No more gpu upgrades for p170hm and p150hm (sandy bridge) :(

Are you saying that the bios on the w860cu was updated to support the 6970m and the proof for this is that the 6970m is working?

Maybe I misunderstood you, but that argument is circular and doesn't make any sense.

The latest BIOS for the w860cu was released in october/november 2010, long before the 6970m was released. Also this bios added support for the gtx 470m. Was support added for the 6970m as well? We don't know that (unless you argument above proves this). What we do know is that Clevo at this point were getting ready to release the P-series. So why would they add support to the w860cu at this point? It does not make sense.

Finally, the assumption that clevo added support for the 6970m to the w8*0cu is just wrong. The first successful attempt to install a 6970m in the w870cu was done by Ice-tea (Kris from mxm-upgrade). He was not using the latest bios as seen in these posts:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sag...w870cu-sager-np8690-np8760-4.html#post7236355 and
http://forum.notebookreview.com/sag...w870cu-sager-np8690-np8760-5.html#post7256102.
I have never seen anyone mentioning they had to upgrade their BIOS to get the 6970m working. I've been pm'ed by more than one user about this and I've always said it's not necessary and I truly believe that. This proves the fact that there wasn't a need for an updated BIOS for the 6970m. While your claim that "Clevos seem to support GPUs by specific models in the BIOS." is probably correct, that doesn't mean that all GPU's without BIOS support won't work.

So if this is what you are basing you prediction that newer cards won't work in the HM-series on, you are mistaken, both logically and factually. If I misunderstood you, I apologize and am prepared to be corrected. As I said earlier, I am very far from an expert on these matters, and I might have misunderstood your argument.

But it seems to me as the W-series as the P-series, had bios updates directed at supporting newer GPU's. However, this doesn't automatically mean that future cards won't work without a supported bios. The 6970m in the w-series is proof of this.

I'm sorry this is such a long post. i really didn't want to start a long discussion about this. I agree that the fact the w860cu can be upgraded to the 6970m has nothing to do with the future GPU-compatibility of the HM-series. But I thought I would take the time to set some facts about the 6970m in the w860cu straight.

None of us know whether the new cards will work or not. You mentioned the MXM-structure in the clevo bios being poor. That's may very well be, but we don't know if this will affect future cards.

As I said before, we will just have to wait and see.

 

I don't see any problems with the GTX 680m and 7970m working in the P150/170/180HM models. Take into consideration that Clevo never supported (in terms of Bios) the GTX 580m or AMD 6970/6990m in the P180HM. Yet all three cards work and the laptops were being sold with these options. As long as you buy Clevo GPU's I don't think there will be any problems. Just my 2 cents....

 

Some resellers did it for the P180HM. The strict sager resellers like xoticpc followed sager policy though. The P180HM got the 6990m but never the 580M IIRC.

 

To be fair though, the 580m wasn't offered in SLI there because it drew too much power and created too much heat.

 

None the less, a single 580m configuration still worked without issues despite the bios only officially supporting GTX 560m in SLI.

 

Yeah this is a big deal. If clevo isn't supporting newer technology in one year old models it kinda defeats what to me is the major advantage of their laptops - customizabilitty and upgradeability.
And although I love this brand, such lack of support is making me think twice.

Resellers please do something about this.

Sent from my samsung galaxy s2 using tapatalk

 

I don't know how much they are actually losing out due to lack of support for upgrades - they might earn more if they prevent such cheaper alternatives to upgrade, and hence the incentive to block out such actions.

Seeing how MSI is catching up to them in the gaming league with its competitive prices and comparatively open upgrade options, Clevo may need to ditch this near-sighted act and predict the long term effects in losing loyal customers who swear by the Clevo brand.

Once they start to lose the community's name-sake upgradeability impressions, their huge route of sales- through various forums / resellers - will have chunks of information comparing them to the upgrade potentials of Alienware and MSI, which will only bring detrimental results to sales.

Niff has made a valuable point here, no matter what the older models are like now, the newest generation of Clevos don't seem to support the one-generation-later card and it seems more likely that the HM's and the EM's are just on separate grounds.

I'll keep close attention to this post and what mythlogic experiments, I am truly grateful that we have such an enthusiast builder on the forums to satiate our needs for information that simply cannot be obtained through regular methods.

 

Not to be negative, but this entire thread feels like its made of herp-derp. Yes, they don't usually do bios upgrades after the model is discontinued but no they are not intentionally blocking video cards while twirling their mustaches and laughing maniacally. I would seriously doubt any issues with the line while their extended warranties last. I would be surprised if the sandy bridge line wasn't compatible with the new 680m and the 780m after that. Any other graphics cards are pretty much irrelevant, other than the top of the line radeons

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

No expert here but all you have to do is take a look at the MXM3.0 specification and you can see that Niff is closer to the truth then
everybody else that is guessing.

To simplify the standard says there is a common interface to query the VBios or OEM ROM for details on how to implement the GPU.
The standard does not do anything by itself.

So there is something that Clevo has had to do in order for any GPU to work. The main things that need to be specified
are the thermal requirements and display configuration(s).


To Quote the Spec See Below.

Standard Software Interfaces — The MXM software specification describes software interfaces
between the system BIOS and module software (VBIOS and GPU driver). Required as a minimum is
a way to obtain the MXM-SIS typically stored in the SBIOS – it can also be stored in a separate ROM
on the platform. The specification includes versions of these calls both for use before the OS has
loaded (int15h, EFI) and after (ACPI). MXM v 3.0 interfaces function even if the MXM GPU is not
the primary (POSTed) GPU.

 

Without Clevo BIOS support, all cards except for the ones they put in the BIOS microcode are nada- simply won't work without BIOS mods.

It seems the W860CU has had a good amount of updated BIOS's for newer GPUs, let's see how long Clevo will provide newer BIOS's for the HM's.

 

over the past 1 or 2 years ive seen formerly loyal sager owners (and active nbr members) migrate to other brands/models for varying reasons, but this lack of support has to be one of the top reasons.
after purchasing two sagers myself, this trend is quite disconcerting.

i for one, expect that i will be able to upgrade my components barring any hardware limitations. and bios support is definitely not a limitation.

i hope the resellers can help us out on this.

 

The 6970M was never added to the W860CU/W870CU via BIOS update, yet it works anyway.

Feel free to provide hard evidence which proves my statement as erroneous. I'm only putting it out there like that because it's being implied with no data provided.

If Clevo has not given a line any BIOS updates for months, and a new generation, new architecture GPU is plug and play, there is no explanation other than "it just worked', and it pretty much ends there.

.............

As far as whether the 7900Ms and GTX 680M will work in the HMs: I do not believe one can say it will work or not with 100% certainty, but I can certainly provide a long list of machines and GPUs which have proven compatible, despite lacking any BIOS.

This is across many lines; MSI, Clevo, Alienware, Acer, and Asus all have an example or two.

Your fabricated drama is weird. No manufacturer promises GPU upgrades into the future, on current or previous models.

The "trend" is industry wide and goes back to the beginning of time.

 

Thanks for the input, I'm not too keen on BIOS stuff..

What other boot-up process does the GPU go through in order for it to be recognized by the system? There must be some catch that is preventing some cards from booting up in the HMs, and as you've provided that some cards did run even without BIOS updates, there must be something other than the BIOS itself that plays a role in determining which ones are bootable and which ones are not..

This is just a question for anyone who knows a lot about this stuff, I really want to learn how this works.

 

Mythlogic is really good about upgrades. Seriously considering one of their rigs at some point

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

Feel free to disregard HOW the standard ACTUALLY works. To continue
with a opinion because "somebody did something AND it worked"
proves anything and ends the conversation doesn't add anything
to the party.

How about this.

1.) MAYBE the last vbios update HAD something for the card. Perhaps
manufacturers ACTUALLY KNOW more about upcoming technology than
the CONSUMERS AND know it well in ADVANCE.

2.) MAYBE the card in question actually required the same profile as
ANOTHER card ALREADY in the vbios.

3.) PERHAPS the OEM implementation DIDN'T require a card to be
NAMED but looked at OTHER characteristics AND AGAIN those
were there.

4.) MAYBE the moon and stars just lined up and all gpu's at that
time got a pass and didn't need vbios definition.

5.) FINALLY as already MENTIONED WHY would Clevo announce they
will no longer supply updates if THEY DON'T MATTER?

WHATEVER the reason you come up with I am sure ALL future cards and
implementations will work as well. I mean hey it worked before, I dont know
how, but it worked. :rolleyes2:

 

Either way, it sounds like this has been there policy all along, and not some new revelation. Historically, the upgrades seem to have worked. Thankfully we have custom builders like Mythlogic who will probably tell us for sure which will and won't work.

 

Why don`t anyone just ask sager,eurocom etc. about this?
I´m sure they give an answer if the new cards will work.

 

1. Sager - not likely to tell us as they said it's SOL and they will say it won't support it without even testing it

2. Eurocom - is likely to lie to sell parts


Those two are the last two companies you want to ask to get the right answers.

 

I`m just see that a company from germany
sell the P170EM Barebone with the GTX 675M
for 900€.
That`s maybe later the only way to get
an uptodate laptop cheaper if you use your
old parts like prozessor,ram etc.

 

I had to LOL on that one, because it simply nailed it...

 

I have always been under the impression that the only reseller selling the 6970m in W860CU/W870CU was Eurocom. They may have had a slightly custom vBIOS tough, I don't know.

 

There is absolutely no evidence for this claim as the HM-series hasn't been tested with one-generation-later card (as they haven't been released yet!).

Did you read my post? The 6970m works on the w860cu with a bios released a year earlier, than the card. They did absolutely nothing, I can assure.

As for the vBios theory, I'm running a DELL card with the DELL vBios in my Clevo, so I doubt Clevo updated it...

It has had updated bioses for the 460m and 470m. Still the, as said above, the 6970m works without any added microcode to the bios, so your claim that cards won't work without BIOS mods is false.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for seeing my point.!

This is already a proven fact. There is no hard evidence that could refute this, yet people on this thread chose to disregard this fact.

You're not proving anything yourself. You're just trying to fill holes in your theory. I'm not saying you are wrong abou the technical side, but you are wrong in saying you know that newer cards won't work.

Let me do a simple analogy (this thread needs some humour as well):

It seems like some of you are so set on these cards working. You claim that they won't work unless there is a BIOS update, because that's how the MXM-standard works with Clevo's. By your logic then I shouldn't be typing on this machine, still I am. My point is this: None of what I am saying proves that the new cards will work, and none of what you are saying proves it either.

Why is it so hard to say: "I don't know whether it will work or not"?

PS: I'll just add this one more time as people seem to be having a hard time getting this right:
Clevo did not add anything to support the 6970m in the w860cu. It works with a dell vbios and with a clevo BIOS released 1 year before the 6970m.

 

Actually, the most accurate assertion would be:
"There is no guarantee that it will work", since Clevo doesn't warrant such an upgrade nor the minimum performance increase of such upgrades at the time of purchase.
Claiming something else, regardless of the past experiences or urban legends, just feeds up a future subliminal false advertising. Why don't you speculate about the general warranty terms based on particular experiences then?

 

In the line before I stated that noone knows whether it will work or not. Of course there is no guarantee it will work. I've never said there was. I've only pointed out that there isn't a guarantee it won't work.

By the way. What are these urban legends you are talking about?

 

Let me say that I am not doubting that there are real examples of cards in the past that
have worked without any changes to the system vbios.

I am not saying that future cards will not work without vbios updates to older computer models.

What I am saying is that because something has worked in the past does not gaurentee
that it will work in the future.

When clevo announces that it will provide no additional bios updates for a particular model/
models/architecture that has significance. It doesn't necessarily mean they know of some
near term compatibilty issues but rather they don't care. They won't invest resources
to make sure their older products will work.

BTW I tried to get to the real details of the standard but nvidia controls that very tightly
and only adopters (members ) can get access. However, there are comments out there by
nvidia engineers that suggest what the mxm module needs to understand is the Thermal
( TGP ) dynamics and mechanicals ( I would assume things like Optimus, clocks, volts, ... ).

The goal being if your card matches these criteria you don't have to worry about anything
else.

Additionally another integrator mentioned that the definition for the vbios could be
defined by SKU. Which would make alot of sense because you could have one definition
for a series or at least those cards in a series which are fundamentally the same.

 

It's just a matter of how we express our ideas - we try to stay objective but all of us have personal opinions and tendency to believe in what we want to believe.

@Oan001 - You've experienced the adoption of newer gen GPUs that are not officially supported by Sager; however it was an older model than the current models so all-in-all, it can't be conclusive that the upcoming gen will work as well.

@Niffcreature -You've tested the newest Clevo shells with GPUs that were not officially supported, but the point here is that the newer(..) Fermis and the Kepler/GCNs have not been tested yet, so you can't also make the claim that the newer cards won't be supported based on what you've tested. (I do appreciate the time and effort to try the cards out, it does give us a lead but atm none of us can be sure what the next gen will bring)

@Rest of us - Let's all calm down a bit, we've expressed our opinions, which we all know are a bit skewed towards what we wish to see. There is no reason to jump on examples/anecdotes and try to attack the other's claims as the claim was valid and had a good point. We all don't know what will happen in the next generation Clevo shells.

Here's to hoping that it will be upgradeable without official support - we all want it and that's why we're all in this thread, right?

 

Indeed. If 680M is anything like its desktop namesake, it will be a beast. Let's hope Nvidia prices it sanely like the desktop card too.

 

Replies in quotes:

I'm done with this discussion. My intention was simply to point out some errors in niffcreature's argument, and to show that there have been exceptions.

I've never said that the new cards will work based on the fact that earlier models have worked out this way. My point was the opposite, we don't know either way.

Still I'm misquoted and misunderstood over and over, so I don't see a point in continuing this discussion.

 

When I was downgrading my P150HM bios from 1.14 to 1.06, in order to get full speed of my ES, the bios recognized my 6990 as 6970, and I could not install the ATi Catalyst drivers in windows, it reported unrecognized card error. It did run in VGA mode though. I had to go back to a Bios version 1.14 that was modded by PREMA (mostly for ES speed up).

 

It´s obvious that we don´t know till one tried. That one can be a hero or someone who spend several some hundred dollars for nothing .
I will be tempted to put GTX 680m SLI in the X7200 when it comes out...

It´s really not something someone can tell, because a lot of people had their own experiences, and no one can say that newer cards or laptops will work the same. So I´m with oan001 at this.

My experience with this are different, too.
The M570RU model could officially take everything up to 9800m GTX, but it DID take the GTX 260m without problems, but beeped and unlocked the GTX280m, but you could flash the GTX 260m vBios on it, and it did run.
Second:
I bought X7200 with 6970m from Hawkforce who imported it from Eurocom. The cards where ES, and the BIOS was an old one, it didn´t support yet officially the 6970m. The cards appeared simply as "AMD VGA cards" in the BIOS, but worked otherwise without problems with the BIOS. Installing drivers were no problem. After a BIOS flash that supported the 6970m officially, it did say "AMD 6970m"...

So, as you can see, ALL is possible .

 

If you read the MXM patent it is all about the customer and its needs, which is quite hypocritical. It is actually about the unification of the GPU design solutions across the ODM's. Sager resellers used to say that Clevo's are "user upgradeable" as part of their marketing. They don't claim that anymore - at least offcially - but the community effort to make the laptops upgradeable still works indirectly towards this same marketing concept. It remains to be seen if the occasional successes are not actually based on some design flexibility loopholes that Clevo will close in the future.

 

My proof is basically that they are now stopping support for newer GPUs in the HMs. If they are stopping then they had to have been doing SOMETHING in the first place.
Which is why its my impression that the 6970m wouldn't work if Clevo didn't do SOMETHING. I wouldn't be surprised if Clevo had a way to support 6970m far before it was released. ODMs work closely with AMD and Nvidia. Perhaps Nvidia waits longer before finalizing what exactly needed to be supported for the 470m.

Forget the 6970m part, just think about the fact that clevo has been doing that something to help with GPU support and now they aren't doing it for the HMs. That will not go without repercussions, mark my words...

 

Well you made me do another post to this thread, even though I said I was done.

I really can't believe what i am reading...

1. You are saying that the fact that they are now stopping support for newer GPUs in the HMs proves that clevo did "something" to get the 6970m working.

2. This "fact", you say, goes to prove that Clevo has been doing "something" to help with GPU support and now they aren't doing it for the HMs.

Here's what I think about this:

1. This isn't proof, it's circular reasoning. They didn't do anything to support it, unless they knew the 6970m was coming a year before it was released, and about 8 months before the desktop 6850 which it is based on was released. This was in my post which you quoted, but I guess you chose to disregard it.

You argue they must have done "something" because otherwise it wouldn't work. As Kevin said earlier, you're welcome to put forth any substantial evidence to support your claim, as I have provided evidence against it. I would love to find out what that "something" they did was, as it certainly wasn't part of the BIOS, or the vBIOS for that matter. Perhaps it was magic, what do I know.

2. I really should forget about the 6970m, and this whole thread. But it is still the weak point in your reasoning, as you've failed to give any evidence in support of your claim that clevo added support for it. Yet you still go on to say this as a fact, spreading unsubstantiated rumors, so I felt the urge to write this anyway.

You are right to say that clevo has been doing that "something" to help with GPU support - they have released BIOS-updates to systems that were still in production/sale. But in some cases, like the 6970m they haven't. They didn't support upgrades for products that were EOL in the past, and they're not doing it now. They are not doing anything different from the W-series to the HMs. Therefore, using simple logic we cannot conclude that cards released after the HM has it's final BIOS-update won't work, because, as far as we know, absolutely nothing has changed. We cannot conclude in the other direction either, we will just have to wait and see.

Agree?

 

Dude, this has been said about 100 times in this thread. They always do this with every generation of notebooks. They provide bios updates until the new model is released, then they stop updating the bios for the old ones. Yes, it's new that they aren't supporting the HM's anymore, but it still follows the same trend that has existed for a long time.

 

I think I'm going to close this thread, going down the path to la-la land with no concrete results - and can't get any results because it's all speculation at this point.

I'll ask mythlogic about the results when they get these cards to test them in older shells to see if they work or not, until then this thread has served its discussion purpose.