Official Disclosure of my Very Bad Experience with Eurocom

Initially I wasn't going to write this because I had been told to *hush* by the president of Eurocom...but I've decided to disclose pretty much everything about my experience with them...and in particular with the president of this company.

This is a complex complaint that involves Customer Service issues (Inappropriate Behavior by Company President), Product issues (Incorrect Product Received), Sales Practice issues (Used Dishonest Sales Practices and High Pressure Methods), and Contract issue (Failure to Honor Written Agreement).

OK so here it goes...

I recently purchased a notebook computer from Eurocom after negotiating with company president. I found out about this company thru the website notebookreview.com, which is a great community of notebook enthusiasts. While I had been cautioned about this company, I wanted to shop here because they are the only Canadian reseller of Clevo laptops, and because I had been told that despite very poor customer service, they have been known to match their US competition in Canadian dollars IF one speaks to the "right person" and mentions the importance of buying in Canada.

I originally tried to get a better deal than what they advertise thru JS, but he could not price match. I then tried thru 2 other salespeople but they also told me they could not lower the price. Finally, someone on the forums said to talk to the company representative, who happens to be the company president. This is what I did and sure enough, this company was immediately able to price match, slashing the cost down substantially from what they advertise on their website. And a note on this...it seems they are misleading shoppers by making them pay for components that are already built-in for these Clevo models. One only needs to look at the other resellers' sites. This is a sneaky tactic to get people to pay more by hiding from them that these components are actually built-in.

Once I got confirmation from him that he would match the price is CDN dollars, I still needed to decide on the screen resolution, something I had to see in person. So I travelled to Ottawa (4hr drive one-way) in order to compare screen resolutions. The first time ended up being a waste of time because despite me calling in advance to make sure they had the models on display in the showroom, when I got there they did NOT have the specs I wanted to compare. Those laptops had been borrowed for the weekend by staff. So I had to come back a second time and this time I spoke directly to him to make sure he would have on display exactly what I wanted to try out. And thankfully, he did. But the experience left me feeling uneasy. He was very insistent that I purchase the system with the most expensive specs (highest screen res) despite my eye-strain concerns. He hardly gave me any time to play around with the computers and also was very pushy at closing the deal on the spot, and thru many of our communications. This made me feel uncomfortable but I wanted the best price so I accepted this. Another thing which bothered me is that another associate had told me if they were ever doing presentations in my city, that they could lend me one overnight to try out. But when I asked him about it, he said that was just for corporations. Again, one person says one thing, another person says another. Seems like both the price and the lending policies are dependent on who you talk to, or how BIG of a customer you are.

OK, that was just background. The REAL COMPLAINTS are these...

1. When I said I told him I had decided on the lower screen resolution (WSXGA), he told me there were none left in stock. When I told him that this changed everything because I really needed this display, he emailed me saying that his inventory now showed 1 left. Seems he tried to pressure me to purchase the most expensive one by telling me that I HAD to take that screen, but when I became hesitant to buy from him, all of a sudden he found the screen I wanted.

2. Having opted for the lower resolution screen (which he mysteriously found), I sent him the full payment for the agreed amount in CDN dollars – as outlined in his email. After I had paid, he emailed me saying that I still owed him money because I was supposed to pay in US$. At this point he said I had to either cough up a few hundred dollars more or they would send me a downgraded system.

3. Not wanting to downgrade the specs on my new machine but feeling cornered by a dishonest salesman, I offered to send him an extra $105 for the highest screen resolution (the one he was pushing me to buy) so that he would be OK and ship out my system with the specs I wanted. He agreed but to this day, I feel that was a manipulative tactic on his behalf. After my payment, he made sure to tell me that his company has suffered a financial loss because of me!

4. When I placed my order, I asked him to MAKE SURE that the exact parts I ordered would be in the laptop, because some other customers on this forum had reported that they had gotten ripped off because they had received their laptops with cheaper components than the ones ordered. And as luck would have it, there was a serious error with my laptop. Upon inspecting the specs in Windows Vista, I noticed I was given a cheaper graphics card – not at all what I ordered and paid for. When I brought this to his attention, he tried to make me believe that the card that I received was a much better card. He didn’t fool me because I know my stuff (the one I ordered had more shaders etc..).... but the fact that he tried to deceive me again was upsetting.

5. Upon receiving my laptop, the first thing I noticed was that the chassis had been improperly snapped back into position (the audio jacks in the front were completely obstructed by a part of the chassis – which I was able to snap back into position but which to this day remains noticeably crooked). I then noticed a screw that had been left between some keys on the numeric keypad. But the worst, which almost defeats the purpose of buying a laptop, was that I could not install the battery. And the reason was because the technician who assembled this machine had used the wrong screws, which were too long and therefore prevented the battery from laying flat in its bed. (These pictures are posted in a previous thread.). Finally, upon my subsequent visit to have all these things repaired, a wonderful technician (yes they have one by the name of A. who is super nice), noticed that I was missing a rubber lid on my SD card slot. I said "Missing? I never got one!". He was surprised my computer had been shipped without one. Me too. But I must say I felt that he cared. He did the repairs, gave me a hat and a mini laptop mouse for my troubles, and properly cleaned the vents underneath the laptop. How I wish HE had been the one to assemble my computer... alas.

6. Ok, so after I brought the product issues to his attention, a few things happened. First he told me to bring it back immediately (despite his knowledge that I don’t live in that city). I could not bring it back immediately – I would have to ship it and wait...or make the 4 hour drive again (times 2) and have them take care of it on the spot. Second, he told me that it was my fault because I had tried to bargain so low that that’s what I get for trying to do so. There was no offer to ship at their cost or to pay my travel costs for something that was clearly their mistake. There was no genuine apology. In fact, he also told me to keep quiet about my negative experience with Eurocom or else to return the laptop for refund. Wow, all of a sudden I am being ordered by the merchant to not tell about my experience? I am an avid user of notebookreview.com forums and I think that people have a right to know what they can expect if they deal with Eurocom. Anyway, the worst wasn’t over yet...

7. Out of the blue I received an email from the company PRESIDENT, telling me that he was going to fire the technician who assembled my laptop, saying that I had helped him identify people who don’t deserve to work at Eurocom. He said it was because of me that he would be fired and gave me his name. He also told me that I could now post on forums that my order had helped Eurocom ‘s quality by firing one of their technicians and offered to send me the technician’s picture so I could post it. ?! This kind of behaviour is highly inappropriate from a company president in my opinion. First, it is not my fault that the wrong graphics card was installed. Second, it is not my fault that the machine was misassembled. Third, I have a right of expression – this is Canada. Fourth, that technician NEVER got fired ( I checked when I brought in my system for repairs). Well, good for him, but shame on Eurocom’s president for lying to me so that I would feel bad for the guy.

And just to conclude, when I did bring the system in for repairs a few weeks ago, he did not come out to see me or address my concerns. I’m not saying that this is what I was hoping for, but honestly, if I ran a business and had created a very negative experience for my customer (willingly or not), especially to this extent, I would have taken the time to come and see him and try to win his business again...Again, it would seem that Eurocom does not care about its customers...unless they are big $$$ corporations. In my opinion, they shouldn't sell to individuals anymore.

Hopefully my review will make you think twice about purchasing from Eurocom. By all means get a Clevo - they're amazing machines - just dont buy it there....unless you're willing to pay too much for your system. I'm guessing if you dont try to price match and just accept their overpriced systems, you will be treated ok.

Good luck!

I've included a few quotes here from emails I got from company representative, for those who require proof...as for pictures of assembly issues, please see other threads.

********************
This is what happen when we try to offer you pricing below our cost - you get below the cost quality. We have new technician in production that prepared your system so I guess he cut corners too.

********************

I would appreciate if you could stop creating public noise about this single case. Otherwise please return your notebook for full refund.

********************

If there are so many errors with your system - we don't have choice but to fire our production technician on your behalf. Our quality should be PERFECT.

********************

So now you can post on forums that your order is helping Eurocom to improve quality by helping Eurocom to fire one of their technicians. Would you like me to email you picture of ****** so you can post this too? Thank you for helping us to identify people at Eurocom that don't deserve to be here.

********************

 

Huh. Good thing I went with Xotic. Was going to buy from Eurocom, but when I realized I had to pay 100 bucks for the damn wireless receiver, that was it. I also spoke with John Shore when I tried to "price match". Needless to say the experience was less than satisfactory, and the discount he offered was peanuts. Hoped your laptop is working fine...sigh, too bad. We need some good Canadian competition up here in terms of Clevo resellers...

 

Geez... I'm lost for words.

 

Seems like it was quite the ordeal, completely contrary to my experience with them.

 

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. The main thing I've heard about them is that they are way overpriced. Nice to know what kind of people run that business. Caveat Emptor!

 

Yea I almost ordered from them, went with xotic
theres aeisolutions aswell which is canadian with good reviews, but they're barebones and dont have the w860cu

 

So for the second time you have yet to learn your lesson?

 

yay I didnt have to learn mine!

 

Damn.. I would suggest everyone thinking about buying from Eurocom take a GOOD look at this thread. I have seen many of the complaints of metrosuperstar showing up in other threads. You don't often have a chance of catching a bad experience like that. Most of the time, legal issues prevent people from posting on here or they get bought out to not say anything.

Well the quotes sure are quite unprofessionnal, even without seeing the first messages behind it.

 

That's sickening, honestly, Eurocom preys on customers ( prays for! more like ) that don't know their hardware apparently. I went to just about every major Clevo resellers' sites and found that AVA direct and Eurocom were the highest. AVA seemed to be a little higher due to having the OS installed and stuff, but Eurocom's prices are basically ghost parts that are already in the laptop! It's just a cut and dry example of shoddy/scandalous business practices that I have seen in the past.

Most of the time, especially smaller business, these practices tend to work themselves out. They will lose all of their potential repeat customers, who will all go to someone who cares like Xoticpc, PCtorque and AVAdirect; with whom I spoke to and got prompt emails back about questions! PcTorque even emailed me during non-business hours, which pretty much sold me on them. I now own a flawless 9280, that came to my door within 6 days of putting my order in! So PcTorque is great in my book.

Honestly OP, Eurocom's shady business practices will catch up, because it's just one more sketch business who makes goals for retirement for 5 years from now. What they don't know is, they won't ever retire because orders will degrade so much from overcharging and hassling customers that they won't have a business in 5 years!

 

Off topic here, how's the 9280? i just ordered a 8690

 

It's amazing...although I was going to get the 8690 ( funny you asked ) and was given a loan to get the 9280. Honestly though, I would have been fine with the 8690 since it has the same video card. The only other thing that bothered me about the 8690 was the 16:9 aspect ratio. Now I can't really build a desktop and justify it... otherwise with the 8690 I could have built an i7 desktop, overclocked it, put a couple 5850's in it and had a mostly portable 15 inch notebook with a well balanced hardware set. Now I have an overkill CPU end, with a somewhat weak ( compared to CPU ) video card
But honestly I can upgrade my GTX280m in a few years after the 5870 series comes out hopefully and still be able to keep this i7.
But man...this 9280 is just crazy, it's beyond fast at everything, and with some SSD's it would be wrong! But you made a good decision on the 8690.
Ok sorry guys, back on topic as usual.
Eurocom is doomed as long as company representative is it's leader. Simple as that, unfortunately, more and more business owners think in the short-term : Hmm, if I screw people for 5 years and make a few million I can just cut and leave! Instead of the old good outlook : If I work hard for 30 years, and keep a good repeat customer base, maybe I can retire.

 

KK one last time off topic
Im jewish dont really believe i heaven and hell- jesus was a jew btw!
And yea, the company representative could also barley speak english, at one point he said weve processed the order please pay the agreed ammount xxxx which wsa over $300 over what we agreed to.

 

I've got an order with Eurocom too (only a gtx280m vga tho), communication was really easy and fast with the company representative, I hope everything will go well

 

Really? I checked with BBB and they had no complaints on record... when did you file?

And BTW, Eurocom is obviously checking this forum because I had a personal email from him this morning saying:


Thank you for your excellent postings on notebookreview forums. If you are unhappy with our products and service please return your product back to us for refund. I am going to take proper legal action for damages. We are passing this case to our lawyer to take proper action.

and then....

you are causing hate and/or spreading hate - see reference to Serbia - is very serious STUFF in Canada and everywhere else

Serbia? Excuse me? What does Serbia have to do with this???

After this message, you can be sure I am going to file to BBB and resellerratings.com. This guy takes no responsibility for his e-hem, mistakes, or improper behavior. Can you believe that? He wants to take legal action against me - a small fry who bought a laptop from him for $2000. Just more bullying from someone who cannot admit his fault on at least 7 points (see first post) - and more proof that its all about money for him. Like really, I didnt fabricate anything so whats he going to come after? With the paper trail I have, he cant win. He'd better just leave me alone and accept that he's not suited to sell to individuals because he lacks professionalism and human relationship skills.

Seriously, I thought the internet was a place of expression and I simply exposed his practices. If anybody thinks I am spreading hate here, that is NOT my intention and I will remove my thread. I dont know the company representative as a person so maybe hes a great guy in other areas of his life. But professionally he's totally misconducting himself and I am merely sharing my unbiased experience with other users. This is not hate propaganda. And just to be more ethical about it, I've edited my original post so that the name of this company president does not appear.

 

Eurocom is a big business, and ppl run that too and ppl can make mistakes, every big company have buyers who are disapointed for something, even Sager.

"maybe this stuff flies in Serbia"
So you say ppl in Eastern-Europe are dishonest, devious and sneaky?


If you are so unhappy with them, just ask for that refund ...

 

So why aren't you returning it for the full refund he's offering? Threatening to file with the BBB, when he's offering you the money back on multiple occasions, is a stupid business decision.

 

Why would I return a laptop I am happy with?
The problem is not with the Clevo machine. Its a great machine (now that I had them reassemble it to the way it should have arrived in the first place.)
And no I think filing with BBB is a great decision - thats why they exist. To ensure proper business practices.

 

Didn't you know the best way to get more customers is to sue your existing customers? duh!

 

Threatening your customer just because he posts an unfavorable review is completely outside the realm of ethical business practices.

I've seen negative reviews of XoticPC and others but do they threaten legal action? Of course not...

Its just part of life that some users have good experiences while others do not! Most businesses accept this when they "get into business". Its part of the game.

I think company representative is taking this waaaaayyyyy too far!

 

I just don't see why you would want to have any further dealings with a company you hold in such low regard.

Get the money and dip.

 

Thats a good point Jack, but I think you're missing the point, which is.... I did NOT want to have further dealings with Eurocom.

I posted my review of Eurocom and they came after me. Trust me, I was quite alright just sharing my experience and moving on. Whats with a company coming after me all of a sudden because I report my unbiased experience? Thats totally wrong, in my opinion.

 

I know, just so... short-sighted.



The image of Eurocom, in my mind is going down the drain. I didn't used to mind them what so ever, other than the fact they charges of everything - e.g. didn't offer Wifi card as standard, like others do.

So far from OP's side of story, this guy at Eurocom acted in such unprofessionally way I'd think wasn't possible. Getting treated like c**p after spending $2000 is just ridiculous.

A decent reseller IMO would genuinely help the customers’ need, certainly not to exploit their informational advantage, not to trouble, mis-inform, and certainly not threaten the customers. These machines aren't cheap; put it simply, the right thing to do, is to satisfy the buyer with the price and spec as agreed, while providing after sale services in helpful manner if needed - that's what we take for granted, as most resellers DO behave very responsibly. After all they DO depend on every person who buys their system, to be sustainable.

Unlike Dell, Hp, and other larger manufactures, most of these reseller don't have resources to design, and to over-see the whole process, of bringing a laptop to the market; since so, they have to build their brand far more, especially consider there are quite a number of Sager resellers around. Most do have pretty solid relationship with the buyers. Even Sager is not that well known to potential buyers, the last thing they want is bunch of bad comments on the brand.

Like said, its not all business neither, a happy buyer is by far more likely to make repeat purchase from same ppl, and even recommending it to others. Pretty much free press is what you get, for doing business decently in this context, it doesn't cost them much more - but it will make ppl feel better, which is damn important.

Also for disliked them somewhat, for their higher website price. While it’s pretty common for Eurocom to offer price match/ discounts if you asked; after reading this, I’m not even going to try that, cos of the corners they could cut. Over here in the UK, we’ve Rock, Novatech, etc. The latter does some killer deals towards the end of a product cycle too, so not much reason to buy from Canada.

 

Well said Quicklite !!!!

 

all of us have bad experiences in our lives dealing with others but our we PERFECT ourselves? When pushing vendors to get MORE for LESS you would ALWAYS GET LESS.

 

Well well... look who has joined us in the forums with his first post ever? lol - that writing style and english is unmistakeable. Not to mention the capitalizing of the word PERFECT just as in your emails, and selecting a username of Panther911 - your biggest profit machine, which you tried to make me buy?
You are sneaky but not very bright.

And for the record company representative...perfection and Serbia have nothing to do with "price matching" and good customer service. If I go to BestBuy to have them price match a competitor, I will NOT be getting less. Try it sometime. You might learn something.

Your attitude is wrong and now everyone knows that if you lower the price for them, that you will cut corners because this is your mentality. You believe they should get less. Thanks for indirectly admitting that you intentionally cut corners to give me less in your apparent "price match" (cheaper video card, adding additional charges after I had made my payment on the agreed terms, etc.)

You're sinking yourself more and more..

 

Yep, and when we are getting something for one price at one place, we aretold we can get the same price somewhere else, we expect the same quality

 

Canadian IP.

 

Thanks Soviet. I didnt doubt it for one second. lol

 

lol he doesn't know when to shut his mouth. AND he has no basis for legal action against you, this guy is obviously fresh off the boat, he doesn't even understand how the law works here in Canada, let alone speak english. The only one in legal trouble is him, and there is nothing illegal you have done, this guy just keeps digging himself a deeper hole every time he talks. As for the BBB, I filed my complaint a long time ago, they should have it on record, and if they don't I don't understand why. I still have the original copies of the emails and letters I sent them, I'll send them again and file the report over again if need be.

As for him, he is just a fool, and it's obvious he is feeling scared now that the biggest laptop reviewer site with the biggest reach, knows he is a total liar and shady businessman. I'm tired of this guy, ripping people off left and right.

I said, maybe this stuff flies in Serbia, or where ever the hell he is from, but not here. Meaning, this guy clearly doesn't understand how to behave himself or run a company here in Canada, so perhaps this type of behavior is ok where he is from. Hence why he is under the false impression he can pull that BS here in my country.

Show me the quote where I said Eastern Europeans are dishonest, devious and sneaky.

 

Sorry to hear about your experiences, John Shore was most helpful with me and because of their 5% student discount and price matching options I was able to get it cheaper than Xotic or PNB. I actually like that they will take parts out for you to save money. Don't want a webcam? Want $49? Opt out of the webcam (I wanted it but still). Yes their initial website pricing is extremely overpriced but I really don't care about the sucker who ends up paying it because they give discounts to people who know what they are doing (if you pay +$800 for a GPU upgrade thats your own fault).

Also a 4 hour drive there and back is like $50 in gas/fast food so what are you really saving at the end of the day?

edit (as i read the thread):

/facepalm , i wonder who this is? that is the WORST mentality to have as a business person.

 

So can we unsticky PCMW and sticky Eurocom now?

 

That's a very good idea lol.

 

This is funny, because I've had nothing but good experiences with EuroCom, especially the mentioned company representative.

 

That's funny. You praise the company but then criticize the quoted comment which was made by Eurocom's prez.

 

fixed. I have never dealt with anyone else at Eurocom other than a technician who was very nice in vocally helping me install the $35 intel 5100 wifi card I bought off ebay.

The reseller could be run by a washing machine for all I know but at the end of the day I dealt with two very nice people who spoke english just fine, gave me the cheapest price, and sold me a CLEVO product which is all I really care about.

Also to be fair we don't really know who posted that comment.

 

If so, there are A LOT of suckers in the world, and if you bought something you didn't know much about and someone charged you extra, that would not make you mad? They're " suckers " because they don't know hardware as well as others, then you have the same outlook on people as he does " survival of the fittest". If I do work for a customer, I tell them what is wrong, what needs to be replaced, and how much it will cost. They depend on me to be honest, but I could easily say it was triple the amount and pocket the extra cash..but I wouldn't be around long like that. Not only that, the company representative lied and said the video card was a better model, which is just basically preying on " suckers ".
They take parts out of the laptops so they can make an extra $100-200 and make people pay for stuff that is already in XoticPc, PcTorque's laptops. That's not doing anyone a favor.
I understand your point in the way you're seeing it, you got a good deal, you had no problems, that's fine. But what if you had the problems, and what if you didn't get those deals? I'm just putting myself in their shoes, because at some point in my life, someone has tried to deceive me during a business proposal too. I should do an experiment, I should try to buy a laptop from that company representative himself, and see if he treats me the same way... I just might.

 

When I first call I try to get a good deal but they didn't want to budge. So I move to the next person which was this company rep and he price match everything and got a far better system then other competitor for the same price. What I'm saying is that keep trying eventually they will cave.... I hope lol.
Well they cave for me...

 

Sorry to hear about your negative experience. It's quite shocking to hear this as I am another person who received great service while dealing with Eurocom. Luckily I only dealt with John Shore who was a great help in my purchase process. I was able to get decent discounts (approx. 15% off) for trading in my old laptop (an Acer TM3200 with a busted videocard, and cracked chasis) as well as the configuration options. I actually opted out of getting the webcam (sub $49), but received one with a webcam anyways, lol!

The way you were treated is atrocious, and will definitely affect any future business Eurocom would have received from me. Eurocom must underestimate the influence notebookreviews.com has on buyers, because without this website I never would have even found out about Eurocom! I think an official apology is in order for them to clear up this mess, and hopefully try to regain some of the confidence buyers have lost in their company.

 

The thing is, he and the owner/salesman agreed on a price for a specific build and the customer got less than what was agreed upon. The owner/salesman did not have to agree to the price.

 

The reason you got a web cam anyway is because the Clevo chasis you ordered is naturally supposed to come with one. That's just an example of how Eurocom illegally rip people off on a regular basis, by charging you for something you would get standard, regardless if you order it or not. If you ordered the web cam you would have just put an extra 49 bucks in company representatives's pocket, not to mention the cash from the other extras you might have already paid for that you shouldn't have because they come with the laptop.

And this mess can't be cleared up by an apology, only by giving back every penny Eurocom has stolen from every customer it's ever done business with, will it ever be even remotely close to cleaning the mess they made for themselves, then they need to learn how to behave like businessmen and human beings, and with the lack of morals the president and leader of the company has, it will surely be downhill for them no matter what they do. I will never buy from them again, and any time I hear of someone who is, I will tell them about the president of the company and the company itself, and strongly urge them to go to someone else.

 

Wow, I almost ordered, would've had to started a law suit

 

Why in the world would he want to come on this thread and keep it going instead of letting it blow over?

Seriously?? You actually admit to this??

 

Some people have problems separating their individual emotions when it comes to business. Sounds like heis more concerned about appearing to be "innocent", rather than help his company's reputation.

I agree though (assuming you were sarcastic, which I think is a safe bet ), the only way to possibly salvage this PR nightmare is to come on the forums and address this publicly. Apologize, and offer a satisfactory (if not generous) solution at this point. Otherwise for the foreseeable future anyone who asks anything about Eurocom is going to be sent a link to this thread.

 

You know nothing of the legal system, do you?

 

Oops, my bad, I thought it was illegal in Canada to knowingly mislead the public, and customers in order to make monetary gain, yeah I guess I know nothing about the law in my civilized country.

And when did you immigrate to Canada sir?

 

The seller has made no misrepresentations about the goods in existence. There is also no reason to believe Eurocom could not remove the webcam if it truly wanted to. Therefore the Caveat Emptor principle applies. Since no express term was stated by said customer about the particular quality he/she requires there is no admissible legal action that can be taken against the offeror in that regard. Also I highly doubt missing screws would constitute a breach of the implied terms of merchantable quality expressed in the Sale of Goods Act. The buyer is free to reject the additional quantity of goods (webcam), their right to do so exists whether a greater or lesser value is delivered. If the buyer chooses to keep the (webcam), they must pay for what was agreed to at the contract rate.

 

The company representative clearly made an attempt to mislead his customer for monetary gain when he told him the wrong video card he knowingly put in the laptop (which was a lesser model than the one the customer ordered) was more powerful when in fact it was not. That is illegal, and if you did some digging you would probably find that the web cam on these specific Clevo models are shipped with the web cam standard from Clevo to it's resellers to be sold with it, minus the core parts the customer will order.

There is no denying the law was knowingly circumvented on at least one, if not several occasions, with several different customers.

 

there are always 2 sides to each story - so far we are getting one side nly and accussing someone that we don't even know. I am unhappy with my sales rep at Ford and could write 10 pages about him if not more. But his story may be completely different.

 

Closing the thread. If posters would like to discuss the legalities of fair business, it can be done in its own thread.