Please help! before i go crazy!

Ladies and gentlemen today was a day i tried to help my friend to get a new laptop,so we ended up with the Sager NP9150 and the final stage was choosing between the GTX680m and the AMD 7970m
most of you will go with the 7970m because its 200$ dollars cheaper,some of you will choose the GTX680m because of the AMD enduro problems(which are fixed on the 13.1 catalyst),Me and my friends play most of the time Warcraft III the frozen throne (Dota map) and we just discovered a problem with all Nvidia+optimus laptops,when ever you lunch the game with the nvidia card the game will work just fine but if you Alt+tab(minimize the game) and maximize it again the game will switch to the Intel GPU (which is running on 2D clocks) and the game FPS will drop to low 20s-30s and there is no fix for a problem like that! and like i mentioned before the AMD enduro is also scaring me as it had a lot of problems before and said fixed in the latest Catalyst.

So my questions are:
1- is there a solution for the Nvidia problem(with Warcraft III or any other games if it happens again???
2-will the AMD card play nice with warcraft and other game???
3-are the enduro problems really fixed with the latest catalyst???
4-does the Nvidia Optimus has any known problems???

Please answer the question in the same pattern(with proofs if available)
Power saving features are turning to be more pain in the back than really helping the consumer


Thank you!

Edit:Both machines will end up with the same price

Sager NP9150(Special Edition)with GTX680m
Sager NP9150 With AMD 7970m
with same upgrades and stuff both will end up @ 1799$

 

If it were up to me I would get the 680M. I have owned both Nvidia cards and AMD and I have had really good luck with Nvidia. As for the "problem" with the notebook switching from dGPU to iGPU, how do you know about this? Is this something you have experienced first hand, or did you read about it? With Optimus you have to ensure that you have gone into the nvidia control panel/program settings and selected "Nvidia GPU" for Warcraft III. As long as the program is running it won't switch between the dGPU and iGPU. If you leave it on auto select it could switch while the program is minimized. Also every time you upgrade your Nvidia driver and do a clean install don't forget to go into the control panel and reselect the Nvidia GPU for each of your games and programs you want it to run.

 

Yeah my cousin owns a lenovo Y580 with GTX 660m and a friend with an asus G75 with GTX 670m have that problem with Only warcraft! i need some one with the GTX 680m to prove to me that warcraft will run perfect or else the AMD is still the first choice!

 

I have no issues with the game you listed on the 7970M, 7970M crushes those games.

I unfortunately have been playing a lot of games that either use UE3 or PhysX, usually both. So I've been very grumpy with my 7970M. It's 100% Nvidia's fault, but it really makes me want to switch to Nvidia.

Nvidia does seem to have a lot more issues in terms of GPU switching and getting games to run on Nvidia. I have not run into any games that wouldn't run on 7970M. I just add game to profile and I'm done, nothing else needed. No workarounds needed.

As for Enduro issue, it really depends on the game. If it's a Nvidia title or PhysX title, yes, there is a ton of under-utilization issue. But that is NOT an Enduro issue, that is Nvidia being the biggest jerks in computer and gaming industry issue.

I can say from being a long time member of NBR, don't let my join date fool you, the #1 issue I've seen about Nvidia since Optimus has been introduced, is getting games to run on Nvidia. Some haven't run into it, not saying Nvidia are prone for it or known for it, but it is the #1 Nvidia issue on NBR to me. That also means, overall, Nvidia cards are dependable, power efficient, run well and they have been good with their mobile driver support. AMD on the other hand, still treat mobile users as second class.

What does that mean? AMD don't demonstrate in any way publicly, that they care about their mobile users. There are no company reps on any forum for mobile users. And yet they have them for desktop forums and desktop overclocking forums. They are present on desktop gaming events, and sponsor them, but none for mobile. They publicly announce fixes and acknowledgement of issues for desktop users, but never for mobile. You ALWAYS hear about mobile fixes from third party, who don't even care much about PC gaming or AMD, like AnandTech which should be renamed, APPLE FANATICS and iPHONE gaming. AMD ONLY provide fixes for mobile out of necessity. I don't seen ANY effort from AMD making mobile work as fast and as optimized as possible. I only see them doing the bare minimum of making sure the hardware works. $600 hardware is not something you expect just to work, you expect the best optimization possible... Another reason why I'm grumpy with AMD.

Don't know what to tell you. It's a real mix bag. AMD has no plans to introduce any new hardware in the near future. All the 8000M series for notebooks, are old technology. In fact the 7970M is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more powerful than any 8000M series that have been released or even announced... And there have been no 8000 series announced for desktops.

This means, AMD knows their drivers for 7KHD GCN cores are far from optimized. Even for Cross-Fire on GCN, they won't have a fix for the micro-stutter until sometime in JULY.... , AMD it literally taking 1.5 years after they started selling CFX GCN setups to fix it. They announced back in January they discovered the memory controller drivers are not suitable for GCN cores... And guess what, they still have not announced when those will be released.

AMD still has no driver fix to make sure games run with low frame latency. Every game that has had issues with that and recent games have had to have specific game driver fixes to make sure they have low frame latency, and even then, Nvidia still have significantly and noticeably lower frame latency.

So again, don't know what to tell. It's a real mix bag. It means if you buy 7970M, you will continue to see lots of improvements in performance and frame latency and overall driver quality this year. But it also means, AMD has know they have terrible driver optimizations but chose to sell GCN hardware for 1.5 years before resolving a lot of MAJOR and BIG issues.

Of course that also means, at this rate, maybe they will never fix those issues. And even if they do fix them for desktop, somehow it will be messed up on PowerExpress/Enduro systems and AMD will never fix that. Good chance of that.

One thing to think about... Why is it that 7970M has so much more cores and memory bandwidth than the lower models, yet the performance doesn't reflect that? 7970M is only faster due to the sheer number of cores and power. My opinion, not because AMD makes any real effort to make sure the 7970M is truly optimized for best gaming experience possible. Only the bare minimum that it works.

The 7970M is based on the 7870 Pitcairn. The 7870 Pitcairn is considered HIGH END desktop gaming. It's not midrange, it's HIGH END. Mid range is 7850 and lower. 7970M is a full core 7870, not only that, 7870 Ghz Edition core and memory speeds. But I can tell you flatly, 7970M does not feel high end gaming at all. It feels completely mid range. Their is ZERO overclocking and ZERO high end gaming support from AMD. You have to mess with unofficial methods which are unsupported by AMD. 680M on the otherhand have custom vBIOS to modify voltage, core clocks etc. And they have official overclocking and high end gaming support.

ALL AMD high end gaming and overclocking support beyond the very limited support through OverDrive in the terrible software called CCC is unsupported by AMD. That means ALL methods to provide ambient occlusion or dynamic vertical sync or custom gaming profiles, or triple buffering in DirectX games or overclocking and voltage changes are UNOFFICIAL and UNSUPPORTED by AMD. The developers of Sapphire Trixx, MSI Afterburner, Radeon PRO DO NOT have support by AMD. But... Nvidia works with and cooperates with developers of third party Nvidia software, including MSI Afterburner. AMD are in many ways bigger jerks than Nvidia.

No matter how evil, and how big of a jerk Nvidia are, still seems they provide an infinite amount more attention for high end mobile PC gaming than AMD.

 

It really says something about the 7970m when even the AMD fanboys wish they'd gone with Nvidia.

My suggestion: get the 680m. Its driver support is infinitely better than AMD's, it runs cooler and overclocks a hell of a lot better. I've owned both the 7970m and 680m, and I don't see myself ever going back to AMD.

 

But the warcraft problem is the most important thing over here

all Nvidia GPUs have that problem so until i find a solution i think am will be the choice

 

I wouldn't even consider the 7970m on a Clevo. I only bought one for my Alienware because Dell overcharges for its 680ms and I can leave the Intel HD 4000 off.

Edit: Ok, fair enough: I don't have a Clevo, but I did have poor experiences with Enduro before disabling it.

 

Good to know NBR Alienware. And let me guess, you were a long time owner of a 7970M on a Clevo before going NBR Alienware? Or just trolling 7970M and Clevo. Cause I think anyone who would not consider all their options, is a moron or troll. You clearly did not read what the OP asked. 7970M on a Clevo runs all the games he asked about beautifully, crushes them. But makes complete sense that NBR Alienwar would never consider a 7970M on a Clevo...

 

I gave a roundabout answer to question #3. Problem?

I said that I would not consider the option. I did not tell him not to consider it.

 

Yeah I do have a problem with someone who hasn't owned a 7970M on a Clevo telling OP to never consider that option. Especially when the 7970M Clevo option costs $200 less and works with the games he asked about better than a 680M Clevo option right now.

Glad the OP asked so he can help his friend make a decision after considering their options. I gave my answer, a really long one, hopefully will help him decide based on my experience with a 7970M Clevo, and hopefully others.

 

I'd check and see if the 680m were affected by this issue, but unfortunately I don't have Optimus (or WoW lol.) I've definitely never heard of this issue of this issue affecting anyone with a 680m though.

Hopefully someone else with a 680m can share their experience.

I'm sorry, but the only people who are allowed to give advice are Clevo 7970m owners?

Prolixious is a 7970m owner, meaning he's intimately familiar with the issues afflicting Enduro laptops. His opinion is just as valid as any other 7970m owner's. Just because he owns a different brand of laptop doesn't exempt him from sharing his experience, and definitely doesn't mean he's "trolling."

 

But this begs me to ask the question, why are you getting him such a powerful and expensive machine if the primary reason for it is to play DoTA 1? Either way, if a powerful machine is at hand and DoTA 1 is just popular with you guys or something, assuming he can handle a 17-incher, the better choice may be a P370EM variant (read: NP9370) with a 680M as there is no optimus (or enduro) on that machine. Should come up to a similar price with the same components I believe (may be wrong there; I don't know your config nor have I tried price-matching those two machines in the past).

 

I don't care if he gives his experience with 7970M and his Alienware. Fine by me. But to say he would never consider a 7970M with a Clevo without having experienced it, whatever, I call that that advice just trolling. For notebooks this expensive, a prospective Clevo customer should consider all their options. And at the time I replied to him, he didn't provide a single sentence in regard to your response, it was a flat, I would never consider a 7970M with a Clevo, nothing else.

But it's stupid to argue over it, sorry to OP, I'm derailing the thread. Good luck with your WoW and games and your friend getting an awesome Clevo system.

 

I thought that alienware's machines have Mux switches and thus no Optimus or Enduro?

Also he's asking about Warcraft 3 + Frozen Throne, not World of Warcraft. Warcraft 3's a really old game and gives a lot of problems on newer hardware and setups. It also hates dual monitors; pushes every single open window to my second screen repeatedly and tends to crash outright for no reason as well (doesn't do this without the second monitor attached, mind you).

 

The m17x does have Optimus/Enduro (unless you unlock the BIOS), but you can disable the HD 4000 on it. The m18x has manual switching. I should also take my leave. OP can buy what he wants. I told him what I would do.

 

The experience is basically the same with both the NP9150 and M17x, aside from the fact that the M17x can disable Enduro. I think he was just saying that he wouldn't consider an Enduro-enabled 7970m with any notebook based on his his experience with it. You're right though, this is getting off-topic. Sorry OP.

Whoops, missed that. Whenever I see "Warcraft" I automatically think of WoW lol. Thanks for clarifying.

And yes, AWs (the M17x in particular) can disable switchable graphics, but they still run Enduro/Optimus in their default state.

 

I am sorry if i started an argument about the Green VS Red ,there are a lot of valid points,as an AMD fan i understand that they have a lot of problems from time to time ,frame latency problems on a 7950 Desktop and Micro stuttering and bad scaling in an AMD 6990m crossfire Laptop,but we play Dota 1 (warcraft 3 not WOW) on daily bases for a minimum of 2 hours and a max of a whole day(lan parties are very common between us) i am open for all the replays from Clevo or Alienware users,although alienware users dont have the Optimus or the Enduro problems because of the favor of Mux switching,He would play Dota 1,Dota 2 ,HoN on daily bases thats what made the choice harder (Dota 2 and HoN have no problems with switchable graphics unlike Dota1) and to answer why a powerfull rig 1- he needs a quality laptop to last him a long time,2-he plays high end games from time to time (he just playes Assassin's creed 3,farcry 3,crysis 3,NFS mostwanted,hitman,tombraider) and one thing i know that AMD will fix those problems one day but still scared it will take longer than expected ,and choosing the Nvidia will be a huge gamble as i already saw with the 660m and 670m (with Dota1 warcraft 3)


Sorry if my English is bad :s its not my first language !

 

You came across perfectly clear and you did not start any arguements, OP. Don't worry about that. As for the laptop, check out the one I suggested to you (Clevo P370EM aka Sager NP9370) and see if that's fine. They have no switchable graphics at all and you might get a similar pricing for the same internal components, so it may work out better with that in the end, if your friend can use a 17" laptop (as opposed to the 15" P150EM you two are currently looking at). As for the Optimus/Enduro woes, they're not going away anytime soon, especially if it's very rare (and old) application issues that aren't encountered by too many people. Either way, give it a look!

 

Good suggestion, that would be my choice for a Clevo right now, P370EM with 680M. Actually I think that's the best gaming laptop option available right now, at least for the things I look for personally.

 

Clevo P370EM aka Sager NP9370 is not an option at all for some reasons,1-its huge compared to other 17 inchers ,2-its out of budget with same upgrades,3-he canceled the M17x because he really wanted a 15.6 inch so i guess its matter of luck in a situation like this,i guess going with the GTX 680m is the best move right now as it has a better over all and will hope to find a permanent fix for it.


One more question can i run the intel 4000 @ full performance if i chose it to run dota? because it will be more than enough to handle it @ 60fps (as the lenovo wont let the intel 4000 clock past the 2D clocks!)

 

I really don't know. I DO believe you can get the most out of the intel graphics on the Clevos, but I haven't tried it myself as I'm still using my D900F until somebody magically buys me a P370EM or I save up enough money in october XD. The P150EM should be good either way, all I can do is wish you luck in that respect. Sorry we couldn't be more help, OP.

 

Dreams do come true ,thanks every one i think i will just pull the trigger on the GTX 680m and will try to do everything to solve that problem so wish me luck ,you really helped me in some points and i will report on the problem after i purchase it so maybe it will help some one ,,one day and will make his choice easier

1-will try to work around the Nvidia drivers
2- will try to make dota work all the time on the intel 4000 (full performance)


+Rep for every one cheers!

 

One more question before i go? can any one with NP9150 confirm for me that the Intel HD4000 will work with full performance not like the lenovo (underclocked) ?

 

one important issue with amd semms to be the high failure rate of their cards i see posted on this forum- particularly the 6970 and 6990. they seem to fail after 1 year or so. to me this should be your primary concern.
look around the forum and do a few searches of it. i havent seen any real threads dealing with nvidia cards failing under normal usage ( no crazy oc, etc.) but ive seen many threads on amd high end card failures.
i was thinking of upgrading my 485m to the 7970 but decided not to after all these failure reports.

 

ive never had a problem with the HD4000 so far. runs flawlessly.

 

Agreed with MrDJ, no problems with the HD4000 that i've heard of either.

 

Mr.Hutsady i tried contacting you yesterday through the site to ask you about some question
i will pm you!

 

Thanks every one

 

Glad you got sorted out and some peace of mind, OP.

 

New HD 4000 driver coming out: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/ne...?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

 

Thanks

Nice!