NP8851 vs NP8954

Maybe the second picture is caused by the lower cpu load ?

We all know about the 150W SYSTEM power limit. It only affects GPU OC performance, you'll lose 5% multi core performance at best stock.

It will stream just fine.

 

No. You clearly have no idea how a system should run.


On full load in witcher 3 CPU gets 25W at best. I'll show you how clockspeeds should look like.

 

Sherry pick screenshots all you like. The game is averaging 3.75ghz and you choose the time when it's 2.6ghz.

150W is very tight for a 1070MQ system. Higher memory frequncy(2400mhz vs 2667mhz), max display brightness, high ram usage and high CPU load may be more than enough to overwhelm the 150w PSU and cause power throttling(like the screenshot above). But again this is not murdering performance like the good old 923mhz throttling did.

The issue is there. Just not as severe as you make it out to be

 

I'm not cherry picking I'm showing you literally what happens when the GPU usage goes up what happens with the CPU usage.
You were crying about throttling to 900mhz, but this is in reverse, instead now the CPU suffers instead of the GPU and you're suddenly fine with it.

This is a 6700HQ on high load in Assassins Creed origins:


This is the same CPU on low load in Mafia 2:


The usage is STABLE, it doesn't move one bit, because the CPU is sufficently powered and doesn't get EC throttled. Games like Assassins creed which are very CPU demanding would degrade your 1070maxQ to GTX 1050 levels and you say it's not severe.

That's why I'm so bummed out that Dennis can't record Assassins Creed.

 

The I7 6700HQ dropped from 22W to 16W in lower load.

The GPU throttling issue lowered performance to 1060MQ, I doubt even 2ghz can lower it to 1050 performance.

The CPU throttling isn't as severe+ part of it is intels fault.

Lets see if it happens in ac origins. But even if it comes out identical to BF1(~3.3ghz average) you'll still **** on it.

Moreover I can bet AC origins will thermal throttle the CPU. why don't you ask the guy with LM P955ER from gentechpc to do that. Then we can count thermals out.

Also apply the same standards to the GS65. It will probably **** the bed just as hard as the P955 in BF1

 

BTW a stock I7 8750H gets 37~40w in BF1 with no UV. So it's thermal throttling.

 

Exacly my point, it only needed 16Watts to sustain its full speed because it needed much less power, while on AC:O it was at 22W which was needed on full power, the clockspeed didn't even move 1mhz. thats why the screenshots I posted are so important, on witcher 3 it needed FAR MORE than only 20 watts hence the breakdown in CPU.

Assassins Creed is extremely CPU intensive, 2ghz will easily break it down to GTX 1050 levels.

No, nowhere does intel state, "please run my CPU at 20Watts". I don't care if you buy the turdbook and decide to turn a blind eye to it, you decided to ignore what people told you and even Prema said, but I won't allow you to spread garbage that a CPU that gets choked by the EC is "thermal throttling" at 70c, or that this is intels fault etc. This is entirely clevos work, as you mentioned the other thin and lights will also thermal throttle but they won't choke the CPU as Clevo does, which is extremely important for people who care about what they buy.

Meanwhile gigabyte:


Oh look, playing fortnite while STREAMING on 90% - 100% usage while maintaining 3.6 - 3.7ghz

When he turned the stream on it was on STABLE 3.9ghz because guess what, thats CPU at least gets some juice and doesn't get castrated by garbage EC to the point where it's an utter nightmare. Stop spreading misinformation about the garbage clevo that nobody should ever buy period.

 

Also stop spreading nonsense. That guy has undervolted his CPU -125mv. You didn't even bother watching his videos now did you?? At least you have proven my point, thanks.



that guy even uses LM, Kryonaut and those expensive pads.

 

I'll begin on were we agree.

Under a combined streaming and gaming load the CPU will melt down. A 150w PSU can't feed a 100% CPU and GPU. So the CPU will throttle to 2.2ghz and destroy the stream quality.

A 150W PSU won't cut it. It's barely enough for games like BF1. Add streaming and the 150W power limit will be passed causing power throttling.

Were we disagree

This is the fault of all resellers who sell the laptop with a 150W PSU to save 10$. EVOC P955 which comes with a 180W PSU will hold just like the video above(assume no thermal throttling)

 

I watched both video multiple times

He bought a new laptop after this video for the thermal update video(see comment). Everything in the second video is stock

 

No, as Prema already has pointed out, this is EC related. If you mod a 230W PSU to the system, it won't change anything.

Also no, it's the same notebook, you just made that up. The temps showcased in his videos are also proof of that, since HP Omen notebook stock run at 90+ C in overwatch alone.

Literally first comment on that video:

He literally says its that modded notebook that is in his review etc. because it would easily run at 100c on bf1 stock.

Stop making things up. It's annoying.

 

Not all resellers use the same EC. But It might be the case that even the ones with the 180W PSU have the same limit.
We need confirmation for that.

A 180W EC limit can handle streaming+ gaming
A 150W EC limit can't

But I'll assume the worst that even ones with the 180W PSU have the same EC limit. Even though It would be extreme incompetence.

He bought a new one for his update video


This is the updated video with the new, stock laptop

 

At least his review was his modded one, so the question is, did he undervolt or not on his thermal update video? I already contacted him for more information on this.

Also Dennis is doing a benchmark to show what happens when CPU and GPu are being stressed at the same time.

Can you name just 1 reseller, that offers a 180W PSU with the notebook?

 

I'd assume bone stock means no UV but I'll ask him anyway.UPDATE : second video is undervolted.

180W camp
EVOC

150W camp
Sager
XMG
GENTECH
Eurocom
Lpc digital
Prostar
Xoticpc
Metabox
Hyperlink

 

Could also be adressed to thermal paste, so let's see what he says. So only Evoc apparently, did you ask them about benchmarks etc.?

 

The second video is undervolted but no thermal paste/pads. Which confirms further the existence of CPU power throttling.

To think HIDevoultion is the only one combatant enough to know a 150W PSU is not enough....

Ask who about benchmarks ? Evoc ?

 

Or they are the only ones who don't know that 150W PSU won't stop EC from doing its thing.

Meanwhile gigabyte aeros getting 215W PSU.
MSI 180W.
HP Omen 15 200W.

 

And razer getting 230W.

200W is enough for a 90W 1070MQ.

180W is enough for a 80W 1070MQ.

150W is enough with slight CPU throttling for CURRENT games.

EVOC is like sager. They make their own EC.

If sager changes to 180W the majority of this list will turn to 180W camp. As they sell to almost everyone.

 

EVOC makes their own BIOS, but as far as I know EC is crypted, there is no modding in that, might be wrong, you should ask Prema about that, but if I remember correcly he said it's crypted and therefore, no custom EC.

Also thats not slight throttling, 2.2ghz - 3.9ghz is severe. AC:O, Streaming, Ashes of the Benchmark etc. are all absolute no win situation with the turdbook.

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/index.php?posts/10752396

 

Good thing you showed up.
Does the 180W PSU help or does EC nerf to 150W regardless?

Or don't u know yet?

 

EVOC buys the hardware from clevo directly and then makes software for it, that includes UEFI and bios.

Unless they are stealing sager UEFI or gutting the thing on purpose the power draw limit will be 180W

180W is enough. GS65 uses that.

 

first of all no, prema does the work, second of all, Prema basicially linked an answer where he's saying that he's still testing, so EC still limiting at this point regardless of PSU as it seems.
Enjoy.

 

EVOC makes their own bios. So their limit will be 180W .

Prema will remove all cancer EC throttling, 180w or a 150w.

I wouldn't even be suprised if prema mod makes the P955 surpass even the RB 2018

 

Let's phrase it this way. The firmware doesn't adjust throttle according to the type of adapter connected...they just want their user to be prepared.

 

But doesn't EVOC make the firmware ? . So shouldn't their firmware be linked with the hardware they use ?

Unless clevo is the one making the firmware, which means were all ****ed.

 

Figured as much. Better to be safe than sorry, take as much time as you need to test the hardware.

We don't want exploding clevo notebooks

Let us know once you finalized the project! Maybe you can fix this mess clevo created.

@ ahmad hendeh
No, they slap Prema BIOS on it and thats that. They have no custom firmware to my knowledge. I think the only guys that make custom BIOS etc. are XMG, Sager and Eurocom.

 

Knowing Prema it won't explode. Just won't be silent . But It will back a bang to compensate.

 

Thats why he didn't release anything yet, he tests stuff before he does damage unlike intel (spectre fix v1)

We don't know if Prema can fix this or not, as it stands the clevo is the worst thin and light notebook to date. Maybe Prema can fix it, maybe the hardware simply isn't able to handle it, we don't know yet. So before Prema releases a fix for this garbage, that notebook is an absolute no go.

 

Sad for all the people in the 1600$~1750$ area.

At least HP omen 15 is a laptop for those people. Which is neither thin or silent.but has better battery than P955 despite having no optimus.

It makes me puke blood to even praise HP.

 

They at least give enough craps to release a BIOS update to attempt and fix their mess, while we rely on 3rd party to fix clevos garbage and since 7 years still waiting for a control center that isn't absolute garbage

 

Prema bios isn't released yet. So they are using their own one. Which seems to have the 150W EC throttling limit.

They are just using a 180W so once prema mod hits we'll need it(we might even need 230w)

 

I don't think that the EC code is specifically designed to impose the 35w limit based only on the power of the adapter.

My guess is that, the 35w power limit is more related to the thermal headroom for the CPU when the load is combined (CPU + GPU load), so if I'm right, the limit is just there to further manage thermals under combined loads (since most of the heatsink designs are unified, the heat from the GPU is shared with the one on the CPU, meaning less thermal headroom for the CPU).

From what I've gathered so far, most of the thin and light notebooks have the 35w limit under combined loads, but there is one notebook (the 2018 razer blade) that has a 35w limit even when the GPU is not used:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...n-owners-lounge.817185/page-115#post-10754455

@Prema
Am I close to the truth with my previous assumption?

 

There are throttle limits for:

- CPU only
- GPU only
- CPU & GPU combined

(Using a different AC Adapter won't change any of them).

 

dingdingding we got a winner.

I have seen GS 65 getting to the 40s but usually gets thermal throttled down again. So it's still meh.

 

1 The CPU has a 45W limit, can bypass to unlimted for 28 seconds(so your first CB run scores high).
2 The GPU has a 80W limit
3 The system has a 150W limit.

Lets compare number 3 with the competitors :
1 GS65 : 180W
2 15X : 215W
3 RAZER : 230W

The third one dictates if the GPU is getting 80W, the CPU can only get ~35W of power. Raise your brightness and you can choke the CPU even harder.

Razer doesn't have a 35W limit. The CPU locking to 35W is a bug/safety feature as not everyone is getting it. Razer has set the CPU TDP to 60W from 45W.

Assuming streaming + gaming load :

The gigabyte can hold 3.7ghz.
The GS65 can do 3.7ghz if it wasn't for MSI retarded overvolting. Holds 3.4ghz
The razer can do 3.9ghz due to the raised TDP.
The clevo is a rollercoaster between 2.2ghz and 3.9ghz, murdering any chance of a streaming + gaming


Don't **** on all thin and light laptop because of clevo. Let's not forget that these are XPS 15 sized laptops(not the clevo as the P955 is larger) that pack one hell of a punch.

 

I think you don't mean XPS, I think you mean the G series. They are indeed not to shabby, especially considering the price. Also HP Omen seems to be a valid option as well.

 

No I mean XPS . The G series are thick and heavy

Lets compare dimensions between XPS 15 vs GS65

GS 65 : 14.06'×9.72'× 0.7'
XPS 15 : 14.06'×9.27'×0.66'

Weight
GS65 : 4.1lb
XPS 15(97Whr) : 4.5lb

The RB 2018 and aero 15x are similar.

These are amazing notebooks. Don't generalize clevo issues.

 

RB are build to die, hence I consider them worse than Clevo. Also XPS don't have better GPU than GTX 1050 so idk if you should even compare it.

 

This is a point of praise for the 'thin and lights'(P955 excluded) . As they packed 92~87% of gtx 1070 performance in an XPS like chassis while keeping the I7 8750H throttling to a minimum.

I don't reccomend razer.

Clevo has the larger chassis and the better cooling. I have faith that prema can make it outperform even a RB2018.

 

Picture comparing sizes of thin and light laptops.

There is no excuse for the clevo to not OUTPERFORM the rest. Let alone performing below them

 

If you look in the razer thread, you'll see that there are enough users reporting the 35w limitation.

The CPU has a short power limit PL2 (which is usually 1.25x PL1) which can be maintained for a limited amount of time, after that it should be limited by the long term power limit PL1 at 45w (if the EC doesn't overwrite that with an arbitrary imposed limit based on what factors the notebook manufacturer wants).

There is at least one user there that has 60w for PL1 displayed, but apparently it is IGNORED, because in stress tests it triggers the limit at 45w and after a delay it is further limited to 35w (and it stays that way for the remaining duration of the test).

Call it whatever you want, but it is a 35w limit and it's a power limit as it behaves like one (the triggering factors can be different).

There are different behaviors for the same razer models, but apparently they all have the 35w limit, the main difference is in the way it kicks in: some reported a behavior where it was limited at 45w for a while and after a delay the 35w limit kicked in, others have mentioned that they are instantly limited at 35w by exceeding that CPU power draw (this is without any GPU load).

Your assumption is probably based on the theory that there is only one EC power limit and it is only related to the combined power draw, but the limit/limits can be whatever the manufacturer wants it to be and can be triggered by multiple factors.

The fact that razer has a more powerful adapter, doesn't mean that it doesn't suffer from similar limitations (which are probably there to keep thermals in check).

I'll even give you a link to a stress test that shows the razer's thermal limitations (with stock paste) at the usual 45w limit (which could be the main reason why the notebook is limited to 35w... in order to maintain better internal and external temps):

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...n-owners-lounge.817185/page-114#post-10754349

Here you have an eg. of core power limit exceeded with a max cpu package of 45w while the PL1 limit shows 60w:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...n-owners-lounge.817185/page-115#post-10754608

I'm not bashing all the thin and light models, I'm just saying that they all have a lower heat dissipation potential (compared to some of the better designed thick models) and the manufacturers have chosen to manage the thermals by adding other arbitrary imposed limits.

Saying that the X model holds y clocks doesn't mean anything, unless you provide the full context (under what loads, for how long, what's the CPU package power and at what's the undervolt offset?).

Examples of gaming scenarios are less relevant if we don't have enough data (a hwinfo log file would be nice), because it's almost impossible to properly debate the behavior without having at least a few constants (CPU loads fluctuate in gaming).

 

Interesting. I thought RB 2018 had a 60W PL1.

So the RB2018 has a 35W limit than. You can say it makes up for it with the fastest 1070MQ gpu.

Even if it had a 120W tdp I wouldn't reccomend it. Razer puts the ROM and PCH below the heatsink to overheat(meaning the laptop won't last) . That alone is 100× worse than even a 15w TDP limit.

You can see from this thread that the P955 is melting away under a streaming load. While the aero 15x handles it effortlessly.

All clevo issues are software ones which means they can be fixed. The only thing we need to do is force them to fix them for the sake of the people who bought this "1070MQ" laptop

 

In a nutshell all thin and lights throttle the CPU when having combined load. My gripe with this issue is that the clockspeed is simply not stable, which causes unwanted effects such as bad frametimes etc. I would much prefer a quadcore I7 - 8700HQ at stable 3.6ghz than this garbage we are currently getting.

I mean this is insane, your clockspeed all depends on what game etc. you're playing, it's stupid. I would much rather have hardware which is not castrated running stable for stable and nice performance rather than constantly choking my hardware.

But sadly we got greedy idiots who want to brag with specs instead of making a good notebook. it's pathethic.

I honestly think I prefer 7700HQ over the 8750H at the moment. The extra cores don't help in gaming all that much so why bother.

 

Razer has a good reason to do it. As if they allowed the I7 8750H to run at max power it will blow the PCH and ROM chips inside the heatsink .so they probably updated the bios with the 35W limitation after record RMA numbers. Doesn't mean they don't suck

Aero 15x doesn't suffer from anything. 3.6ghz is how a stock i7 8750H performs under gaming+ streaming stress.

GS65 suffers from MSI retarded bios overvolting. Not as bad as clevo

Clevo suffers from cancer 150w EC limit.

The cpu going from 2.2ghz to 3.9ghz constantly every second means that your frame times will vary heavily, ruining streams.

The only thing the clevo suffers from is cancer frimware and corner cutting. It has the potential to outperform even the RB2018(9% behind a 1070N)

 

@Danishblunt

Yeah, it's debatable if 8750H is worth the difference on some castrated notebooks (if the main use is just gaming), when you really have to tune them and limit the performance according to the imposed power limits (and thermal limits, since most of the thin laptops have a lower prochot limit, hovering around 90C).

On the other side, even without using higher TB clocks than 7700HQ, we have a significantly higher multicore performance, which could be put to good use in some productivity oriented tasks.

The " normal" (as in thickess) models that are limited at 45w are good for gaming, since most games don't have a CPU power draw that often exceed 45w (just sporadic fluctuations based on the load), so they maintain most of the time 3.9Ghz IF undervolted.

One example is helios 300 with 8750H (which is mostly criticized for the suboptimal cooling solution) but it mostly maintains 3.9ghz in gaming (45w limit) if undervolted (at least in games that have a relatively medium intensity on the CPU, such as PUGB or COD WW2).

@ahmad hendeh

I didn't check aero 15x's behavior in different scenarios, but it does have its own problems (the keyboard that double registers or doesn't properly register after the fix and other software related problems).

Msi GS is probably the most balanced option and some problems could be resolved by unlocking the BIOS, + if you have enough thermal headroom, it could be possible to use a trick to report a lower power draw so you can exceed the PL.

 

Asus Zephyrus M (GM501GS) is the best thin-and-light 8th gen gaming notebook IMO: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-...-GTX-1070-Full-HD-Laptop-Review.293956.0.html

 

the Aero 15x double keyboard register was fixed in an update. gigabyte main issue is that their drivers conflict with windows ones causing freezing. their support is also abysmal.

the I7 8750H performance is strong enough already in the GS. any thermal headroom should be invested in closing the 1070MQ VS 1070 gap as that's way more important(my opinion). if the GS65 used the 90W 1070MQ it would have been the perfect 'thin and light' laptop.(it doesn't have that option in the bios after researching)

I'm aware of that trick. but I see no point in allowing the I7 8750H to exceed it's PL, as MSI overvolting will just make it draw abysmally high levels of power without returning a decent increase in performance to justify it.

 

I think synthetic benches like 3dmark shouldnt be used to compare different laptops because of the parts not being under real stress. A actual gaming load with 3 runs will give you a much better idea of the differences in performance. For instance I had a gecube 1070 and an MSI 1070, one at 110w and the other 150w. I saw a performance difference of essentially a 1060 vs 1080 because the GPU boost could be so unleaahed.

 

If you run firestrike ultra (4k) that will put a VERY heavy load on the GPU.