dell, Asus, ThinkPad, Samsung and Packard Bell) actually fall apart like this, or have so many of these other problems occurring on the same machine.

Ladies and gentlemen I submit to you from (my experience) that Sager/Clevo doesn't deserve such accolades.

Maybe their new machines are better, I don't know, only time will tell.

My final synopsis is: I spent that much money for this...really?

 

That's terrible that you had those issues. I would say that all your points are excellent except for #2. No machine is invincible, and Clevo gets pushed for build quality a lot around here. It's good to have a counter balance against those claims.

The one thing that I think needs to be considered is where the bar in the industry lies vs. where people believe it lies. This is the same as buying a hundred thousand dollar car and thinking that nothing can go wrong with it. Most companies have pushed out machines that had minor to severe issues, sometimes without fixing them in the end. I personally recommend Clevo's because: Against the line of the other companies I would consider only the machines I've seen, to be above the average grade.

I'm curious to know what warranty option you chose when buying?

 

He bought it from US and he used it in UK. Warranty somewhat useless to him...

 

I see where I missed that now, my bad. That's strange though, because I'm planning on buying from the US and I live in Asia. I was just told as long as I ship it to them, it can still be serviced. Not that it's really all that important to the core of the post.

I still support the OP's view that it can be made to sound like they're indestructable, when they really aren't.

 

Clevo build quality is nothing special, and is highly overrated by some people in this forum, in my opinion. I think Clevo in general is maybe a little bit above average, but certainly far away from the standard you get with Lenovo Thinkpad T/W series, HP Elitebook, or Dell Precision. However; I did not buy my Clevo for the build quality, but for the performance. I would have gone for a ThinkPad or a HP Elitebook if I was looking for superior build quality alone.

I have the D900F, and have had absolutely no problems with the build quality, externally or internally, in the 1.5 years I have had it, but it feels a bit plasticy for a laptop in this price range, and the screen is certainly far from being amongst the best laptop screens.
The X7200 both looks and feels more solid, and from the pictures I have seen of the new W and P line of Clevo laptops, they will maybe offer the same kind of quality feel to them.

 

I think the use of the term myth in your title is totally inaccurate. Clevo/Sager has a reputation of having a quality laptop for good reason.

While I sympathize with you getting a bum machine, your experience is by far a rare occurrence.

If you read through the Clevo/Sager forum threads, you don’t see a lot of people complaining about having a lot of issues. The biggest thing you don’t see is people having issues that are design related, like having overheating problems, throttling problems, etc... These types of problems if present are usually caused by poor installation of the heat sink compound. (Which Sager in particular could improve upon), however these types of problems are seen regularly as design issues of some of the large laptop manufactures. The Engineering in the Clevo/Sager machines really is pretty good for a consumer grade machine. Sure there are business lines of the majors that are better, but then they are supposed to be premium class.


There are issues that are not perfect in the Clevo/Sager lines like inattention to sound quality and using cheap touchpad controllers for example, but even those things have seen more attention in the latest releases. (using cheaper components does bite into your reputation).

Also there was a big fuss recently about inadequate power supplies on the 7280, they acknowledged the problem and came up with a quick fix (while not the most elegant it does work). If you look at some of the majors, it takes a lot complaining by a lot of people to fix problems, some of which never get fixed.

Like anything you buy that contains high technology, such as a car, laptop, TV, there is bound to be lemons. It’s just the nature of things.

 

From my point of view and experience, myth is an accurate term. You may have to look back a few years on the forum for this particular model, as a lot of people seem to have later gen machines in their sigs now (including later D901c revs). But I appreciate that other people may not have had the same experiences as me (as I did say above), though there have been posts about problems with the audio board, and bad LCD cables a while back.

It is possible I got a duff machine. But to have this many issues on a single machine would have to be the mother of bad luck. I've replaced a bad LCD cable, replaced the LCD display, replaced the keyboard, replaced the audio board, had to re-paste the CPU, right hinge housing is totally buggered, the left hinge shows signs of damage, the upper chassis and right hinge would need to be replaced to extend its life a bit more.

All this and all my other more fallible components remain operational, which I'm impressed with (especially the 7950 GTXs), however this highlights the build problems of my machine even more.

I'm not trying to dissuade people from getting a Sager/Clevo, just sharing my experience where Sager/Clevo did not live up to the hype. I originally bought the laptop because everyone was saying the build quality was so good. This was important because I was buying from the states and importing into the UK, and spending more for build quality made sense. At that time we didn't have anything approaching the States in terms of raw performance laptops (bar Rock laptops, which would have cost 100's of pounds more for the same config.).

 

Ever consider that the heat and extra weight from the sli'd 7950's, cpu, and 3 hdd's caused most of the issues? I'm not trying to defend sager, Its just that laptops can get pretty hot and yours is loaded down with a ton of weight putting more stress on the frame, 4.5 years is a long time for a gaming laptop. No excuse for the lcd though.

 

Sorry you got a duff.

Personally I'd never buy from the US. That to me is the big mistake that you have to take responsibility for. The risks you took could of paid off, but....

I have a uk sourced laptop with a 2 yr warranty. I may have paid a bit more but peace of mind is worth it.

 

Yes I think it is reasonable to think the heat has had an effect on the plastic over time Tough plastic that fractures and crumbles indicates prolonged heat stress over time. The weight of the lid probably doesn't help under those circumstances. The odd thing is the right hinge area is cooler than the left side (which is closest to the cards), so that should have gone first. I was hoping that the design guys would have taken these factors into account though.

Although I'm not too impressed with the build of this model, I must say the P170 looks pretty good (not sure if it is an alloy chassis or not) and weighs less. It has more than double the performance of my current rig. At some point I'll have to buy another laptop (probably when this one bites the dust). Would I get another Clevo? I don't know. But at least we have Kobalt in the UK now that sells them at a reasonable price, and more importantly does a 3 year guarantee at a reasonable cost (including pick up and redelivery).

@marchudman: Just saw your post. I agree it was a risk at the time (2007), which I did try to minimise by buying Sager/Clevo. There was no way of getting a similar config at the time in the UK, except at ROCK, which was a lower config for more money.

 

Interesting... I cannot help but wonder what is so terribly wrong with buying from the US, since the Clevo chassis, parts and whatnot - everything used in the UK is exactly the same as Clevo chassis, parts and the rest - used in the US. Or does Kobalt (your signature) produce its own unique UK chassis strictly in-house?

I suppose that maybe you may have paid up to x1.7 more, probably spent x4 more time waiting, and got exactly the same laptop in the end. But yes, peace of mind is priceless indeed, so probably you made the right choice.

 

I'm guessing purchasing in the UK is easier for warranty purposes. It must be a hassle shipping a laptop to Sager (which I think is in California) and waiting for it to be shipped back.

 

I have to agree with you on the build quality, I've only owned 2 Sager machines but I've tested the D900F. The Sager NP8662 has the best build quality I've seen in any laptop, nice and sturdy, it feels and looks like a luxury laptop but is built like a tank, after using it for a year or so I went and bought a W860CU, and I was extremely disappointed.

After that disappointment, I'm kind of skeptical about buying the new 17" Clevo laptop. I'm going to try the M17X R3 first, and if i don't like it, I'll try out the new Clevo machine. It's hard to say really, because... I really hate chiclet keyboards

 

Not just the time it takes, but you'll be shipping it at your expense... Often it will be cheaper to just fix it yourself...

 

Yes, this must be the reasoning beyond that statement - yet the unfortunate experience Techno had attributes to the Clevo build and parts quality only - which is going to be the same regardless of the country the laptop was purchased in.

Hence, marchudman's appeal not to buy Sager in the US is quite misleading, considering the initial subject of this thread.

 

I wasn't suggesting that I wouldn't buy anything from the US. I just would not buy a laptop from a US seller as sorting out problems afterwards is going to be more costly and more chance of problems.

Quality is measured on more than the initial product but also on how well a company deals with problems afterwards.

 

Yes, you are absolutely right... I still perfectly understand Techno's decision to import the laptop - the price difference is very impressive, and also, which is rather important as well, in the US they build and ship laptops lightning fast.

 

Whoa whoa whoa...

Lenovo Thinkpads as high quality?
HP Elite books?!

You must not be using the same laptops we are. We have five HP Elite books in the lab, used as test platforms and demo machines for our software. They have been a huge pain in the . Granted half the problem was the horrific bloatware that HPs come with. The PSU jacks breaking and the lid not latching properly is just icing on the cake of general unreliability and crashes these "elite books" have had over the year we've used them.

Lenovo laptop cases have always been crap. They are built to be light but they break so easily it's absurd. I have seen a Lenovo laptop break in half - literally in half - because the user was in the habit of picking it up one handed by the front with the screen still open. It just snapped right between the keyboard and the wrist rest. The motherboard was still intact but the case had cracked and could be flexed. The laptop had never left the office, the case had no signs of ever being dropped. (Now to be fair, a laptop should not be picked up like that, but still breaking in half is a bit much.)

I have only seen the Panasonic Toughbooks handle use over 5 years and...Apple Macbook Pros. Those are the only machines that I have seen not deteriorate over time. (Also, I would NEVER claim that Macbook Pros are reliable, my own has had four repairs over the 2 years that I have had it and is due for a fifth.)

 

You sir have no idea what you are talking about. Not that many who have posted here do, but it expands on their confusion and others to speak with such confidence about things that are untrue.

Thinkpads are not considered to have the best build quality, they are widely accepted to have be the best. Maybe you had an ideapad, R or SL series.

If you are going to say "thats what I've seen" then why do you speak as if it is fact and goes for everyone else and every machine? And what you said about macbooks is just plain contradictory.
I had a thinkpad t23 which failed literally a few years ago after heavy use from a number of owners. Try finding an occurrence of that with another brand - which brings me to a good point, if thinkpads are crap, what are you saying is decent?
And what is acer then, worth its weight in nickels??

This thread is just stupid, I mean these things happen for a very very general and subtle reason which goes beyond how users treat electronics to their simple relationship with physical objects and their hands.

 

From my point of view, my x7200 look totally solid.
I plan to stick with it a long while, if you must know.
About 2 years from now, i will upgrade to 990x 24gb ram, and double 28m, 100w cards.
That will last me for another 4 5 years.
In total i plan to keep it for 7 8 years with upgrades, esspecialy condiering the video cards are upgradable.

The x7200 seems solid enough to withstand that kind of time.

Of course i would have preffered an all out metal chasis, but i think its good enough the way it is now.
Gaming aint gonna stress its keyboard as i use a g13 logitech, so that should last also.

Hear from my my opinions 8 years from now and see how goold clevo fared with the x7200 build quality

 

Only one who has ongoing multiple machine experience can speak to the overall quality of Clevo machines.

In short, your single negative experience, and my singular positive one, are worth about the same, not much at all.

 

8 years sounds like a bit of a stretch for a computer.

 

well basically comparing my Sager NP5135 with my previous HP HDX16T,

the Sager definitely has inferior build quality.

BTW I paid both around the same price point: $1000

 

I have a dell inspiron from 1999 that still works fine. 1.13GHz Pentium M, 512MB RAM - ok, it's not the best machine in the world, but it works. It has had the display hinges replaced and a ram upgrade.

I wonder how it would fare with 1GB RAM (as I always seem to have RAM floaing about)...And it also has a 15" 1600x1200 screen

 

That's pretty depressing. I'm looking at the NP5160 to replace my HP TM2, and I already feel like my TM2 is very inferior as far as quality goes.

 

Well I don't know about you, but I value the experiences I've have. Please note I am talking about my experience and not anyone else's.

Paying mind to your experiences can help to avoid the following situation :

(Albert Einstein) "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

 

Well, to be honest, some of the issues Techno mentioned (disintegrating plastic of the chassis, crumbling headphone jack), do seem like a somewhat general flaw, which might be common for a number of Sager laptops, and not his laptop only.

But then it is important to understand, that all those problems might concern the np9260 model only. Somehow, I am pretty sure that the newer models are completely different, and devoid of the previous flaws.

 

I hammered a few memory pads on my laptop because they were too thick and I needed them to be thinner. So far nothing has fallen apart... fingers crossed.

Edit: I did manage to make a small crack in the plastic cover of the battery while hammering the CPU heatsink because it was a bit bended. I guess I put too much faith in Clevo build quality.

 

IF the gpu can be changed, the 990x might actualy be enough to hold that long.

 

Actually what I was referring to was the build quality of the case itself. Not the functionality of the laptop as the case is what this thread was about.

Sadly the macbook case is the only thing about it that seems to be able to stand the test of time.

Also, the laptop that broke in half was a Lenovo Thinkpad - no I don't recall the model. I worked at CSC at the time and Lenovos were all they use, this was about 4 years ago

In short I don't think there is a single company out there that makes a laptop that you can safely expect to last 5 years which is what I was trying to say in my first post.

 

2.5 stars out of 5 is all I need to see.

Sager - sagernotebook.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings

 

You don't buy from Sager directly! You buy from resellers like XoticPC or PowerNotebooks.

Xotic PC - xoticpc.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings

PowerNotebooks.com - powernotebooks.com/index.php3 - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings

5 out of 5 stars is more like it!

 

The only thing Thinkpads are the widely accepted as the best with are their keyboards. I've never heard or read online about people boasting about their Thinkpad's build quality. My understanding is that after Lenovo bought IBM's PC division, the quality of everything went down the toilet. Then again, pretty much everything has gone down in quality over the past few years, but I don't think Lenovo laptops are anywhere near as good as the good old IBM laptops.

 

I actually much prefer my xps keyboard to the one on the new thinkpads... This is one of the best feeling laptop keyboards I've ever worked with and its really very nice, both in terms of size and in terms of the pressure and rebound of the keys. Also the feel of them...

 

The problem with sites like this is that people who have had bad experiences are more likely to post feedback than people who had positive experiences. Take a look at the ratings of other computer manufacturers.

Dell - dell.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings
Toshiba - toshiba.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings
Lenovo - lenovo.com/think/us/en/index.html - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings
Hewlett Packard - hp.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings
ASUS - asus.com - Reviews, Ratings and Prices at ResellerRatings

Comparatively speaking, 2.5 out of 5 isn't too bad.

 

Exactly. If all we need to see are their ratings, no one would be getting computers.

 

It's not just them who have low ratings, It's pretty much the whole computer industry. Having a 4 star rating is very high for any one in it (not counting stores).

 

Yeah, if laptops had dog years 5 would be around when I would think you had a full lifespan. I'm not sure how many Sager/clevo's I have had at this point, seven or eight? I would rate some of those as being above average in quality and others below as compared to other ODMs I have owned. In my own experience around the 2 year mark I am going to start having troubles with any laptop from anyone. Seems like something is always giving out, be it the optical drive, a hinge breaking, whatever. In this regard I like clevo's because often as not it can be fixed by a DIY. I used to use two laptops, a dtr and a carry. I do know that my carries never last as long and always suffer more material failures than the dtr. I know this is obvious but no one has really brought up that laptops are often used different ways and a road warrior is just going to take more of a beating than one that mostly sits on a desk. Usage is an major factor in a laptops lifespan no matter how well it's built.

 

What a narrow minded and totally inaccurate way to see things...
Like others say, look at other companies. Everybody company has problems. What's important is where you get your computer and that's why we buy them from resellers.

 

it would seems 2.5 is high to me after looking at that. but yeah, definitely using on a desk as opposed to being a road warrior can separate lifetimes dramatically.

 

By comparison, most resellers have 4 or greater. This is the obvious difference between a manufacturer/ODM and a reseller. ODM's are good at making hardware while resellers provide customer support, which is what the ODM's tend to lack.

 

Personally, if I lived in the UK, I would never buy a Sager (especially from the US), unless perhaps I lived near a reputable reseller that would work as my "middle man" to acquire parts for warranty claims, but then again, you're paying Euro-prices (which are generally alot greater than US/Can prices).

Buying US can be good, you just have to go for companies with good warranties.

For example, many UK members here order Alienware's from HIDevolution, located in Florida. They get their AW systems for US-price this way and the warranty instantly transfers over after filling out an online form (and yes, you'd get next-day on-site tech warranty).

Also, Asus has 2 years global for their warranty, so you could again import from the US with no issues and get US-prices.

 

Legendary build quality?

You kidding right? 12 lb +300watt lappy built with nothing but plastic...

 

Not from my experience, that's why I started the thread But a lot of people here have said things to that effect or stated that Sager/Clevos are of extremely good build quality.

Note that at the time I said my laptop was 4.5 years old, my maths was off by a year, it was actually 3.5 years old at the time of the original post, which makes it even more poignant I guess.

 

Thinking that your single bad experience negates the opinions of the hundreds of posters on this forum, is just silly . There is no "myth". You are just one person. Every product line in existence will exhibit failures, and you need to realize that going into it. The fact is that one machine has failed.

Your main issue was that you shortsightedly bought from an overseas company, and had no warranty coverage. If you were in the US, and could RMA, this thread wouldn't have a purpose.

 

Wow. With my warranty, the first 5 and number 7 all would have been covered. Number 6 after 2 and a half years, might be the way you plug in and take out the plug, might be worn out from whatever, but 2 1/2 years is dog years on a laptop. Perhaps you did get a bad unit, but that is why you need to make sure you have a warranty on an expensive laptop, car, whatever.

I assume all electronics can have faults, that is why I make sure they have warranties, then use that warranty to repair or replace. I have had things go wrong on ipods, laptops, video gear, cameras... over the years many things can go wrong. Just make sure you get have a warranty and understand how it works before you spend your hard earned cash.

Now don't think I don't have sympathy, but it is our job before buying to know what will happen if we buy the Friday afternoon or Monday morning unit. (Friday afternoon workers are thinking about the weekend, Monday morning they are hungover). I have had many different laptops over the years, and have followed the forums on all of them. None are immune to F-M workers. None.

As far as build quality, there needs to be specifics on what we are talking about. I have had laptops with chassis built like a tank. Unfortunately, the internals were less than stellar, or they may have had poor cooling. That will give you issues very quickly. I have a Dell Latitude that is built very well, and has good cooling in it. It just doesn't have high end GPU (it barely qualified as a mid range GPU when I bought it). So it is limited in what I can use it for.

I bought a Sager because I need it for photo and video editing, and time is money for me. I need performance, but I also need it to stay cool and last me. The keyboard feels a bit flimsey to me, and although fairly stout chassis, I don't dare drop it. Yet it is the coolest running fast machine I have tried. It is all about YOUR/OUR perception of what quality is.

In closing, I really don't care what anyone thinks/knows is the best, that manufacturer will still have some bad units. Maybe because one of the parts they purchase is bad. That buyer will be more likely to go to a forum and complain.

I have seen studies that over years showed that there will be 27 complaints to every compliment. It was about 12-13 years ago I read the study, but in real life, I see it close to that at work. For every very satisfied customer, there are a couple of dozen complainers. Perspective is often more important than reality in business.

 

No, what is silly is that you haven't read the original post or subsequent discussion. I already stated that this was my experience, does that invalidate anything I said? Does that mean I shouldn't post unless you think it is relevant? Are you for real? Most of your rather rude points have already been answered previously in the thread. I would reiterate them for you, but why should I if you can't even be bothered to read them.

 

Just an update to this thread.

Comparcing NP8130 to NP5135,

NP8130 absolutely has much better build quality.

On par with HP HDX16T.

 

this thread needs to die already. sorry about your loss. happens. i would probably whine too. but that is part of the reason i bought sager. the warranty and how it's handled. my np2092 motherboard fried a couple days after i received it. rma'ed it and had the laptop back in 7 days. still works great. it happens. you just didn't have access to the warranty. get over it.

 

No one is trying to invalidate your personal experience. However, it remains just that - your personal experience. Yet, the thread title and original post sought to generalize this to all products of Clevo/Sager. The generalization would have held more weight if the number of negative user experiences far outweighed the positive ones, which is simply not the case, at least on NBR.