What am I missing here?

If you want to read my original post on the "What Should I Buy" sub-forum, it might help you understand more why I'm asking this:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=148688

As I said in the other post, I had never heard of Sager until I came to this forum. I'm sort of on a crash-course w/all this, so pls bear w/me. I read an article on "ODM" makers and rebranding on powernotebooks.com, and I understand a bit better now.

I just ran thru the configurator at sagernotebook.com, and also configured something similar at Dell. The notebook at Sager was the 9260, at Dell the XPS1710. The best I could do at Dell on the CPU was the Intel Core 2 Duo T7600. At Sager, the Core 2 Duo E6700 (which I'm assuming is the faster processor?). The rest of the components I configured similarly on each system.

The Dell was almost $3800 US. The Sager was $3100.

Am I crazy? Is the Sager a much better deal for $700 less than the Dell?

I then configured a Sager 5790, which has the new Santa Rosa platform that I actually really want. Configured the same as the other systems, w/the main difference being the Intel Core 2 Duo T7700, the price ends up being $2900.

So, at Dell I can't even get a notebook w/the Santa Rosa platform in a 17" screen in the XPS line, while at Sager I can, for $900 less than Dell's older technology.

I don't want to insult any Sager owners and afficionados, but I also don't want to beat around the bush, so I'll just ask straight out: is the Sager physically built as well as the Dell? And am I paying $900 more just for the Dell name? (Which I don't think that much of, actually.)

By "physically built as well", I mean is the case all plastic, or is there some stronger metal? Does the screen hinge flex? Is the repair rate higher on Sager notebooks than on Dells, or lower, or about the same?

How well does Sager live up to their warranty? Do they work hard to resolve issues, or do they blow you off?

IOW, would I be fiscally stupid to buy a system from Dell, when I can get one w/much bettter specs from Sager?

 

Well, i can tell you this, I don't know squat about Sager, but dell service at home, is very good

 

Yes, you would be stupid to buy any sort of high end gaming system from Dell right now. Their XPS line is notoriously overpriced, and a Sager or Clevo rebrand is almost always cheaper, better built, and more powerful.

 

Most people in this forum actually nag about how dell computers are made. And a lot of dell computers are BASED off of sager/compal structures. Compal/Sager ACTUALLY MAKE DELL COMPUTERS. These odm's ship them to dell and then dell puts its label on it. So yeah your just paying for the "horrible" dell label, but i have nothing against dells. If you look up coupons and such, you can get a good deal on dell laptops. It is said that dell makes mass amounts of laptops. Since their built in large quantities, then it is more likely that the laptop you are receieving can mess up. On the lines of Sagers, the laptops are burnt "tested" at a greater amount so their is less likely chances of it having any problems with it.
xoticpc.com and powernotebooks.com are good resellers of these brands so you can always check them out.
They also have very good service, and can get you better support because compal and sager have less support and etc etc etc..

 

Actually, dell does a heck of a lot more than just "slap a label on," like someone like Sager does. They pick the components, they assemble the parts, they test the units. And the ODM's make the laptops to Dell's specifications, so it might not be the same quality as their whitebooks. As for pricing, AFAIK the great dell coupons and deals have very rarely applied to the XPS line, except perhaps in an instance like the M1210 EOL, though by then the laptop was not worth much as a high performance lappy anyway.

 

5790 is like a tank, and will crush your average Dell.

But I think we should note that there is a difference between Compal based Sagers and Clevo based Sagers. I have a feeling Clevos are of noticeably better build quality.

 

No, you are not crazy.

The Dell XPS is overpriced and much of the cost comes from the premium of getting an XPS, the Sager on the other hand is very reasonably priced and offers a lot more than your XPS for less price.

An example of this price disparity between big brand names and companies like Sager would be Voodoo and Alienware. Both companies use the Clevo D900c model for their top-line elite-of-the-elite laptops. However, as previously stated by many, these Voodoos and Alienwares cost much more than the standard Clevo (AKA Sager 9260) configured the same way. Amazingly, the Voodoo Envy top model, which is the Clevo D900c, starts at $3000! Starts! If configured similarly than a Clevo, then, it will cost $3000 more...for nothing!

So there you have the dirty little secret of the laptop industry, they overcharge for many performance laptops to customers who frankly don't know any better .

 

I noticed the Falcon Northwest notebooks start at a mind blowing $3000...

 

lol, no wonder that guy thought he had to spend 5-6k on a laptop in those other threads.

 

What'll you be missing? You'll be missing the proverbial BOAT and about $1000 bucks if Dell is the only brand you looked at! The XPS is way overpriced and about 2 yrs old. C'mon over $4000 bucks, no Santa Rosa? Ya gotta remember that the Clevo 570RU is very upgradeable. 7950GXT now, but upgradeable to the 8700GT and possibly the 8800 series. And, Core 2 Extreme mobile chip, too. The X7800 runs 2.6GHz unclocked, and the X7900 runs 2.8GHz unclocked!!! I wouldn't touch the current Dell 1710 XPS with a 10 foot pole.

 

Several comments here:

First, like everyone else has said, this would be a terrible time to buy an XPS m1710. I strongly suspect it's going to get a refresh in the next couple of months, because, as everyone has pointed out, it's way overpriced previous generation tech at this point.

Assuming the Santa Rosa XPS m17xx (m1730?) comes out and Dell can therefore challenge the NP5790 in features, the only extra value Dell can offer is their service, and their XPS service actually _is_ worth something.

The warranties offered by most Sager resellers are handled by professional warrantors like Warrantech and Phillips. Just Google them and you'll find horror stories of computers in worse shape after than before service, customers practically having to threaten them with lawsuits to get anything done, and so on. To get the service, you have to ship the laptop somewhere, and often, you're responsible for at least one direction of shipping costs. I'm considering a Sager myself, but I'm starting to think I'd be better off assuming the risk myself than setting myself up to deal with the hassle of coercing a warrantor to fulfill its contractual obligations.

The same kinds of horror stories exist for Dell's general consumer lines, but their XPS and business service really does seem to be a cut above. They actually do perform on-site, next-day service, and they actually do honor their accidental damage policies. That's worth something. Probably not a quarter of the purchase cost, but something, nevertheless.

 

i havent read any horror stories about the resellers from Sager ie:Xotic or Power. Ive read only how great there support and service is.

 

Justin and Donald are da bomb! Though I haven't bought any thing from either of them (that's 'cuz I'm waiting on the 8800 series) they've answered all my questions via emails so quick (most of the time the same day or next day at the latest) leaving nothing but the utmost respect and impressions. Clevo makes great notebooks and if you're looking for the best match of quality and price, have confidence. Justin and Donald can hook you up!

 

The customer service that the Sager resellers give us on demand can probably top what XPS service can offer. To Dell, you're just a whale that spent lots of money on overpriced technology, and of course it is in Dell's best interest to keep you as happy as possible, on the sole purpose so you continue to consider Dell as a future customer. Consumer lines get the shaft on customer tech support, as you only spend maybe $1000-1500, not the $4000 that the XPS demands; I'd be quite surprised if Dell service for Business line and Boutique line isn't good, but then again, Alienware service does suck from what I've been told.

Any customer tech requirements we may have can be handled by our resellers, and if you check out the Reseller Ratings page for Powernotebooks and XoticPC, you'll see nothing but praise for the two companies as they handle their tech support and customer service very well, and parts and labor are handled very well as they get the problem fixed. Perhaps your information is based from Sager Notebooks themselves, and not the resellers, but I have no doubt in my mind that my customer service and support is in good hands with the resellers.

 

I never said a word against the resellers themselves. There's ample documentation, and not just at this site, that a number of them are willing to go above and beyond the call of duty in the name of customer service. All I'm saying is, there are some things they don't do, just by the nature of their business and products.

For example, show me a Sager reseller that offers on-site service, or one that underwrites its own service policies. They're simply reselling extended warranties by Philips/Magnavox, Warrantech, and similar companies, or by Sager itself (which I've heard is difficult to deal with--hence the popularity of the resellers). Very few offer whole-machine accidental damage coverage, and for the few that do, the total warranty is extremely expensive--not enough to make up the difference between the price of an XPS and that of a comparable Sager, but it narrows the gap.

On the one hand, a non-manufacturer/non-reseller warranty means that the policy will still be there even if the reseller folds or retires. On the other hand, if that does happen, it means you're stuck dealing with a professional warranty company with no clear interest in your repeat business, and possibly with shoddy repair operations like Micromedics. I've heard that can be more trouble than it's worth--a customer's wasted time can be more valuable than parts or labor.

My only point in these posts is that there's more to consider than just the price that appears when you click the "Add to cart" button. Personally, even if there were a hardware-equivalent XPS to the NP5790, I'd still go with the Sager and a reputable reseller, but that's because I'm confident in my ability to provide my own technical support and service for most problems, and I'm willing to take on the risk of accidental damage myself. If I were less experienced with maintaining hardware, or more concerned about my laptop being damaged (for example, if I had young children), I might at least give Dell a second look. I just think it's a bit naive to look only at the raw price and assume you're getting an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

Possibly I'm missing something, but I fail to understand what you mean by "reselling extended warranties by .." ?? Most resellers, to my knowledge, offer their own warranties, which they will cover themselves. I am also assuming that most of these companies will not fold in the lifetime of the laptop, and while that may be a bit naive, it's not really too bad of a bet. It does happen sometimes, such as with FlawlessNotebooks, however even then Sager will cover the rest of the manufacturers warranty, and their warranty service isn't half bad. IMO it's better than any other major companies consumer warranties, and it's not far behind the service level of some business class warranties.

I understand their's more to a laptop than the price tag, but in most areas Sager and Clevo (and their resellers) have Dell beat: build quality of the product, product testing and quality assurance, generalized customer service, technical knowledge of customer service representatives, etc. Yes, since they are small companies, they don't offer some things like in-home service, or accidental damage and theft protection (though the latter two can be gotten quite easily as an add-on on most private homeowner's insurance policies and such), but in most areas outside of price, it seems to me that Dell is the one lagging behind.

 

Not exactly, sager is a reseller just like Dell. Compal is an ODM, but I dont think they make computers for Dell. Quanta however is Dell's main computer manufacturer.

As for the OP, Dell will charge you too much for lower end components. The cheapest way to get a great laptop is to buy a barbone and build it yourself. Thats what resellers like sager and xoticpc does. They build computers and sell them. However, they use higher end components and are often much cheaper than big companies like Dell. As I posted in your original post, go for the Clevo M570ru, it will definitely fit your needs, and it'll come out at around 2500$ for a very high-end computer.

Forget about places like falcon-northwest and voodoopc, they are WAY overpriced and only rich people who like wasting their money on very fancy things buy from there.

Also, the clevo m570ru is very well built, better than most notebooks on the market.

 

According to Wikipedia (yes, yes... not the best resource), Compal *does* make computers for Dell. Some are wondering if the 1520 and the Sager 2090 are cousins.

 

Could be... but I didnt see anything about it on wiki, but its very possible. They rnt the main manufacturer tho.

 

Indeed, you are correct about Quanta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compal_Electronics

 

Wow, and I read this thing about 5 times in the past few months but I always missed the small "Dell" on the left side...

Thx!

I guess subconsciously I left out the "Dell" because of my hate for them and their overpriced junk!

 

Thanks for the lively discussion--I'm learning a lot. There's a couple things I could have made clearer in my OP:

I wasn't actually considering a Dell XPS 1710--it's just the only 17" laptop they have right now that's even in the ballpark w/the Sager 5790, and that's a pretty big ballpark. I do realize the Dell 1710 is 2 years old, and as a matter of fact, what brought me to notebookreview.com in the first place was to try to get info on when Dell might be releasing a Santa Rosa version of the 17" XPS. (See my posts in the Dell sub-forum.) I used the current 1710 more as a comparison to the fact that 2-year-old tech costs $900 more than spankin'-new Santa Rosa tech on the Sager.

While I don't want to jump into the lion's den on the whole warranty issue, I did check the support and warranty pages on 3 sites: sagernotebook.com, xoticpc.com, and powernotebooks.com. Here's what I found:

Sager has the call-back process, and email. Pretty much it. And Reseller Ratings had some pretty dissatisfied customers w/Sager (the reseller).

Xotic has this on their site:

Most laptops sold by Xotic PC carry a FACTORY WARRANTY and are serviced by the manufacturer during their normal warranty period. We also offer free support forum and a subscription-based Priority tech supoprt program with an On-site service option. (please view below for more information)

Please feel free to contact Xotic PC with any support issue. We will do all we can to assist you. However, please keep in mind, some issues (i.e., in-warranty repairs, replacement exchanges) are better handled directly with the manufacturer. ​

This tells me that Xotic will try to help w/a problem, and Reseller Ratings bears that out, but the actual repair will be done by the manufacturer--which I'm a little hazy on who that is: Sager, or Clevo?

Powernotebooks.com has this:

Our Customer Service representatives are available to take your call 24 hours a day 7 days a week for PowerPro, Crown and Sager laptops, and ASUS Technical Support is available from 6 AM to 6 PM Pacific Time Monday through Friday. Emails ([email protected]) are answered within one business day Monday through Friday only. For ASUS Online support please go HERE . For Technical Support and Warranty Service please call:

Telephone Technical Support
PowerPro (877) 944-4449
Crown (888) 551-5585
Sager (877) 774-1911
ASUS (888) 678-3688 Option 3
International (706)-403-4688
​

Again, it seems like there is a distinction between "Customer Service" and technical support.

Now, having said all that, I'm not a newbie when it comes to computer repair. The last commercial desktop I bought was from Dell (after years of buying from Gateway), and even tho the Dell desktop itself runs okay, I had a couple of minor technical issues that, after attempting to resolve myself, tried to get Dell to resolve. I say "tried", because after a certain period of time, they simply blew me off. Which is why my current desktop is one I built myself, and it was a real pleasure to hand-pick each component. While building it, it was also interesting to note that, while Dell and "name" brands offer a standard one-year warranty, almost every individual component I put into my desktop has a three-year warranty.

Would I prefer to build my own notebook? Oh, yes, very much. But a quick check just now on Newegg didn't turn up any barebone laptop cases. Someone mentioned in a post above about building my own notebook, so if that's possible, I'd be very interested in where one would get the parts.

Let me ask three questions of you Sager owners:

1) Does Sager/Clevo cut corners in any component in the notebook? Obviously, the Santa Rosa board is Intel, Xotic is open enough to actually name the HD maker (Seagate, Hitachi, etc.), and the video card is nVidia. And while we've established that all makers cut some corners... in the Sager, what about the power supply? The screen? The RAM? IOW, if I hypothetically had a same-spec Sager, a Dell, a Gateway, and an HP, and I opened them up and looked inside, would the "name" makers have better versions of the components I mentioned above (the ones w/the maker not listed)?

2) If I were to purchase a Sager (probably the np5790 if it was today), which of these three sellers would you say is the best to purchase from: sagernotebook.com, xoticpc.com, or powernotebooks.com? (I know "best" is subjective; what I mean by it is, who will ship the fastest once I place my order? Who will respond most quickly if I have an issue? Who will "run interference" for me w/the manufacturer for any warranty repair--if any of them will?)

3) If I did have a repair issue, do any of the resellers allow the customer to replace parts themselves? (Something I'd be comfortable doing; just have to get used to working inside a much smaller case than my huge Lian-li desktop!)

I definitely don't mean to insult any of you w/my questions; I just want to be well-informed. I looked for a review of the np5790 here, but didn't see one--hopefully one is forthcoming? I ask all these questions because, up until just a day ago, I thought I would be eventually purchasing a Dell. I had seen the name "Sager" a few times as I read and wrote posts in the Dell forum, but it wasn't until yesterday, when it was beginning to look like it was going to take Dell forever to intro a 17" Santa Rosa-based XPS, that I decided to see what else might be out there. So I went to the "What Laptop Should I Buy" sub-forum, answered the 15 or so questions, and sat back and started reading all the answers. That's when the Sager name started popping up.

I sat at the computer until the wee hours last night, looking at the three Sager resellers mentioned above, trying in vain to figure out how they could offer such a laptop for so much less than Dell.

It began to occur to me that the "name" laptop industry is coasting on the way laptops were made a decade or so ago--the small form-factor required different engineering to get all the components to fit, and much of each maker's laptop was more proprietary, than the more-standardized components today. IOW, the "names" are quietly doing something similar to what the diamond industry allegedly does: keeping prices artificially high. Does this sound about right?

Wow, I've really been rambling here--sorry. I get this way when I'm on a "mission" to learn something new. I appreciate everyone's help.

 

Review:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=146695

Xoticpc.com seems to have the lowest price, but rjtech.com sells barebones. Use google to find barebones (Search for Clevo M570ru, not sager... sager is just a brand, they dont make the laptop)

 

Here's a review of the M570Ru:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=146695
1) Clevo, in general, uses better components than Dell does. Things like the PSU, using Micron RAM (though most resellers let you pick a name brand), even littler things like TI firewire chipsets (though not on the M570Ru, I don't think), are in general much higher quality and much more thoroughly tested in a Clevo machine than in a Dell machine. Plus, sager will do additional quality assurance testing.

2) I would go with XoticPC.com, but that's just personal preference. However, in general smaller resellers are better with customer service than Sager itself is.

3)I believe it all depends on what the problem is. If you have a fried motherboard, they're going to want to take care of that for you. However if a RAM DIMM failed, you can probably just RMA the DIMM and insert the new one yourself. Also, you can always replace or upgrade parts yourself without voiding your general warranty, you don't have to go through your reseller or Sager for upgrades.

 

Check out Killernotebooks.com for a no BS warranty policy. Their version of the Clevo 570RU is the Executioner-SR. They even offer the Core 2 Extreme mobile chip. Right now they have the X7800 @ 2.6GHz unclocked in stock. During my last contact with them by email last week, I was informed that they'll have the X7900 chip, @ 2.8GHz unclocked, this week. Pretty sweet!

http://www.killernotebooks.com/executioner_sr/executionersr_order_page.html

K|N will cost you about $800 more than the Sager resellers. But the price includes a no dead pixel warranty (which you really don't need with the Sager's products anyway), the fingerprint reader integrated, as well as an OS software. I highly recommend K|N if your budget allows you to. But if your a techy who's great at fixing and installing your own stuff, get a barebone, or better yet, go with XoticPC or Powernotebooks.com You'll get a better price as well as first class customer service.

 

K|N are overpriced, but they do offer nice service (From what I've heard, I do not own a K|N laptop). They have custom cooling too, but IMO, its not worth the extra money... Unless u have too much money, in that case I'd take some

 

I think at this point it's just psychological on my part, which I guess means Dell and the "names" have been doing their marketing job well all these years.

From this post, I hear that Sager/Clevo is built as well or better than a Dell, for ~ 25% less. I hear that Dell doesn't even make their own laptops, but that a company like Clevo--or maybe not even as good as--does. I hear that I pay a premium just for the Dell sticker on the laptop, which from unremarkable personal experience w/a high-end Dell desktop, does nothing for me. I see that Xotic PC got a 10 on Reseller Ratings, Powernotebooks a 9.84, and Dell a 4.5.

My eyes have been opened, but still I hesitate. Yes, the "names" have done their job well. So why hesitate? I understand everything intellectually, and it is all reasonable and logical.

I wouldn't hesitate when the time came to build a new desktop--I'd just log on to Newegg and start ordering away. Maybe it's partly that I haven't owned, or needed to own, a laptop in probably a decade. Seriously, I have an old laptop around here somewhere, the last one I bought--it's a Compaq (not HP/Compaq) Pentium 150. Not a typo; the original Pentium chip, 150 MHz. (Cue the hysterical laughing from the audience.)

So I guess I should start by making a list of questions to ask the famous Justin at Xotic PC, take a few days and come up w/all the questions I feel I need to ask. (I say the "famous Justin" because--almost to a person--the reviews on Reseller Ratings mentioned him in glowing terms.)

That reminds me of a couple questions I wanted to ask about both Xotic and Powernotebooks: Xotic's website says they've been in business since 1999. Powernotebooks doesn't say (that I can find). Reseller Ratings has only 29 lifetime comments on Xotic, while there are over 1100 for Powernotebooks. Tho I'm leaning towards Xotic--partly because of the repeatedly-mentioned Justin and their more-together website--Powernotebooks is closer to where I live in Northern California. (Actually, they're about a 3-hour drive away.) How long has Powernotebooks been in business? And since these are small companies, what happens to the Sager warranty if the one I buy from folds?

Anyway, if anyone has any final words of wisdom to give me the final push I apparently need, fire away!

 

Basically, both xotic and powernotebooks are just sager resellers. If you buy a sager from them, if you ever happen to need your laptop sent in to be fixed, it would be sent to sager.

 

@oldcrank, If you do not care about graphics for games buy cheap and by Dell (good luck chasing down a working coupon). For instance this Dell is more than most people would need. We have Dells and a couple Compaq's and everyone loves them. I do not want them for me but the wife and kids can have them. It's all in what you expect and are accustomed to. If you want the best price/power/graphics relationship get the Sager/Compal that everyone is crying about not receiving. Buy from either Powernotebooks or Xoticpc. That's it.

You can come close with Dell in price/power/graphics but not close enough for me and I can't ever get those coupons to work on the one I would buy. If you don't get the coupons then the prices are truly ridiculous.

Actually I just ordered the Everex xt5000t until these Compal people get their act together and the people here start posting results. Then the Everex xt5000t goes to my grandson.

I am happily typing this on my old 5620 Sager. It just won't die.

Good luck.

PS: They are somewhat more than just resellers but all that has been talked about.