Question About P870TM CPU Options

I'm considering buying the P870TM notebook which comes with several options in the CPU section including the possibility of opting out of choosing a CPU in addition to selecting an i5-8600k or i7-8700k both of which would be delidded, undervolted, and overclocked.

Because I don't have any personal experience with those type of modifications, I would like to know the difference between choosing one of the above-mentioned options/modifications versus me purchasing an i7-8700 (non-k version) and installing it myself with a good quality thermal paste and not making any modifications.

Although I don't know the math regarding what the above modifications will equal to in terms of final draw power, temps, threshold before throttling, etc., using logic, I assume that the i7-8700 would be somewhat equivalent in all aspects (performance, temperature, etc.) since its TDP is 65 (while the i7 k version has a TDP of 95).

Are my assumptions correct? And am I correct in assuming that I wouldn't have to worry about temps of I was to install a non-k i7 that is not delidded or under volted?

 

You can undervolt the 8700k to reduce the power draw. If you buy one from Eurocom or HIDEvolution that has been delidded with the unlocked BIOS etc you will not have issues with temperatures. The 8700 non K is not worth it imo. The 8700K will only draw 95W when its under full load on all cores, in regular use it wont.

 

GIve us an idea what your tasks are. Also the 65W TDP is only base frequency, meaning 3.6ghz. If it clocks to 4.2ghz its TDP is actually around 120.

No. the non K is already a firing furnace in the notebook which consumes on base frequencies 95W, on turbo it's around 120-130W. The K's overclock is so limited that it's actually not worth using the 8700K in clevo notebooks unless you try to test how long a CPU and the Clevos VRMs will last under near thermal throttle threshhold.

 

That is true, the VRM is the only concern i'd have with that laptop as the CPU temps aren't that bad once its been delidded and undervolted. If i bought one of them i'd just make sure it had a good long warranty. If they used high quality VRM components then they should last at least a few years, but if they cheaped out of them then I definitely wouldn't buy one. If you really need a lot of CPU power though then its pretty much the only option sadly.

If the OP doesn't actually need that much power then i'd suggest he looks for something with a different CPU.

 

Thanks Danishblunt and Arrrbol for the quick response. I will primarily be using the laptop for gaming and running virtual machines. The reason I focused on an i7 CPU is for longevity. But from your responses, it sounds like a desktop cpu in a laptop isn't going to last as long as it would in a regular desktop and it also sounds like you guys are saying that installing a modified i7-8700k carries similar risks as an unmodified non-k version of the same cpu. Am I right? EDIT: The reason I'm looking at notebooks with desktop cpus is also because (aside from power) I assumed the i7-8700 would last longer than an i7-8850H (whenever Intel decides to release it, which I assume will be within the next 3 months).

Btw, I always thought that the TDP was the maximum possible for a cpu at stock settings (which is why I thought the non-k version would be safer, because I thought it would use less power than an under volted k version, causing lower temps and longer use as if it was installed in a desktop case).

 

I think Intel define the TDP as the average power consumption when all cores are fully loaded at the base clock, when turbo boost kicks in the power draw will be higher than the TDP.

Could you clarify what you mean by long lasting? Do you mean long lasting physically in terms of the components or do you mean long lasting in the sense it will still perform well in several years? The new Intel mobile chips that are coming should have performance that will last many years, especially if you go for one of the overclockable ones. MSI may be worth looking at for them in a few months time. In terms of physically long lasting, the CPU its self is usually not the issue - but the rest of the components (VRM especially) are. The VRM on the P870TM will have a lot more power and heat to deal with than that on something with a mobile chip and will probably not last as long.

 

I apologize for not being more specific in my previous reply. By long lasting, I mean both physically and in terms of its relevancy.

But it sounds like a mobile cpu will last longer in a laptop than a desktop cpu since, from what you're saying, the VRM will be the determining factor of the lifespan of the laptop with a desktop cpu.

On a side note, what do you think of the MSI cases compared to the Clevo cases? Which do you think have better cooling and features? (I don't really care about which looks better).

 

Yeah. Generally its the board components which fail rather than the chip (though there are exceptions). If you pick a good mobile CPU from a manufacturer which has high quality motherboards then you should be fine for many years, providing it has an upgradeable GPU which is more important for gaming. My Alienware M17x R2 is 8 years old this year and it should last me at least another couple of years once i've upgraded the GPU to something more powerful. The board has no signs of anything wrong (apart from my broken power button). I can understand your worries about soldered CPUs though as i'm not a fan of them myself. I'd rather have the peace of mind knowing that I can replace it if needs be, but considering my original i7 is still working its probably not all that important. Just make sure you get the best possible CPU when you buy and you should be good.

 

I'm happy to hear your CPU on that laptop is still running strong, that's very reassuring. On a side note, what do you think of the MSI cases compared to the Clevo cases? Which do you think have better cooling and features? (I don't really care about which looks better).

 

MSI cooling is ok on the GT73/75 apparently but the GT83 is a hot mess on the CPU and the leaks on the 6 core versions look similar.

Clevo ridiculously overspec their VRMs on the P870 series. It's made for overclocking, it handles stock operation even of 8700K WITH EASE. Generally with anything mechanical or electrical, a lower % utilisation or duty cycle means improved longievity (think of the cumulative stress on a car's engine cruising down the highway at 1500rpm in 6th vs a tiny 3 cylinder revving its teats off at 6000rpm in 2nd to maintain the same speed)

Ignore what Danishblunt has to say about TDP, he still doesn't understand what Intel Turboboost is and how it works. Yes power consumption is higher for a short time (this is NOT TDP but a power limit) but it is a time limited auto-overclock and is what turboboost is all about. Intel CPUs have been doing this for a decade now and are as reliable as ever.

CPU failure is extremely rare. Motherboard VRM failure in high end Clevos is very rare, unless there is a defect in cooling (no thermal pad contact or degraded thermal pads for example). This is associated with the somewhat variable quality and care of the various resellers who assemble (and hopefully, test) your machine. Some bargain basement resellers don't care if their customers' units end up thermal throttling. Others, and I'm assuming the OP is referring to HID Evolution with their warrantied delid option, have a much much better reputation in this regard and will not ship you an overheating mess. You can request they delid and apply the liquid metal but leave it at stock multipliers and power limits if you wish.

Delidding is basically only a temperature reduction by increasing the efficiency of the cooling solution. It has been done to many Intel CPU generations for many years now and there is no real risk, apart from damaging the CPU while doing it badly (which you're not). Reduced temperature (and the slightly reduced voltage that also leads to) means lower fan speeds and/or improved lifespan, or improved overclocking headroom.

If you are after highest CPU performance possible, you can't get better than the Clevos with desktop chipsets. If you want more performance you have to feed a CPU more power to do the work, and the design of the Clevos being around overclocking a 95W desktop CPU means better thermals than laptops designed around 45W or 65W laptop CPUs trying to run a similar workload.

Also the extra threads from the i7's are a must. Traditionally they have always been highly beneficial for all workloads and only worthless in games, but that is changing, and will continue to down the road. If you look at the last couple of generations the i5's are dropping off their performance much quicker than the hyperthreaded i7's

 

I'm not familiar with Clevo's models that use mobile CPUs. There will be people on the forum who are better placed to tell you about them. MSI seem to have pretty good cooling designs (the GT73/5 especially).

If you do want a desktop CPU though, it might be worth looking at the Eurocom Tornado F5 (or the EVOC 16L). It is based on an MSI chassis and it seems to have more room for the VRM components to breathe (someone correct me if i'm wrong and its a hot mess). That uses Kaby Lake CPUs though rather than Coffee Lake. They do run a little cooler on average, but they are quad core rather than hex core CPUs. I think there is also work being done on the Tornado F7 which will use Coffee Lake CPUs.

If i was buying a new laptop, I would probably veer against practicality and go for something with a desktop CPU. It will need more work and tinkering to get running nicely, but the performance speaks for its self. A good cooling pad like the Cooler Master U3 plus or similar will help keep the components cool. If you need to use your laptop on battery power however, a mobile CPU will be better for you.

It may be a good idea to look around on the various owner's lounges of these laptops on the forum and ask them about their experiences with the laptops. There is also a form on the "What notebook should I buy?" section which can be filled in for others to help give you advice on what to buy.

@Phoenix I believe has an MSI, so you may want to ask for his opinions on the GT73VR.

You may also want to ask @Mr. Fox about Clevo/Eurocom/HIDEvolution systems as he probably has more experience with them than almost anyone else.

Don't only listen to me though, try and get as many opinions as possible as everyone has different tastes and interpretations on things.

On that note anyone feel free to call me out if anything I've said is bull****.

 

Wow, thanks @bennyg for the detailed response! You are correct in assuming that I'm talking about HIDevolution. Which do you think would provide lower temps inside the P870TM?

• Delidded - Unlocked, Under Volted and Overclocked i7-8700K, 4.7 GHz (Overclocked to 4.8GHz) (Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut)

OR

• i7-8700 (non-k) without any modifications and using Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut

 

Ignore what Bennyg wrote and instead trust actual numbers and facts instead of some random ranting about how great a notebook is and instead look at facts.

https://ark.intel.com/products/126684/Intel-Core-i7-8700K-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_70-GHz
You can see under TDP the fine little question mark. Which states the following:

When running the 8700 non k on stock turbo speeds (4.2ghz) the CPU gets the following results on Prime:

Source

So unless you plan on disabling turbo and run it on 3.6ghz then you can trust the 65TDP spec.

Instead of listening to people, try to do research with facts and numbers. You'll quickly find out that what Bennyg is writing can be ignored and should be ignored.
Also to save yourself money and time, honestly any 7700HQ + GTX 1070 notebook would do absolutely everything you'd want. I'd go for an MSI Dominator and be done with it if I were you. They work out of the box, are great machines, don't suffer form high temps etc.

Here is Bennygs "hot mess"

Spoiler

You know the very hot mess which is 54c and 66c on both GTX 1070s. Yes you read right, friggn 1070s on furmark with 54c + 66c.

and a 6720HK on 4ghz on prime running without any throttling

Meanwhile the P870DM3

Spoiler

You know, the 90c on both CPU's and massive throttling on the 6700 non k to 3ghz. 800mhz clock on the primary 1080.

Don't be fooled, do yourself a huge favor and get something like a 7700hq / 1070 system from MSI to make yourself actually happy. No crappy software, no bad throttling, no modding required, no crappy keyboard, no issues.

Also here is the GT 83 on highed specced hardware:

Spoiler

As you can see, temps are way to high, still less throttling than the Clevo on the GPU which is expected etc. Just don't go for high end specced hardware. You'll only have to deal with high heat, lots of noise, trashy huge power bricks and pay a premium to have to deal with it.

 

Stop post nonsens!!

Maybe you should start read Intel's datasheet so you can understand how Intel's processors works!!

8th Gen (S-platform) Intel® Processor Family Datasheet Vol.1

Thermal Considerations...
The processor TDP is the maximum sustained power that should be used for design of the processor thermal solution.

TDP is a power dissipation and component temperature operating condition limit, specified in this document, that is validated during manufacturing for the base configuration when executing a near worst case commercially available workload as specified by Intel for the SKU segment.

TDP may be exceeded for short periods of time or if running a very high power workload.

To allow the optimal operation and long-term reliability of Intel processor-based systems, the processor must remain within the minimum and maximum component temperature specifications. For lidded parts, the appropriate case temperature (TCASE) specifications is defined by the applicable thermal profile. For bare die parts the component temperature specification is the applicable Tj_max.

Thermal solutions not designed to provide this level of thermal capability may affect the long-term reliability of the processor and system.

The processor integrates multiple processing IA cores, graphics cores and for some SKUs a PCH, or a PCH and EDRAM, on a single package.This may result in power distribution differences across the package and should be considered when designing the thermal solution.

Intel Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 allows processor IA cores to run faster than the base frequency. It is invoked opportunistically and automatically as long as the processor is conforming to its temperature, voltage, power delivery and current control limits. When Intel Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 is enabled:

• Applications are expected to run closer to TDP more often as the processor will attempt to maximize performance by taking advantage of estimated available energy budget in the processor package.


• The processor may exceed the TDP for short durations to utilize any available thermal capacitance within the thermal solution. The duration and time of such operation can be limited by platform runtime configurable registers within the processor.

• Graphics peak frequency operation is based on the assumption of only one of the graphics domains (GT) being active. This definition is similar to the IA core Turbo concept, where peak turbo frequency can be achieved when only one IA core is active. Depending on the workload being applied and the distribution across the graphics domains the user may not observe peak graphics frequency for a given workload or benchmark.

• Thermal solutions and platform cooling that are designed to less than thermal design guidance may experience thermal and performance issues. Note: Intel Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 availability may vary between the different SKUs.

 

DO NOT LISTEN TO DANISHBLUNT !!!

He has been spamming forums and getting reps from newbies who think he's a god or something.
ONLY listen to Benny, Mr Fox, Phoenix, @Arrrrbol , Prema, BGAbook dragon slayer Papusan, and other well established members who have done their homework (and had blood wounds from BGA throttlebooks in the past).

I'll say it again.
Danishblunt is the proud owner of a GT73VR THROTTLEBOOK with a 5200 mhz (5.2 ghz) STABLE 7820HK at a nice low vcore of 1.270v, on TRADITIONAL THERMAL PASTE (he hates liquid metal).
Did I say it was guaranteed stable? Along with picture proof? : )

Just to make something else clear:
Mr Blunt has absolutely no idea what the IA AC DC loadline setting does. Reference value for MSIbooks Kaby Lake / Z270) is 1.80 mOhms and 2.10 mOhms for Coffee Lake (Z370, etc)

Assuming 100 amps of power draw (this is dirty science, i'm sure Prema or an Intel engineer will come correct me): 1.80 mOhms=0.0018 Ohms.
100 * 0.0018= 0.180 volts. Thats 0.180 volts of batter...er...I mean VID Boost (Sorry, @Papusan I had to type that).

So 1.270v + 0.180v= 1.45v at 100 amps. GT73VR is only good for a suicide run at 5 ghz @ 1.4v with SuperPI 1M or a CPU-Z screenshot. Zener Diodes will cause VRM shutoff if you try to put a multi core load on the system at this point, or you reach 100C *WITH* liquid metal.

Here's 4900 mhz after 3 runs of Cinebench, with fans at 100% speed and with Conductonaut. Yes, Liquid metal. Mighty Papusan is licking his chops at this throttlebook...This is 1.375v, with VID BOOST REMOVED (IA AC DC loadline is set to 0.01 mOhms).

 

Wow, looks like it could function as a portable kitchen stove lol.

All jokes aside, I'm heavily considering @Arrrrbol advice about going against practicality by getting a laptop with a desktop CPU. I did a little bit of researching regarding disabling turbo boost, and it seems to decrease CPU temps by (on average) 20C...which I think would make the i7-8700 (non-k version) a perfect fit.

Additionally, I took a look at the GT73VR and it would be about $400 higher than the P870TM with similar chosen specs and $800 higher than the P775TM1--which I'm considering now since it's 4 pounds lighter than the P870TM and includes an option for an IPS panel (display quality is more important to me than higher refresh rate). The only thing I'm concerned about is the cooling in that chassis. I'd be getting the GTX 1070 for it, so I hope the temps won't be too high under heavy use.

 

Once you bought it, could u do some gaming benchmarks? I'm interested to see how it performs, because so far I've only seen underperforming clevos and people who claim that theirs run good never upload anything.

 

The GT73VR is in no way more expensive than the P870 TM1 with similar specs. Make sure the DDR RAM configurations and the SSD drive options are the same. Just a minor change on SSD drive type and RAM can make a huge difference in the base price. The default configurations they ship with are different.

I have a GT73VR And I'm telling you right now--JUMP on the P870 TM1 6 core CPU vs 4 core CPU and a Prema bios? You should be on that thing like candy man.

Oh, and there is no battery boost on the Prema Bios powered P870 TM1 from HIDevolution @Donald@HIDevolution @Prema

Do you want to see what happens if you try to forcibly disable battery boost on the GT73VR with a 195W TDP GTX 1070? (there's a "way" to do this if the battery is physically disconnected but i'm not getting to that):



Please don't buy the GT73VR. Just don't.
@Papusan @Mr. Fox

If you don't take my advice, there will be some Norway homebred Reindeer and Moose waiting at your doorstep, combined with a vomiting snowman. Along with a mannequin and #1 in gaming poster !

Please buy the P870 TM1. If my Throttlebook broke tomorrow I would be calling Donald on the phone right now making sure my new Prema powered High Performance System P870 TM1 would be all ready to go so Papusan would invite me over for Venison and beer one day!

 

Looks like You've earned this one bro Falkentyne. Very very good advice And continue in the same track

 

Another thing worth mentioning... I believe you will void your warranty by disassembling an MSI laptop, whereas Eurocom, HIDevolution et cetera are all fine with it. I have also heard bad things about MSI's tech support (quite a few threads on the forums regarding that). Eurocom and HIDEvolution both have a presence here on the forums, and from what I've seen their tech support is pretty good. You can buy an MSI laptop through HIDevolution or other sellers though which would be better than buying from MSI directly.

You would probably be happy with either of them, @Falkentyne is correct in saying the Coffee Lake CPUs will be significantly better than the Kaby Lake mobile ones in the MSI. If you have your heart set on an MSI, i'd wait for the Coffee Lake ones to come out. Otherwise the P870 is the only laptop currently available with Coffee Lake CPUs (that aren't those ****ty low powered U class ones at least).

 

Warranty is not voided in Europe and USA. Only in some strange regions. No damage=no voided warranty.

Besides the stories about MSI desktop motherboards blowing VRM's and dying (more often than anything else; some reseller over on the alienware section took stats of this), it's pretty sad that MSI actually uses semi decent components in their throttlebooks. If they didn't use 2nd tier low binned BGA slug chips and then castrate their performance with draconian power limits which work fine until you decide to run one thing out of specification, and those Zener diodes which shut the VRM's off if you pull too much current (based on what they think would forcibly bypass 100C temps if you had maximum fan speed), they could actually be a close second to Clevo. Prema already found out what happens if full power restrictions are completely removed and the CPU and GPU are allowed to full maximum power on a 5.1 ghz 7700K in a MSI 16L13 with the GPU pulling full power...the Zener diodes just shut off the VRM's.

MSI's MXM slots can actually handle 195W of sustained power directly through the slot. That's impressive and actually proper implementation with proper VRM support for that. Only Clevo can equally achieve that or more.

Courtesy of @BeastsForever.TheDragon for information on Zeners.

 

I just noticed that there are two different models of the GT73VR: the 4K-480 and the 4K-867. I can't tell the difference between the two aside from the fact that the 4K-867 is on sale at a cheaper price and that one also includes the option to overclock the i7-7820HK (doesn't make sense to me why that one is on sale instead of the 4k-480). But anyway, I specced out and gave you the price difference using the 4K-480. Using the chassis of the one that's on sale, it makes the GT73VR $200 cheaper than the P870 and $200 higher than the P775. But one can still argue that (theoretically) the GT73VR is more expensive since it has a mobile CPU vs the other two Clevo notebooks which use desktop CPUs.

Btw @Falkentyne I think you misread what I said about the boost. I was referring to disabling Intel's turbo boost on the cpu (in order to decrease temps). Originally (the reason I created this thread) was because I wanted to know if an 8700 (non-k and without any modifications) would be cooler than an 8700K that is delidded, under volted, and overclocked since the non-k version has a lower TDP. I settled on going for the non-k 8700 since I believe disabling turbo boost would be sufficient to keep the non-k 8700 cool in the laptop.

Have you (or anyone) heard anything regarding the temps in the P775TM1. The few posts I've found about heating issue was regarding the GTX 1080, but I'm going to go with the 1070, so I wanted to see if that one won't have any heating issues. The fact that the P775TM1 is four pounds lighter makes it a little more attractive (assuming it can sufficiently cool its components.

 

Mister Blue, try to find out if your 1070 over at HIDevolution is also available in the P870 Tm-G configuration, with the exact same heatsink configuration as the 1080 version, or if this only accepts a 1080 video card. Ask Donald if the Vapor chamber heatsink can be used with BOTH the single GTX 1070 card and the GTX 1080 card, or if it's a completely different design and different heatsink (e.g. if the mainboard, cooling, chassis and system are completely identical, with only the 1070 and 1080 being the different factor).

If you are not afraid to mod, and you have the mighty Prema Bios, you may be able to mod your 1070 to 195W (maximum for MXM specification) to match a 1080's TDP, but for cheaper. You would still need the 330W PSU for this, and you would need to read the Pascal Bios editing thread on the proper tools to use (it takes only 10 seconds to actually flash the modified Bios with the Skypro programmer). There was also some other posts last year saying newer GTX 1070 MXM cards came with 10 gps (forgot the term, but 10000 mhz effective) DDR4 also, which would make a 195W TDP modded 1070 with +1000 mhz offset on the RAM EXTREMELY fast, and would actually beat out most stock GTX 1080 cards in 3dmark).

Then if you ever wanted the Clevo 1080 in the future and could find it cheap, you could just swap to that. Although not sure why you would need to if your 1070 were rocking a storm like that).

@Mister_Blue I wasn't misreading anything.
I was talking about BATTERY BOOST, aka NOS, something MSI started using back during the GT60 days, and is still used even in the GT75VR. And cannot be disabled under normal circumstances, unless you want to do the "CPU throttle chaingun chacha @Papusan

(Yes, it 'can' be disabled, and the CPU throttle removed, if the battery is disconnected and then you play with some Embedded Controller registers that are exposed to the operating system via EC RAM to trick the EC into thinking the battery is still inserted, but that's....getting off topic).

BTW I'm not trying to start a fight or cause a flame war. This is a serious issue actually.
Some MSI laptops (certain GT72VR configurations) are actually shipping in some European regions (and possibly other regions) with their NOS system actually completely deactivated, but they didn't code the EC to handle this configuration, and it causes throttling (because they use the exact same EC as laptops with NOS enabled):

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...u-throttling-to-800mhz-and-stuttering.813644/

 

Cpu running with higher clocks and power limits will always run hotter. It's normal. The 8700 will run hot in the beginning under full load, but will clock down, decrease the power and follow Intel's specs for i7-8700(65w TDP).

 

The 1070 is available in the P870 chassis, I actually made another mistake lol. The P870TM is the one for the gtx 1070--which supports two 1070s, just like the P870TM1 (the one that supports up to two 1080s). They appear to have exactly the same form factors and options (vapor chambers, etc).

Since my specs include an 1080p IPS panel, I don't think modding the 1070 will be necessary at the moment. But when a 120hz IPS panel comes out that I can switch to, I will definitely look into that!

I had a feeling you knew what you were talking about, but I just wanted to double check since both terms include the word "boost" lol.

 

The only difference is the GPU/heatsink combo between the two @Mister_Blue