P1xxSM User Manual Posted!

Agreed, in one of the "which laptop should I buy" threads another user compared Clevos to a Corvette, but I said I consider them to be more like a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo or Subaru WRX IMO.

 

Well, I will wait to see what Haswell model MSI announces. Maybe will finally make a switch, especially if they'll make a decent 15-incher.

 

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised

 

No of course you are entitled to flawless sound, like not having to deal with the electrical noise. But for better bass and better sound quality though, can`t get everything on a notebook that cost $600 less than MSI. After all, GT70 have the best sound system on all current notebooks: Dynaudio

You are wrong on the cooling solution on the MSI though. Your Clevo makes more noise than my MSI. It might be better temperature wise but I don`t have any high temperatures on mine either. Its just one fan, but its a pretty beefy one. One perk with MSI is that you can access the EC firmware and program the fan to run on whatever speed you want on this and that temperature. That is something Clevo can`t offer

 

Man, I was set on the Sager 15" model and you have to go and say this... I haven't heard a peep about the MSI Haswell refreshes.

 

Everything is under NDA at this point so I can't say much but I'm really looking forward to the next gen for sure.

 

I have to strongly disagree with anyone who says Clevo shouldn't priorities good speakers. These are luxury products, and having one of the main components be so mediocre should be universally deemed unacceptable.

Even though I mainly use a FiiO E17 and expensive headphones, there come times when I need or want to let the system play out loud, and my first thought shouldn't be one of utter disappointment.

We deserve better.

 

Looks like the sub on the alternative 15" inch is a slightly different shape.

 

If anything speaker quality could be an upgrade and a decision that the buyer makes at the time of purchase. I would rather have adequate speakers and not sacrifice size/weight, cooling/airflow, or space for other hardware. Mainly because I will have my laptop hooked up to an external amp when I game. I will agree that the internal sound components should be of decent quality so the signal is noise free and crisp though.

Like I said above, I hear these gripes with not only laptops but also LED TVs and monitors. Honestly wouldn't it be a little corny (and probably costly) to see a nice slim flat screen TV with massive speakers and an internal subwoofer? Nowadays the focus is on making technology smaller, lighter, and more portable. Adding high quality speakers would only go against that philosophy and would almost certainly force them to compromise some other component. I would rather pay a premium for hardware performance in any of those devices and consider on board sound a secondary spec (as long as the signal is clear and can be amplified externally).

IMO the sound and speaker quality of my W350ETQ is better than adequate, but everyone's needs are different. Undoubtedly the cost of raising the quality of the on board speakers will ultimately fall on us, and many of us may not put a premium on it. I would rather invest in sound performance separately, and on equipment that can be used with several different devices instead of being limited to only the notebook. I belive that most manufacturers realize that some buyers would rather upgrade the sound externally, so they focus on other selling points. I say make it an upgrade and the decision of the buyer whether they want Bose speakers and a subwoofer instead of an extra HD or mSATA bay.

 

I was pretty set on Sager/Clevo around July/August, but my interest is piqued... never bought MSi before.

 

Thanks for the tip Derek, I'll be keeping my eye on the MSI forums. I know y'all are under NDA's so I guess I just have to wait for someone else to leak information about these.

 

Well definitely keep an eye out the next few months. Every system suggestion is different and depends on the unique requirements of the individual, but MSI has always been a very close second in my books and very interested in how the next gen holds up. Get in touch with me via email, phone, or chat once some more details become available and I can help hash everything out.

Same goes for you!

 

Anyone with access to both MSI and Sager machines try swapping MSI speakers into a Sager? I can't imagine they'd interface differently or that their omh and watt ratings would be that different.. I'm sure there would be some modifications to get them to fit, but I wonder if they'd sound drastically better or if the machine is completely limited by the audio controller..

 

Clevo speakers sound badly mainly because case resonates. You need to heavily mod the case to eliminate this. Also I believe MSI speakers are a bit bigger, they won't fit into clevo chassis.

 

The audio output in general is bad because of the arrangement of the DAC.

 

The more I hear about the EM series the more I wonder what happened to the D900F and P1xxHM quality laptops T-T. Here's hoping SM fixes it!

 

Seek advice from a acoustic engineer................. and then keep dreaming......

- sounds requires space, empty space to reverberate around in (in a controlled fashion, regulated by the driver), the bigger the space the deeper/bigger the sound, A laptop by nature is supposed to be compact so you can "try" but you can't deny physics.

I could see how in a 17" model, they could use the 15" motherboard, and use the extra case space as speaker enclosures - this would improve sound, plus you have the 17" screen, so it all adds up to the "media" category - I'd probably consider this if it were done right over a 15" despite me not liking 17" form factors

have you considered daisy chaining a few of these (£60 a piece for the bluetooth versions, £15 for the regular version - you can buy 4 of the regulars and add them all together for a pretty huge sound - you'd have to have seen one of these in action to believe it, they're incredible !!)

XMI X-mini KAI Bluetooth Capsule Speaker for iPhone/iPad/iPod/MP3/Laptop - Black: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

 

On another note,

where are the more affordable AMD graphics cards in that list.......... nothing against Nvidia, I prefer them from a performance point, - I like Ferrari's too but when a Nissain GTR is half the price and just as quick.................

 

They weren't disclosed and thus weren't listed yet, I believe. They will come with AMD options, I assure you. It's just to hope that AMD actually shows some semblance of caring with drivers and technologies this time around. I don't deny their power, but waiting until over 2/3 the life cycle of your product is up before fixing fundamental issues is really unacceptable.

 

This is so true. There is only so much that manufacturers can offer for depth of sound when it is limited to a confined piece of hardware. That and larger speakers and the addition of a subwoofer will only force them to sacrifice some other area of performance. With that in mind I would rather not take a performance (or cooling) hit and just plug the notebook into an external amplifier. I know Bose offers some pretty amazing technology when it comes to the size of the speakers, but they rely on the subwoofer to reproduce the entire spectrum of sound. A subwoofer in a notebook is a waste of space and will only add extra weight. IMO good quality sound is better achieved through an external investment.

Besides most of us here are gamers so wouldn't you rather position your speakers externally so you can experience stereo surround sound to improve your experience? Two small speakers positioned directly in front of you are not going to help you distinguish sounds coming from the left or right (or behind you). In almost any 3D game location of sound helps you to identify where the enemy is (Any FPS, Resident Evil, and Metal Gear titles for example). Even expensive headsets can simulate 7.1 surround sound and provide a more realistic experience. I just don't get the infatuation with the quality of the on board speakers. If you want to game or listen to music they just won't cut it, regardless of what Clevo sticks in there. I am just saying that we are better off choosing (or investing) in our own secondary system instead of paying a premium that many of us won't use anyways.

 

You don't even need expensive headsets. My sub-$100 logitech G930 is 7.1 and wireless. The G35 wired one is cheaper and the Siberia V2s are ~$80 if I remember correctly. Then you got Corsair Vengeance 1500s and 2000s (latter is wireless) that also go up to 7.1 audio. They're all USB and as such run on their own sound card and produce nice audio without all the whine you wish to avoid.

Just my two cents on not needing very expensive headsets to get good 7.1 audio out of them.

 

Yeah, I'm also a fan of the 7970m and will soon be owning one (with Haswell maybe?), but this was truly unacceptable and obviously rushed. Not a nice way to treat your customers at all.

I don't think the next gen architecture will be out till 2014 (same as Nvidia) unless they have a "refresh" and just rename everything, (same as Nvidia is doing with the 700 range) so I'd guess we'll be waiting a while to see AMD included......... unless this is clue to some refreshes of the GCN in the very near future..... I see some mid/low end 8000 GCN chips have been released

 

Further to D2 Ultima, I find most quality headphones sit to heavy on my head, and hurt my hears a bit after about a hour, maybe half?

but still.....

I'd really question why anyone would play any game without headphones, I can hear a twig snap behind me 20 meters away in Battlefield 3 online

I find my little PX-200i can block out external sounds, while delivering me the high fidelity, crisp clear snappy sound while delivering deep rich bass, any they're so light I don't feel them on my head, or pressing on my ears (I've also got some PX-100's and upgraded them to the 200's leather ear pads! winner! they're even lighter)

I got the PX100's years ago for about £15 and the leather PX-200 ear cups where about £3.50 and I was so happy with this setup I couldn't NOT buy the PX-200 which offer a closed cup and slightly lower frequency response (the quality and bass is immense, forget size)

 

Well my G930 is actually quite light. My plantronics gamecom 377 was heavier and larger, and to be quite frank, sucked about 10 times more. Using Sitrep Pro in MW3 when using my plantronics was worse than not using Sitrep or Dead Silence and simply having my G930. It's that large a difference.

Not sure about any other of the headsets I called out though. I can only cite the weight and feel of that plantronics, the Microsoft Lifechat 3000 and the Logitech G930 (and G35 by extension, since they're the same headset save for the former being wireless).

 

People, you all miss the point. If it takes only 30$ to procure decent sound solution, such should be included inside laptop in first place. Its like 1.5% price increase, what's the point on saving on it?
And don't say rubbish that its impossible to make good speakers for laptop. MSI and Toshiba somehow manage so (even on 15-inchers). Even when non-full-range, they sound tons better than these "Onkyos" branded that Clevo uses.

 

It's not always down to the engineers unfortunately, often it comes down to a fixed price point or the penny pinchers jump in.

Saw a teardown of a samsung TV, lovely design inside, all well thought out and constructed but it was notorious for failing because the caps that had been used were sub par and saved cents per unit.

 

You would be SURPRISED what an extra $30 per unit can do to someone calling the shots for the money. Trust me on this one.

 

Well, maybe they should include it as optional mini-board then.
"Want good internal sound card? $30 extra in configurator!"

But then they will suddenly realize that everybody just pays $30 and suggesting "bad sound, but save 30$" option was stupid in the first place

 

Well for people who only use headsets or USB sound devices, the better internal sound is almost worthless. But I still do agree that whining and noise along the audio should not be heard. I never (to my knowledge) heard it in my D900F, so I can understand if audio sounds distorted sometimes I'd hate it. Just remember that an audiophile's ears are different than a casual.

That being said I STILL don't know what they sound like. The P370EM wasn't so bad with sound people say, and I plan to get that or its successor later, so we'll just have to wait for the SM refresh and see.

 

I sold my 170em after 1 month because of the sound, and decided to keep and upgrade my MSI.

Hope they won't do the same mistake again. I want and need a really good sound with internal speakers.

 

Wow, it is really that bad huh? Either it is confined to your model, or you have a hardware malfunction. I am totally content with the sound quality produced by my W350. The speakers are of course another story, but they do their job for web browsing, watching YouTube videos, etc.

I also agree with Meaker that it is almost never the sole decision of the engineers. The bean counters always have the final say. Only console manufacturers will release hardware that they will initially lose money producing, because they make it back selling software. But they are all driven to come in under a market price.

 

Hopefully the have changed it this time, it's a simple fix to not drive the audio output from the DAC and have an amp stage.

 

I just want to chime in since I'm seriously considering among the P1xxSM models for my next notebook purchase.

In premium notebooks, such as the Clevos, having audio components of a higher standard should definitely be considered by the manufacturer; however, I don't consider it a priority over other features. It's not going to break down my decision to purchase one if the onboard audio solution described in this thread isn't improved over the previous generation. I consider myself an audiophile and this is how I approach the issue. I own a computer audiophile pocket server design I built with a NAS that I use for music. I've tempered my hardware and software for asynchronous connection to my own discriminating standards. I use a linear PS and an isolated 192khz/24 bit DAC for audio in stereo or surround. I'm not even going to go into my speakers or headphones because I'll stray too far off point. I do however want to describe when I'm using my laptop instead to achieve audiophile quality sound. I use SPDIF to an external DAC. When I am using the notebook specifically for music, I use a USB-to-SPDIF convertor called a Halide Bridge for playback of high resolution audio via a program called foobar and WASAPI out. These are my current solutions for achieving the purest sound intended from the source file, albeit FLAC or MP3, minimizing EMI/RFI interference from the guts of the PC as much as possible, avoiding any noise artifacts from the onboard bus or the notebook's own internal processes. But that's just one of thousands of solutions out there, many of which are relatively inexpensive to do. I'm certainly not the know-it-all when it comes to perfecting sound quality, but I believe I've got a grip on it. Notebooks, by their nature, are a noisy mess inside and stand in the way of reproducing a premium on sound quality. Providing a solution like that of what you would find in a C.A.P.S. inside a mobile notebook for audio reproduction, at an audiophile standard, is probably way too much of a price hit for the general consumer. And a simple mini-board solution isn't going to cut it. You're not going to eliminate what's going on inside that notebook chassis for any low cost solution compared to what you can DIY externally. For the on-the-go mobile solution in general browsing and usage, if I'm relegated to the chassis speakers or only the line-out jack and a pair of headphones, I'm not going to be devastated if the audio quality isn't up to my normal audiophile standards. And to my own discriminating standards, I hardly doubt there is anything Clevo is going to pull off technologically inside that notebook that's going to impress me. (I'm not impressed by the MSI/Dynaudio tag). So to the point stating this, to be clear, I'm far more interested in Clevo throwing all their resources into perfecting their product to harness the most CPU and GPU power, with the best possible emissions/cooling, in a mobile notebook solution that can meet a budget. There are just too many external DIY solutions to the notebook chassis out there for me to get disappointed because the internal guts of a notebook alone can't produce mind-blowing sound quality. In conclusion, if Clevo takes steps to improve the internal audio components of their notebooks that doesn't significantly impact price, sure, that'd be great. But in the greater perspective of things, for a powerful notebook solution, it's just not a deal-breaker for me. Just my two cents.

 

leitmotif, let me ask you just one thing. Have you actually heard how games sound with headphones plugged to P150EM/P170EM audio output?

For for EMs its even simplier - just strapping in bunch of capacitors to filter the power supply better, so you won't hear power pulsing due to GPU draw, problem solved. Oh wait, this add like, whole several dollars to cost! Declined!

 

No sir, I have not. But I have heard it on my old Lenovo Thinkpad. And to no surprise, it's not what you would consider good. However, it is acceptable for general usage. I would certainly never use line-out for serious listening.

I would argue you can hear the internal processes without an isolated DAC and preamp solution anyway. Notebooks are what they are; however, if what you're hearing is as severe as you imply, then perhaps you have a defective piece of equipment. But in my write-up, I was focusing on sound quality in general from even the notebooks known for the best quality internal sound components. I still don't consider them a solution to any external DIY audio setup. Hence, my MSI/Dynaudio (which I have heard) comment. There are still internal processes that bleed through from an internally driven preamp. There are earthing/ground issues. There is just way too much non-linear power processes going on that have an adverse impact on the internal audio components of a notebook versus an external solution and that's why I just don't focus as much on it compared to the other features.

 

Then why are you saying its acceptable? Or do you enjoy listening how your GPU draws each frame as a ambiance for your games?
Its nowhere near Thinkpad quality, Thinkpad is like HiFi in comparison.
I would say nothing if Clevo would be mere average for a laptop sound (and I had dozen to know). But its among the worst, while laptop positioned as "gamer"/multimedia laptop, so encountering such horrendous sound there is a bit baffling.
And to add injury to insult, they show how they "care" by slapping "Onkyo" brand label on EMs, which achieved nothing, and, surprise!, sound became actually worse on EM comparing to HM! All Clevo cares about, is luring in customers with flashy labels, and hoping they will think that its "ok" because its their first laptop and they don't know if its normal or not.
People don't want Clevo to make best sound ever, or audiophile or whatever. They simply want audio at least be average-sounding on their gaming flagships, not horrible.

 

:thumbsup:

Hopefully they'll sort out this "Noise" you guys are getting, I can vouch for my Clevo, it has stunning audio quality through my PX-200's - and I know exactly what the noise is that your're referencing as I had a Gigabyte Z77 board that did the same, it got RMA'd problem solved

(I also had an AsRock board that did it years ago..... I just accepted it was by design given the price lol)

 

Clevos audio noise much less audible on bigger higher-impedance headphones, most audible on low impedance IEMs. Also, since its related to GPU power supply, models with less powerful GPUs have it a lot less. Most prominent with 100W cards like 680M.
Its not a hardware fault, but electrical design fault (its present both on 170EM and 15xEM since they share motherboard design to some extent).

 

Perhaps I am missing something, but it appears that the only OS choice will be Win 8?

 

Win 7 will still be offered as long as it's available from what we've been told. Once the keys start drying up from Microsoft though there isn't a whole lot to be done about it.

 

You would be able to source the drivers ok regardless now so if you have a win7 key you are set.

 

Apart from a new mobo, new socket for Haswell, and GPU support, what are the main differences between the P150SM and P170SM models vs. the P170HM and P150HM? Just eyeballing the manuals and can't really see anything substantial...

 

Styling and the 2nd HDD bay the new style version the P150SM will have.

 

Yoda couldn't have said it better!

 

I wonder who will be brave enough to try the first crossflash.....

 

whoever it will be, i bet it wont take too long, especially after the successful attempts with the HM and EM series

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

One thing I've been considering, is that the P1x7SM models look to have much improved touchpad buttons. If I do go Clevo, it'll be with the P177SM.

 

I like that the two hard drive bay options are there as that's important to some people and would let you get a huge amount of storage.

 

huge amount indeed! imagine two 512gb msata plus two 960gb m5 in a 15 inch laptop 2.8TB of superfast ssd storage baby!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

But then price for such a SSD