What exactly is "build quality" of laptops?

Well I'm a bit confused. I've had an HP and I have a Clevo and will buy another Clevo really soon, but I don't seem to understand what people say about build quality lately. Let me explain.

I thought build quality was durability, sturdiness and layout (of ports/keyboard). But I think everyone on these forums (and in many other places too) is thinking and talking about more. I've heard Alienware has the best build quality in at least the last year or so. I've known them to be flashy, shiny, and overpriced, but not to have fantastic sturdiness/reliability like my D900F has, for example. Then I hear that Clevo's are currently medium quality at best, but looking at the machines (unfortunately I do not own a current one yet) I don't see much of a problem, unlike when I looked at some older Acers at a previous job a few years ago and you could SEE the bad cooling and stupid placement of things on the keyboard and dumb screen hinge placement on some of them. I don't know.

TL;DR - I just want someone to explain the points people look for with respect to determining build quality for laptops so I'm not confused anymore. Do you reduce build quality rating if the audio jacks are at the side instead of the front etc? That kind of stuff.

 

Ever been in a Porsche? Seen the interior? Compare it to a Toyota corolla. That's build quality. Both are reasonably durable and sturdy.

Ever looked at an iPhone next to a Nokia 1100? That's build quality. Both are reasonably durable and sturdy.

Ever scored with a fit working-class girl? Ever scored with a fit upper-class pedicured/manicured girl? Both are ... nevermind, you get the picture

 

So it's mainly aesthetics and other stuff that really isn't important? Just how people find it's pleasing to the eyes?

Also, I've never seen an iPhone or Porsche in real life, so...
But that's good to know that it's mainly aesthetics/looks. That way I can ignore most bad build quality statements unless it directly is a neverending problem and/or annoyance *glares at clevos of 4 years ago with the FN and Ctrl keys swapped*

 

It's not just aesthetics. Unless you're a visitor from another planet or a time traveler from the distant past, you've probably more than once stood before two products that did the same (or similar) things, and one struck you as better made, of better materials, with better engineering and lay-out ..etc. It doesn't necessarily need to be "prettier" or more pleasing aesthetically (although to those who can appreciate the difference, a more premium build can be aesthetically pleasing as well).

 

Well that was with my original point with the sturdiness, durability, layout etc. "Better" materials isn't always readily apparent even though "different" is easily recognizable. My D900F is pretty much all plastic, but I've never felt a cooler machine with such a solid chassis. Nice internal layout and okay external port layout, this laptop was (and still is) fantastic in build quality to me. I don't need aluminum plating or anything for example.

As for the current Clevos, I see the touchpad leaves something to be desired but that's pretty much all I can see about it that isn't readily apparent that it should be directly fixed. So I just didn't get it.

 

What feels premium to you might not feel premium to someone else, so it can be subjective. I personally find my P170EM to be in the very low end of the premium scale. Others find it fairly average or better than average, but very few would argue it is better build than AW for example (which comes at a heftier price).

Build quality can come into play if you're a very mobile person (like college student), because hinges of a screen made with frail material will give out faster than a laptop that uses better more expensive plastic. It's also true that an appliance might "seem" more premium yet be more fragile and cheap, but to the experienced with an eye that's rare.

Another -bad - analogy: I don't spend much on vanity items, except leather wallets, and I find Hermès and Mont Blanc to be my personal favorite brands. Now some Mont Blanc wallets are just plain smooth black calf leather with the Mont Blanc star, and for those uninterested in wallets or leather products I'm insane because you can get a genuine leather wallet for 15 USD off the street, but I know that my 10 year old daily-used Mont Blanc retains more form, and looks better than his 1-month old cheap wallet which won't last more than a year before threads come out and it looks like some unrecognizable ball of bad leather.

Get it?

 

I know you gave your machine a low build quality rating. I know others leave it at average too. I understand about the hinges and stuff, but that's a direct problem. If after 1 month your screen keeps falling down that's poor build quality, of course. But then I always found Clevo machines to lack problems like those and things made by Acer/HP/Dell to quickly acquire them. So it surprised me to hear about them being medium at best.

As for subjectiveness that's another thing I gathered from your responses, which is why I'd made a point about aesthetics. As far as I'm concerned build quality is
- Does it work?
- Does it break easy?
- Does it have things placed in areas that make no sense?
- Does it do the job it's meant to?
- Does it burn up and die easy?

Anything else like lights or smooth feels etc are just bonuses. Granted they could rank higher, like how some people preferred the P150HM versus the P151HM1 a couple years ago for the rubberized finish and such of the P150HM, but that's still just aftertouches really. I'm not saying that paying for aftertouches are bad or shouldn't be done, but... "one who prefers form over function deserves neither" basically.

 

Alienwares are more sturdy because they use either a combination of aluminum alloy and high quality plastic, or in the case of the m18x, is completely made of anodized aluminum. On top of that, they have an amazing warranty where Dell will send a tech to your house next day to fix any problems instead of having to RMA it for miscellaneous stuff. My NP9170 on the other hand is made completely out of plastic.

As far as layout, the stock keyboard has the Fn 'Sleep,' in between 'Mute' and 'Volume Down.' You can kind of see the problem there. Then there's the fact that the disc drive is located on the right side where your mouse would be for most people.

Top it off with the fact that the Alienwares can disable switchable graphics via the BIOS while you have to live with it on the 9150/9170 (150/170EM).

Alienwares aren't really overpriced either. You'll see maybe a $100-200 difference on top end models, but that's including their awesome warranty.

 

Build quality, imo, is how well something is put together, not necessarily how well the notebook looks (e.g. some might not like the look of a thinkpad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have good build quality). Something with good build quality should have no gaps/creaks/flex, good durability, etc.

I would say Clevos have better than average build quality, but there are still some places that can be improved (e.g. the right palmrest of my p151em flexes a bit if I put just a little bit of force on it, the screen wiggles whlie typing, etc.)

 

Fit and finish of materials, the materials themselves, quality of heatsinks, display back bending, keyboard flex, shock resistance, all these and more give an impression of build quality when handled.

 

It's funny you say that, I'm looking at m17x with the same configuration as my np9150-- 1600$ vs 2200$. Don't forget the 75$ RAM upgrade from 6GB to 8GB. Don't forget the screen upgrade from 1600x900 to 1920x1080 (150$), nor the decent wifi card upgrade. Also, XoticPc (a Clevo reseller) provides the same 1 year warranty that Alienware provides, even free shipping both ways. Disabling Enduro through the bios is not a feature. The fact that it needs to be disabled for AMD cards to work means the issue is with AMD, not any notebook manufacturer.

I didn't intend to rant, but let's not cut corners or delude anyone, Alienware is overpriced. I would rate their build quality as above average (using my friend's m15x and my older xps m1530), but not 500$ more expensive above average. I would rate AW together with Clevo.

I believe this is the best definition, or at least most correct. Build quality should not take into account appearance, it is the general sturdiness, and ability to resist normal wear and tear. Also I don't have any of the issues you seem to have. It may just depend on what surface you're typing on.

 

My 4 year old Clevo, which has been through dozens of international flights and road trips. Which gets powered up as soon as I wake up and shut-downs only when I sleep... every day!
Which has been overclocked, used in extreme conditions where you could barely breath due to dust, which has never let me down when I need it all this time... and which, despite all this, still plays Dota 2 rather well... that's build quality IMO.

 

Ah but build quality really is related to how ALL the units are made rather than individual units.

 

That's a really good point. That's partially why I decided to go with Sager (a brand I'd only heard about, and never seen in person).

A good practice in my opinion to gauge build quality, is to go to forums like this or others using Google and just search for "Laptop X problems" or "Laptop X reviews." While reviews will only give you a taste of one laptop, by reading multiple reviews and looks at boards and forums, you'll get a good preview of what proportion of people have problems, and what some of the most common issues are.

I guess build quality though is just something you have to feel. For example, when I bought my Asus G53, it just felt solid and well-put-together. I feel the same about my Sager. Now, I understand there's no telling how long it will stay that way, but I guess it's just a risk depending on how well I take care of it.

Maybe build-quality is a bit like love

 

There is internal build quality (quality and reliability of internal components) and external build quality.

 

Only a fool would buy it straight from the website. Plus ram is easy to upgrade yourself.

Sent from my SGH-T999

 

Hmm my edit got screwed up. Interesting.

Sent from my SGH-T999

 

Yet you did not offer an alternative. Even XoticPc charges a little over 2000$.

Also, you are missing the point. RAM is easy to upgrade, so is the CPU and GPU. All things being equal, the AW is still overpriced since the components are nearly exactly the same price by themselves.

Edit: Or at least they should be the same price. My argument is that AW happily charges you 75$ for a RAM upgrade and 150$ for a screen upgrade to the standard high end gaming resolution of 1080p.

 

You can usually call Dell and get a $150-200 discount when ordering. Not only that, but the warranties are not the same. With Clevo/Sager, you have to RMA it for anything. With Alienware, they'll send a tech to you. Not only that, but ordering through Dell is often cheaper than buying from a third party reseller. Just look at xoticpc's price versus the price on Dell's site. Comparing the m18x, Xoticpc starts it at roughly $2200 while it's $2000 at Dell. Call them up and ask for an additional discount and there you go, that's about a $100-300 difference from the starting price of the NP9370.

Not only that, but look at what you said. You're comparing a 17" laptop versus a 15" one (m17x to 9150). You'll find the prices more comparable if you used the NP9170 instead.

Also, it was Dell's choice to allow the user to disable switchable graphics, regardless if it has problems or not. On any given day, you're going to see about a 5-10% performance decrease across the board while using some form of switchable graphics versus running straight off of the dGPU. This goes for both nVidia and AMD. Saying them building the laptop that way has absolutely nothing to do with build quality is asinine.

I like my 9170, but I'm not going to sit there and say the Alienware models are overpriced crap and deny the good qualities of them.

 

I don't understand why anyone would buy an Alienware from XoticPC for any reason.

$150-200? People have got more than 30% off on their Alienwares. I bought mine for much cheaper than a Clevo with the same specifications (including Dell's high-priced warranty). I am not so anxious that anyone should see my discount as an exceptional case as willing for people to notice that they are not stuck with the website price. Sure, it isn't common, and Dell's pricing practices are reprehensible, but other big companies like Lenovo and HP are no better.

I have no idea how well-built Clevos are, but keep in mind that you will see more complaints about Alienware's quality and reliability, because many people hate Dell, Alienware sells more units than Clevo, and its products have much higher sticker prices than Clevos.

 

Or for that matter the Razerblade, or Samsung series 7. Does anyone really look at them and think it's worth it when there are better things a click away?

 

Good build quality equals durability, sturdiness (includes various casing flex to be non existant, non-wobbly screen hinges), high precision craftsmanship, high quality of materials used, proper port placement, high quality of cooling system. Overdimensioning and using "over the top" quality of various internal electrical components, meaning they are more resistant to heat. Even solder used should be of higher quality. Using electrical components that have higher life span that those used in "consumer/multimedia/gaming" notebooks. Built according to various ISO or military standards with resistance to shock.

Usually everything from "business/workstation" lines are built to accommodate higher standards as main focus there is on reliability which can usually translate into durability. If you compare HP Elitebook, Lenovo (IBM) Thinkpad, Dell Precision to a random pretty much anything else you can notice serious difference in "build quality".

 

The internal components' quality is of paramount importance, and it's not easy to discern unless you have some familiarity with electrical appliances and industrial design. When my brand new power brick failed 10 hours after I first received the laptop from the US, I left no electric handyman without taking the brick to them for consultation. Comments about how cheap the circuits/capacitors..etc were divulged across the board and mind you, these guys were TV/DVD/Satellite receiver handymen who trained in India and Bangladesh. I wasn't getting opinions from BMW's head of robotic design in Munich.

Even the new brick which has been working ok since August (knock on wood), when left on the desk close to me in quiet surroundings (which is often because the wire is so short), emits a faint high-pitched sound that depends on .... wait for it .... how fast you move your external USB mouse (Razer DeathAdder). The more jerky you move the mouse, the more high-pitched the sound. Amusing, but definitely not an indicator of well-chosen and made components. You open the actual case and you see that both grills connected to the CPU and GPU heat sinks in an NP9170 are at least half a centimeter mal-aligned with the fan vents. There's no one who has done "the foil mod" (which is basically just taping the gap to facilitate better ciculation) who hasn't seen at least ~7 degrees celsius of improvement, which another example of shoddy build quality. This is not an AW vs. Clevo thread but unless we talk about the two brands we're most familiar with, we'll end up comparing cars or other equipment.

If you count the price of a replacement keyboard, replacement power brick (250 dollars, not to mention my lemon speakers) that oughta been replaced under warranty (wasn't possible because I would have to pay for shipping from/to the US, costing me more) then I've reached AW prices minus the warranty (which is international, we have a Dell agent/distributor/maintenance center here). I should not have underestimated the importance of a comprehensive warranty specially when buying high-end components, but alas the build quality did come into play in a very expensive way and very soon in the laptop's life.

The exterior is the tip of the iceberg, but if you really want to discern it you must give your specific laptop model a couple of years of heavy usage before making a judgment on build quality to see how it aged.

 

Even with 90% gamut screen upgrade (and other components the same as the AW), the np9170 is still 400$ cheaper than a m17x on xoticpc. That's even without the instant 50$ off the Sager.

Also, the reason you see a higher starting price from xoticpc is because they already include the upgrades from dell that should have been standard in the first place. Example: the 1080p screen.

Also, I'm not sure where the 10% performance decrease is coming from when using Optimus. The Lenovo y580 (optimus) achieves a 2300 3dmark11 score while the Asus G55vw (no optimus) receives 2297 (well within the margin of error between runs), so I believe that may have been true for older driver's but not anymore. Enduro is a completely separate case however, where I still believe that is more AMD's fault than Alienware's "feature." If Nvidia can achieve 0% or negligible performance hit, then so can AMD.

And having to call the representatives to haggle over a laptop to bring it to a more reasonable price isn't really a plus, that's more evidence that it's overpriced to begin with and that AW already realizes it.

I'm not trying to say that Alienware laptops are bad or in any way inferior, I'm only trying to say that they charge more than they should and just because they are more expensive does not equate to a better build quality. The warranty is definitely nice, but that should only work out to maybe 100$ more.

That's the same thing Cryo said, so I ask again, "how and/or where did you get that discount?"

I actually hadn't heard of Sager since I joined these board and I would bet that the vast majority of people don't know what Clevo or Sager is and definitely would not trust a computer brand they've never heard of. Alienware is more or less considered the go-to brand for a gaming computer so I think most of the cost goes into buying the brand which is just an imaginary title.

 

You haggle with resellers over a Clevo purchase too. I received no less than 3 separate discounts that I cited, discussed ..etc, with the sale rep, and the final invoice was edited 3 times.

I think the lack of screen options is a major thing AW must point its attention to because I know I'm not going back to glossy screens no matter what (thanks to the Chi Mei screen on my P170EM), but matte/glossy aside just looking at my reseller's latest prices and comparing them to AW, the 7970M/1080p basic m17x is 1849 US dollars (before any discounts), with 6GB of RAM and a 500GB HDD. If you buy some 256GB SSD and 16GBs 1866MHz RAM from 3rd party you're looking at around 2100 USD (again, before any discounts). The NP9170 from Mythlogic with the same specs is 1968 dollars (before discounts). That's a little less than a 150 USD difference for the same specs and a far better warranty and build from AW.

One might argue that the 3rd party RAM and SSD are not covered by the AW warranty but that really indicates some ignorance as to how warranty works. I once had a WD HDD that went bust on me and HP at the time claimed the HDD was damaged due to trauma (which might've been true although I don't remember ever dropping it), I just e-mailed WD with the diagnostic results and I got sent a better new HDD no questions asked. I don't care about AW warranty (for the RAM and SSD) if the components I buy are covered by good ODM warranties, which they always are.

No one would deny that AW overcharges for extras, but I would assume that anyone who needs AW performance would know better than to tick every box on their site.

 

Build quality to me is just durability. That's all. Fit and finish? That's just subjective opinion. For example, Corolla is a much better ride than a Porsche. Porsche among the most uncomfortable cars made. Some Porsche, the suspension is so stiff and tight, you'd think the car was made to destroy your spine. As can see, that's just subjective though. And the shifting and acceleration is not smooth at all, it's very jerky. It's not a comfortable ride in any way. At least from my experience, and that with both Audi and Porsche. I'd rather drive a Corolla for an everyday ride. I don't need my butt beaten to mush and shoulders jerking into the seatbelt every time the car shifts gear.

If the laptop lasts five years, the build quality is superb. That means the chassis, the motherboard and components were all put together and made well. Plain and simple. At least to me.

 

That's why many here on NBR think AW are scum, bunch of liars. The sales rep can't just bargain with you nilly willy. They are explicitly told how much they can be haggled with, how low they can go, that is the REAL price. What does that tell me? It means AW is a scummy company. This is not a fricken car. The price they give to anyone who doesn't know to haggle, is a false price, it's a fricken lie. The real price is the haggle price. But you'd have to read about haggling with scum sales people to know that. It's stupid. Car sales not the same since everyone knows you're supposed to bargain for the best price.

Online for most websites now, they have a section where they list all the promo codes. It's right there for everyone to see. With AW? Nope. There are no instructions on their site that says, the price shown is a lie, you must haggle with our scum sales reps to get the real price. No fine print that says, that is just the fake price, please haggle with scum to get the actual price. So unless you go on NBR and usually after you forked over 30% more than the actual price, you don't' find out until you see NBR members bragging about how awesome they are haggling with sales reps.

And even then, AW doesn't offer what Clevo does. There is no monster 15" or 13" notebook from AW. And the recent special that was running? I don't care how much you haggle with scum at AW, you're not going to get a 680M with all the extras for $1500 like you could with Sager.

 

Why do you keep calling them "scum" and liars? Very few reputable computer companies do individual basis discounts because business would be very hard to run that way. It's a different matter with Clevo resellers which mostly consist of 3 guys in a room with a phone, that get bulk rates from Sager. Nevertheless, AW does offer some deals if you do the leg work through your mouse and a couple of clicks.

On a side note, if you live in an area of town where the roads would cause your spine to break riding a Porsche, you have no business buying a Porsche in the first place The stiff handling is not a shortcoming, it's a necessary plus to safely control the car around corners at high speeds. That's kinda like saying: "Gaming laptops are very heavy, large, and their batteries run out in a couple of hours compared to MacBook Air laptops". Well that's begging the question isn't it?

 

Yay, another "Alienware is overpriced" argument. I'd like to ignore it, but NBR is slow tonight

Alienware laptops are only more expensive than comparably equipped Sagers up to a certain price point. For example, once you start getting into the range of an NP9170 with 680m, processor upgrade (3740qm+), etc. the difference in negligible. My old M17x r4 with i7 3740qm/680m and 2 year warranty with accidental coverage came out to $2.3k after tax. Building a similar NP9170 with similar components would at the time would have been around $2.1-2.2k. The NP9170 has worse build quality (all plastic chassis vs. plastic and magnesium in the M17x), worse BIOS support (no unlocked BIOS, limited options for overclocking and tweaking), no switchable graphics (which is still a "feature" regardless of what you say), and better cooling (wayyy better cooling lol.)

Let's go with one more example. My current M18x 680m sli, 3740qm, and 4 year warranty was exactly $3k after taxes. Build a similar NP9370 from Xoticpc and an inferior 3 year warranty would be a little over $3,080. The NP9370 comes with 2gb more ram (which I upgraded to 1866 HyperX anyway) and 250gb more hdd space (didn't need anyway), while the M18x came with a full anodized aluminum chassis, much better cooling, far better warranty, better BIOS, etc etc etc.
Not only does it have better build quality and aesthetics, it's a much better performance notebook. The NP9370 is a beast, but you don't see any of them reaching 14k to 15k+ in 3DMark 11 like the M18x. It's an objectively inferior machine, yet Sager still charges as much for it as Dell does for the M18x. Sure, I had to spend 15 minutes on the phone with a rep to get a discount for a few hundred bucks, but I would have paid the full price if I didn't have the option to get a discount. I (and many others like me) will happily pay more for these features, which is why Alienware is the largest gaming notebook brand on the planet.

You believe the Dell warranty should only be $100 more than Sager's? LOL. My 3 year old base model M11x r1 died last week. Dell is replacing it with a brand new M14x with an i7 3740qm, 16gb ram, 2gb 650m, and 900p screen. How often does Sager do that when their machines die? Hint: Never. Dell does this for every one of their systems. There are people with M17x r2s getting brand new decked out M18x r2's when their machines die or they accidentally spill coffee on it. I accidentally broke a clip on my mobo while installing an ssd the day I got my M18x, and Dell sent out a tech to replace the motherboard the very next day. They do this for any issue you may have. I don't know about you, but I'd happily pay more for a warranty that prevents me from ever having to send my laptop in for repairs (and be without a laptop for weeks) and replaces my defective or broken machine with a brand new model with better specs.

Still think they're overpriced? Your loss I guess. They do overcharge for their ram and hdd upgrades, which is why most people upgrade those components themselves (which is cheaper than paying for upgrades from Sager as well) but their computers are actually very competitive for such a premium product. No one else offers the same build quality, performance, or warranty for a similar price. Hell, no one offers a similar machine at all.

I like Sagers. I think they make great machines, especially in the sub $1600 price range. But calling AW overpriced is pretty ridiculous when Sager charges just as much for their higher end machines.

Ignore him. He calls pretty much everyone and everything "scum" or "chumps." he's what I like to call a "serial whiner." Pretty much all his posts are complaints or trolling. He's actually a smart guy, and I used to agree with most of his posts, but I've started trying to avoid them for the most part lol.

 

Normally to form a convincing argument bias should be left out, but I will humor you and respond as well. For starters, AW will not even come close to touching the price of a nicely DISCOUNTED Sager, it just won't happen......you are comparing your discounted AW price to a website configuration, make much sense? Didn't think so.......... For the warranty aspect Dell does have Sager beat, but don't paint a picture of rainbows about Dell's support or service, there is a reason so many people "hate" Dell. When you have a great rep and great service you can have a wonderful experience with Dell, however all to often you get stuck with reps that don't care, don't speak english, or just plain don't hold up warranty issues until you speak with a manager. Before you say AW support is different, it's not, I've owned one as well and an XPS and there is zero difference between the 2 when dealing with support issues, as you still have to deal with the pains of outsourced support.

As for the performance issue, you are using a mark which holds no relevance to "real world" gaming, Alienware might top out higher but unless you are buying the system strictly to break overclocking benchmarks then you are not going to a see difference, nobody will be able to maintain those high frequency clocks while gaming regardless of what machine you have.

Alienwares are nice machines but seriously please use some logic here when comparing the two, when you buy an Alienware you are paying a large premium for the name and extras that come along with it. Build quality after a point does not matter, whether it's extremely sturdy plastic or aluminium makes no difference, unless you plan on assaulting somebody with it. As for the hinges argument that somebody made, the 150EM has the best hinges (beats Alienwares by a mile in terms of sturdiness) I have ever seen on a laptop. Also I'm interested in where you get your sales numbers for Alienware being the largest gaming notebook seller, I would argue that there are probably more Clevo "whitebooks" out on the market than there are Alienwares by a fair amount, but of course there are no hard numbers to support either case.

To me it seems like you are trying to justify what you bought instead of looking at the pros and cons of each brand, there's a reason both have a large following...........but if we went by your logic Alienware would be only brand with any market relevance, which it isn't .


EDIT: It seems like getting a discount isn't as easy as you say it is either, simple proof is just looking at the megathread in the AW forums where people are only being offered standard discounts after many tries.......

 

Awesome, we get to continue our debate from a while back in the AW section

To begin, one does not need to be without bias to present a logical argument, but he must prevent his bias from clouding objective reason and fact. We're all biased in many ways... your bias happens to lie with Clevo, mine with Alienware. My previous post, while biased, only contained factual evidence. I didn't make anything up or lie about any experience with Sager or Dell.

Secondly, I was comparing a discounted M18x to a list price NP9370 because I'm not aware of way to receive a discount on Sagers. You may get lucky when contacting a certain reseller, or you may know someone that works for a reseller, but you cannot simply call any reseller and instantly receive a 15 to 30% discount by phone. From my experience, there are relitively frequent online specials and small discounts, but if any of those were available when I priced the comparable Sagers. At the time I priced them, there was the 3% rebate for cash transactions (which I included,) but no other price discount. Even if you're one of the lucky ones (which are a tiny minority) to receive a discount off the website's listed price, it still wouldn't come close to bringing an NP9370 down substantially in price... you wouldn't, for example, get a 20-30% discount.

Secondly, I did not "paint rainbows" or otherwise misrepresent Dell's service. Dell, like any other seller, does not have perfect customer service. I have had minor issues with rude or misinformed Dell reps, just like I have with a certain reseller that I ordered my previous Sagers from. They are far from perfect, but claiming that there are Dell reps that don't speak English is simply wrong. You may speak with someone from Indonesia or the Philippines, but they always speak fluent English and are easy to understand. I highly doubt you, or anyone else, has ever called Dell and spoken with someone who didn't speak English. In the incredibly unlikely chance that that did occur, it would be due to a technical error, not because Dell goes around hiring reps that don't speak English (which is a ridiculous argument.) I didn't claim that Dell's tech or phone service is superior to Sager's, just that its warranty support is much better (which it obviously is.)

Third, I did not "LUCK out" with my replacement system. Dell always replaces with an equal or better machine. It's contractually obligated. They do not frequently keep machines of previous model years in stock (this can be proven by going on the Dell outlet and looking for older models... they are extremely rare.) This means that if you own an older system that has multiple component failures, it is most likely you will receive a new or refurbished machine of the current model year. I can name many examples from owners in the AW section. It happens a lot, even with systems that are less than a year old.

I used logic in my argument: I could have paid around $3k for an NP9370 with inferior warranty, inferior cooling, inferior BIOS support, inferior build quality, and inferior performance. Instead, I paid $3k for the M18x. Does that sound "illogical" to you?

What does sound illogical is calling all those features "little extras" (15k vs 13k in 3DMark 11 is far from "little") and saying that build quality "after a point" does not matter (LOL). Sounds like you're really trying hard to ignore the obvious benefits to going AW in order to justify your brand of choice.

As for your last point, I thought it was common knowledge that AW was the largest performance notebook manufacturer in the world. Hell, it says it on the front page of the NBR forums I would like to see your numbers proving Clevo is a larger manufacturer though. Here's a fact: look at the average number of users in the AW forum vs the numbers in the Clevo/Sager forum. There are more AW owners here. Far from scientific, but you could use it as a sample for notebook enthusiasts worldwide. You could do the same with ebay, craigslist, amazon, etc: compare the number of AW notebooks for sale with the number of Clevos. It's the same there, too.

 

Yeah, I don't hate AW. I don't care for their looks, but I know they make a good product. I believe you're right that past a point the price difference becomes negligible, but that's only because the 2 or 3-thousand you would be spending is vastly larger than the 200-300$ "AW premium." And this would be more and more negligible at higher costs.

I will also agree that adding parts yourself or even performing services such as repasting or adding copper cooling will always be cheaper if you do it yourself. The thing that bothers me is options like the 75$ RAM upgrade when you can purchase much more for lower cost. It begs the premise of "Let's prey on people that don't know any better." AW is synonymous with gaming and high-end due to marketing and advertising, not everyone is going to know better.

And I'm sorry but how do two separate machines with identical insides not compare in 3dmark scores?

Also I would argue that cooling comes out to a draw, while many Bios features are available through aftermarket flashes and custom vbios anyway. Like the dell 680m vbios that could not be overclocked until flashed with a clevo vbios.

I wish that 3-year warranty applied to my old xps m1530 that died multiple times to the lemon 8600m gt GPU debacle becoming a fireball that destroyed my motherboard. Maybe I'm still bitter lol.

 

Looks are totally subjective. I used to look down on AW's styling (and their owners lol) as childish, but once I saw one in person I fell in love with the build quality and materials. Nebula Red may be kind of "loud" but I still think it's gorgeous whenever I close the lid. I do draw a line though: I always stick with one uniform lighting color (usually red or blue) and I disable the touch pad light. It looks cleaner that way.

And I agree about the ram and hdd upgrades. It would be more ethical and consumer-friendly to price them competitively, but in the end they're a for-profit corporation, and unfortunately capitalism can lead to greedy business practices.

When I said BIOS support earlier, I meant the acutal BIOS, not vbios. Clevos have the same vbios mods that AW does, but their BIOS is painfully limited. With an AW, you can easily flash an unlocked BIOS that gives you extensive processor overclocking options. This means that the 3920/40XM cannot be properly overclocked like they can with the M18x, essentially crippling overclocking potential. Cooling does come into play as well. The NP9370 is widely known to have issues with GPU cooling, especially with the 7970m. The M18x has a stronger cooling system, meaning that the CPU and GPU can be overclocked further without throttling. The M18x has consistently been the record holder for laptop benchmarks. Currently Johnkss has the record with 15,300 in 3DMark11 and over 50,000 in Vantage, but there are many other M18x owners with awesome benchmarks as well (Mr. Fox and Harlon21 come to mind.) I haven't done a lot of research into NP9370 benchmarks, but I've never seen one hit 14k (though somebody might have.) I'm positive it won't approach the M18x with its locked BIOS and cooling problems though.

Of course, overclocking doesn't matter to everyone. Some people are fine using their machines at stock clocks, and the NP9370 is great for that. At this level of the game though, lots of people want the very most performance possible, hence spending 4 or 5k on laptops lol

 

Oh really? Why don't you show me a single P170EM owner who managed to unlock the BIOS to enable ... say ... overvolting the GPU or CPU?

Huh? Scroll up. I compared a basic config P170EM/7970M with an AW and the price difference is less than 150 dollars. Even if I get no AW discount whatsoever, and all the Sager discounts there are (usually around ~100 dollars depending on season) that's still ~240 USD, which is a far cry from 400-600 USD everybody is touting. If you're amateur enough to get all the extras from the manufacturer then you deserve to get ripped off. I paid 40 dollars for an extra GPU/CPU fan each just in case they fail on me. I highly doubt the fan from the manufacturer costs 40 bucks, more like 10 if you're buying bulk, but I'm not complaining because I had no other choice. With AW you simply buy your SSD and RAM from Amazon or Newegg. How is that a major calamity? Yes there's a premium on the brand name, but the brand name is considered premium for the reasons failwheeldrive cited.

So ... unless it's a WASP named Steve service automatically becomes bad?

You're saying this in a forum filled with people shelling out thousands of dollars for the very high end flagship components. I think you might have lost your way to the Lenovo or Acer forums

Let me guess, that "point" is conveniently where Clevo's quality ends and AW starts, right? Tell me more about logic and bias please

Your carelessness in reading English disqualifies you from the discussion long before we get to the topic at hand. I mentioned the hinges but I was giving a general example about laptops as a whole and what might constitute an aspect of build quality that can affect a user's experience, when the OP dismissed it as "aesthetics". Try to focus when others put in the effort to explain things to you.

 

Actually Alienware would still be my preferred choice, but they did away with gaming machines below 17inches, so no my bias is not with Clevo. So wait, you're telling me that it's an accurate comparison to compare a discounted product with one that isn't then call them equal?.........I can see I'm not going to change much in your mind by arguing with you but here's some food for thought, many of the resellers offer their own discounts which you get by *gasp* calling or emailing them, personally I got ~15% off my 150EM which brought it below $1400 shipped, just tack on another $50 and you have the price of a 170EM.......which at my specs on release was about $500 cheaper than AW, if you include the 20% discount + tax you come out at just over $1700 almost $300 more even with the most common discount percentage. Again, you are using performance numbers that hold absolutely no gaming performance weight, you aren't gaming at those clocks so unless you bought you machine like Mr. Fox and Jonhkss strictly for breaking OC records then once again you argument makes little sense.

Your example of a warrantied replacement was of a product which its line was discontinued, that's where you get the "nice" upgrades, M11x, M17x/M17xR2...........You aren't going to see someone with a R3 suddenly getting a decked out R4, they'll get a refurbished R3 which there are plenty of.

As for the size of Alienware they are no doubt the largest company as they are a PART of Dell, however I was referencing the # of units sold which there aren't a lot of numbers to go off of unfortunately. Alienware actually used to use Clevo shells for their products not that long ago.........there's also Falcon northwest and Origins, both are big names in the "premium" computer industry.

You really seem to be mistaking my criticism of Alienware for contempt, in all likelihood I'll own an Alienware again someday when they offer a product that fits my needs.

 

The vast majority of people that buy either product are buying them to game with, not set benchmark records...............if you believe otherwise then well, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale if you are interested :hi2:

The "point" where quality matters conveniently ends when you have a product that functions to it's fullest until it becomes obsolete without failing due to wear and tear or hardware degradation. Which as far as I can tell is no different between the 2 products.

As for your last point, we can engage in ad hominems all night if you wish, but my statement about the hinges still stands as my opinion.

 

No one brought up Clevo hinges as being bad on this thread. Your reading comprehension was inaccurate, that's a factual statement and not an ad hominem.

Synthetic benchmarks are synthetic benchmarks we all know that, but they are a rough measurement for how well your card is doing rendering graphics. That might be relevant to some games, some titles, some cards, and it might not for others, but to entirely dismiss it is unfounded.

Both Failwheeldrive and I have cited two machines, one in the ~3000$ range and one in the ~2000$ range and in both cases the Clevo was either only slightly cheaper or even more expensive in Failwheeldrive's example. For you to come and pull out some anecdotal evidence about how you got a 20-30% discount is a bold claim indeed, since almost everyone here is a Clevo owner and most of us got like ... 50 bucks off the machine for being over 1500 dollars, and another 50 for being an NBR member. You're claiming far more than that as if it was the rule of the thumb, it isn't, and I'm not going to take your word for it since I negotiated with various resellers and bought a Clevo machine myself.

After all those walls of texts repeating the same argument incessantly and relentlessly won't make it true.

Preferring plastic over anodized aluminum (or claiming there is no difference) is your opinion, but I think you'll be at pains to find like-minded people. Moreso, by your criteria almost every laptop model by every laptop company goes beyond that "point". My budget Acer lasted me 6 years with rough use, but I wouldn't argue it is better built than my subsequent Sony Vaio even if neither broke. Apparently that's exactly what you want to argue, which really negates the whole point behind comparing different degrees of build quality. Keep digging though.

 

I never said anyone claimed that the Clevo hinges are bad, I simply noted their sturdiness to support my statement of quality........that doesn't warrant a "disqualification" from the discussion, and by they way that is an ad hominem (wiki it). As for my discount it is no more anecdotal than any other, especially since the amount in which AW's are discounted vary so greatly and rarely have I seen anyone claim a 30%. Synthetic benchmarks are a rough measurement yes, but the levels of OCing you and Failwheel are citing are not even close to being sustainable in games, therefor they have no relevance to the subject

Regardless of which material people prefer the protection conveyed by both is quite sufficient to protect the hardware inside, which is part of the build quality arguement :thumbsup:

 

I never mentioned OCing, failwheeldrive did, here we go with the reading comprehension again .You said that the 3dMark11 scores of his AW SLI machine outstripping the NP9370 with identical specs was irrelevant since it's just a benchmark result and not real-life gaming.

Well ... here's a little test of your hypothesis: Out of all the GPUs you can find 3dMark11 results for, how many of those do not show very similar differences in real fps gaming (provided drivers are stable and mature) commensurate with the differences in the benchmark results? Pretty much none.

Benchmarks do not equal gaming, but they're a good indicator of not only gaming performance, but system and driver stability, cooling performance ..etc, and the AW beats the Sager in all of the above, sometimes barely, and sometimes by a wide margin. You're not even denying that but arguing that we shouldn't care because those buying high-end parts mostly don't care about benchmarking and OCing, just stock gaming. Nonsense.

 

Yes, I believe that's fair. I called three different resellers when ordering my Sagers, and none of them offered me a discount beyond what was on the website... not even an NBR member discount. I tried. If it's not readily available to those who call, then it's not really comparable to the discount AW offers. I never read or hear about heavy discounts on Sagers, while everyone knows about the AW discounts. Even so, throw in a 10% discount (which the majority of people don't get) on a $3,080 NP9370 for argument's sake, and it's still almost $2800. Wow, $200 less than the M18x that is built better, offers a longer and better warranty, and most importantly performs better. Sounds like a killer deal, I really should have done that instead. People get 30% discounts on the higher end systems all the time, but it takes less than a 20% discount to bring an m18x down to the same price range as an NP9370.

As for your argument saying that newer systems don't get replaced with better/later, you're wrong. http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m18x/715082-alienware-exceeds-expectations-me-appreciation-thread.html This is one of the numerous examples of someone buying a new system that had issues, so Dell upgraded the GPUs for him. I didn't need to search for any of the many threads where people talk about getting better replacements for faulty systems, since this thread is from today. There's another member I can think of off the top of my head that had his faulty M17x r3 replaced with an r4 with a better processor, extra warranty, and GPU. It's not limited to older systems. Even if it were, you're missing the significance of this policy. If you buy a new AW today, it's most likely to run into issues several years down the road (GPU failures, wear, accidents, etc.) and by then AW is likely to replace it with the future model. That's why I paid for a four year warranty... I want to be covered in the case that something goes wrong down the road when my computer is worth next to nothing.

Benchmarks absolutely are relevant to performance. I can easily run games at the CPU/GPU overclock that produces 14k in 3DMark 11. The benchmark record (15.3k) isn't practical for everyday performance, but it's still representative of the system's limits and its overclocking/cooling ability. I guarantee you an M18x could run a much higher stable CPU and CPU gaming overclock than an NP9370 could.

Build quality goes beyond just "lasting a few years." Beyond the structural and aesthetic benefits, which system will be more likely to scratch, collect fingerprints, or break if it were dropped? I'm pretty sure it's not the anodized aluminum.

If you actually followed that logic when buying a car, you would have purchased a Civic instead of your TSX. The Civic will last just as long, is just as practical, an performs similarly (well, if you get a K20z3 powered si lol.) Instead, you went with better styling, build quality, materials, and comfort. That's the idea here: it's not just about durability, it's about quality engineering and excellent quality.


I'm not questioning your decision to get your Sager. If your budget was $1300, then it was the right move. I'm talking about higher end models here... Alienware offers tons of benefits over the competition for those who are willing and able to pony up the price of admission. When it comes down to paying $3k for either an NP9370 or an M18x, it's not a difficult decision to make lol.

 

My apologies, this was completely my fault. I had bad experiences with Dell/AW in the past and that skewed my judgement.

It's just my opinion that many of the same tools that apply to AW users also apply to Clevo users, such as custom bios (ex. Prema's) or custom vbios (svl7's, etc, anyone with nibitor and nvflash). Even limitations as well. Sandy and Ivy bridge CPU's cannot be overvolted to a significant degree unless you have an XM CPU. Sure there are the bios mods that add a few Mhz, but nothing short of physical mods will get you much freedom. Vbios allow you a little more freedom, but it's still based on voltage tables. Maybe I just need to do more research but I didn't realize there was such a large difference between AW and Clevo cooling, which will definitely allow more head-room for overclocking. Especially considering AW PSU's come a little beefier which would be really helpful.

I just feel like with so many laptops using the same OEM equipment such as wifi cards, CPU's, or GPU's, there's so little different between brands aside from aesthetics and other details. I guess at a certain price point, laptops become a vanity item (this applies to any manufacturer) where no matter the cost, people will want a certain model.

Maybe I'm just fooling myself into thinking I don't need a warranty because I'll have the ability to fix anything that comes up. Famous last words right? You'd probably see me within the day asking for help on the forums.

 

@Vahlen

Ferrous Cranus



(Not an ad hominem, just a playful joke )

 

I'm starting to think it's you with the reading comprehension problem. The examples of OCing used were of very high frequencies which although do translate to higher fps would in reality not be usable for any significant amount of time, that fact renders them irrelevant when talking about gaming. I understand that I am arguing with 2 people who dislike Clevo, so I obviously don't expect you to agree with any of my points.

However, if we were to go by both of your logic then there is no reason to buy a Clevo machine over an Alienware..........which I think you will find is an opinion that is pretty widely rejected

 

Don't worry about it. I get confused too when I'm arguing against multiple people. My points are similar to failwheeldrive's but not identical. A 680M in an AW with stock settings does slightly better than in a Clevo, same goes for the 7970M in an HM series Clevo (to neutralize the Enduro issue). OCing it in an AW only magnifies the difference in build and component quality.

There is a reason to get a Clevo over an AW depending on the specs and the specific deal you get, but it only comes down to price in relation to the perceived importance of "build quality", and it also depends on when you get it and where you live, but we're clutching at straws now to defend Clevo

I don't hate nor like it. I was able to afford an AW but didn't get it thanks to people like you portraying Clevo as the "underground enthusiast bargain" in relation to the "gimmicky cartoony rip-off AW", so I made it a point whenever I'm on the forums to combat this portrayal to save other new buyers from making an ill-informed decision. If someone came and told me they can only afford a 1500 dollar machine period, and/or can not have a laptop that looks like AW, then by all means, I recommend the Clevo

 

That sums the argument up fairly well, if people would just stick to using the Dell warranty as the reason they chose AW then it would be understandable..........but they have to bring in all these extra "advantages" that are largely irrelevant for most people to what the notebook was purchased for.

 

What he summed up quite well was the fact that the difference between various computer companies once you leave the identical OEM equipment to the side, is precisely the "extra advantages" you scoff at that people should pay attention to (Keyboard, sound, peripherals, warranty, cooling, finish..etc), otherwise all laptops of the same specs are identical as long as they don't mysteriously disintegrate or spontaneously combust within the first two years.

I suppose when all else fails, declare yourself the winner anyway

 

Not at all your fault, we've been having this same argument for years

To be completely honest, I'm not totally sure about the BIOS support for the NP9370... I didn't even realize Prema had an NP9370 mod. From what I've read, Sager's BIOS options are extremely limited for XM CPUs, preventing the user from altering Flex, Pri Plane, C-states, wattage, etc., so XM processors don't reach their full OC potential. I suppose I could be totally wrong though, it's just what I've read here on the forum lol. The NP9370 benchmarks I've seen tend to be much lower than comparable M18xs, so that influenced opinion on the matter as well. It would be nice if an NP9370 owner could chime in and educate me on the matter though

Once again, I don't dislike Clevo, I think they're the best option for certain budgets. I just disagree with the idea that AW is overpriced, or that AW doesn't offer meaningful advantages over the competition.

I don't think AW is perfect... their screen options suck (aside from the pretty sweet 120hz 3D option on the M17x) compared to Clevo, I've had issues with customer service, and they overcharge for certain upgrades. But they still have great features, like the ability to disable switchable graphics, their great build quality, and excellent warranty coverage. If you don't care for any of that, then that's fine. I would have killed to be able to disable Enduro on my 7970m NP9150 though, so it's not "irrelevant" to me lol. Neither is the awesome overclocking that gives me 30%+ higher framerates while gaming. Neither is the sexy aluminum skin, or good keyboard, or nice lighting... I lurv my Alienwares

 

On last page you were discussing Warranty Service. There is one thing about it - on the internet you cant find accurate information about how many people had issues with servicing their notebook- Why? Unhappy people are the ones who will go online and bash company that is giving them issues. For pretty much every product you can get "interesting" feedback if you just type into google "product xyz problems". That way you will get loads of bad experiences. This is simply to how we as people work. You dont see me making thousands of posts about how my elitebook is awsome. I've made 1 or two. While someone who has problem with one will visit 10 forums to try to solve his issue or to bash the company.

As i worked as a service tech at a random computer store in croatia - build quality (as i said in some few pages ago) comes down to workstation->business->"gamer"->rest.

I cant comment on build quality of Clevo/Sager/AW as those machines are not offered in my country but as far as industry design/standards go and a general rule of tumb they aim for the same market and should/are of pretty much equal quality and reliability as latter extends far more than just a type of materials used for casing.

Getting more/longer warranty for ANY notebook is something you should aim for regardless of manufacturer. I've often offered and tried to convince people to buy that extra warranty from 1 to 3 years which was usually less that 10% of the total notebook cost and they all had friends who said "if it lives tru first year it will live tru 3" - you dont wanna know how many of them were wrong and now are basing their ex companies.

Example: You just cant explain to people that Lenovo(IBM) got famus for its Thinkpad line and their reliability and you cant put Ideapad or anything else into same bucket and expect it to be built by same standards. Now they purchased random Ideapad - treated it like they would treat Thinkpad and wonder why hinges broke - why is it overheating when they have it on the bed... Their conclusion was: Lenovo sucks - they ruined IBM.

And for people that got screwed by tech support - one too many times people lied on the internet - note that i'm not claiming that everyone lies and there are no bad service techs. You always want to make customer happy - but there is a line like with everything in life. I've seen few melted sockets in my time, litteraly blown VRM's - Bad bios flashes and not to mention various liquid spills all tried to be hidden under "It just stopped working".

 

If money was no object I would currently have an alienware M18X and an 11 inch clevo

Alienwares are the only ones capable of running 2133mhz memory, running the GTX680M much above 1ghz and the 3940xm above 4.2ghz. They are on the large size however so for longer trips the clevo offers a big punch while being portable.

 

I really like the NP6110 too. I wish Alienware would fit the M14x's hardware into a notebook with the same dimensions as the M11x. They could even fit the 12.5 inch 1080p screen from the XPS 12 in it. I would buy one in a heartbeat.