result of a call to PCMW

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?p=3587884

This might be of use, if it hasn't already been posted here.

 

Okay, Shyster lets just both stop giving the people a show here.

I attempted to prove a point, you worked much harder to disprove it than I am willing to do to prove it. And I sincerely commend your commitment to excellence in facts in arguments such as this. I ,just as others here, have no doubt that you are an amazing lawyer and rep you for such.

Paladin, I perhaps took it further than was merited. I was initially pointing out what seemed to me, from my time in the industry, to be a clear violation to the rules, which is something that you have proudly spoke out against PCMW for doing. You were certain, as you seem to always be, that you were in the right and I was again one of the ignorant forum members who dared defy you. So in the wake of your arrogance, I contacted Visa, which initially I had zero intention of doing.

Does that mean anything. Well if you and Shyster are correct than you have nothing to worry about. So I'm sure that you won't be worried a bit.

Do I care either way, not really. Again my goal was not to get you in trouble, and I certainly wouldn't take any pride in doing so. I just sought to show you that everyone can make mistakes, and I am not saying that PCMW's were innocent mistakes. I am sure that they were intentional lies, and I have never denied that, anywhere in any post.

You just seem so arrogantly smug in your superiority to not only PCMW as a reseller vs. reseller standpoint, but also their customers from a person vs. person, intelligence vs. intelligence standpoint and it is a disgusting character trait that causes alot of friction and as a result some fires.

 

Ok.... I've posted this twice already, so either I'm way too insignificant for you to pay attention to, or you just don't see this: your much loved PCMW also provides cash discounts AS SAID IN THE OP. Seems kinda sad you would discus on this thread without reading the OP. So while your in the process of sicking visa on powernotebooks, you should do the same for PCMW.

 

I'm not ignoring your post, just as I pointed out above, I recognize that PCMW has made mistakes. Some of which are intentional and some not.

This by the way, is not about PCMW. It is about me, as their customer being continually attacked.

 

So... if PCMW is also at fault with the cash discount thing (And they don't even show the discounted price at check out, which I think is wrong based on what shyster said), why are you trying to single out powernotebook on this issue?

 

i dont see how you can come off calling someone else arrogant. You are the most arrogant person on these forums. you couldnt prove your point with inteligence like shyster did, so you instead you called visa LOL!

did you tell your mommy too greayreap?

the only "arrogance" that i ever see in paladins posts is annoyance over you making the same points when they have been disproved already.

 

Very well said, sir; I doff my hat to you. For my part, I apologize if I, too, got a little carried away - occupational hazard, I suppose. As far PCMW goes, as I said before, I believe in second chances as well as in the motto trust, but verify, and based on the posts from people who've bought from them in the past, they do seem to be getting the basic business right this time, even if they're a bit fuzzy on some points, so I think that there are good reasons to believe that in the end people who've decided to stick with them will get the system they want, even if it doesn't come with all of the promised magic and pizazz - I for one would hate to see anyone get really hurt, so I have no intention of thumping them any further than the facts really warrant.

And, ultimately, the proof will be in the pudding. they may be able to pull off a grand hat-trick, in which case everyone who stuck by their decision will suddenly look very smart and prescient - in which case I promise to forswear any sort of sour-grapes commentary.

As skeezix said, I think it's time for everyone to chill a bit - at least until the 15th - at which point we'll all know which way the wind blows. In that spirit, everyone's welcome to take their pick (sorry, I've only got electronic versions to offer ):



or, for the "alternative" among us:


or lastly, my personal favorite:


Maybe someone else can bring chips?

 

Helios, I continually use intelligence in my posts (that is if you don't count that one last night, but that was just for fun), unlike yourself.

Because I don't want to launch any personal attacks on anyone, no matter how much they may be disguised as concern. And especially not blatant name calling like a five year old (I take that back, my 5 y.o. son is much more mature than that). Especially as an onlooker.

Look at Palladins posts about PCMW and try to count how many times he refers to their customers as fools. Don't tell me that is not arrogant.

 

I guess I'll just have to bring them myself

 

Yes, I commented on that before but the fanboys come to his rescue saying there is nothing wrong with him doing that.

 

I still find it amazing that people think cash discounting is not allowed.

It is very specifically allowed for by all CC companies (and is done vifrtually everywhere in Canada and the US anyway.)

A "surcharge" or additional fee for CC is not permitted since that discourages a CC's use; a cash discount is permitted. The difference is in the pricing -- the posted pricing must always be the same, but a discount provided for cash is allowed. You cannot advertise a price, then charge a higher price for a CC.

Simple, and by the book.

*sigh*

It is Teh Internets though, where minutia must be debated until someone gets in trouble

jeff

 

ah theres the old shyster bringing the chips.

 

digress after the mess.

 

I'd stay out of this, because in my opinion nothing is a worse idea than to place onself inbetween two arguing parties, but I couldn't resist nitpicking at this one: I found it amusing that greyreap resorted to personal attacks on Deathwinger's intelligence in order to prove his point that he doesn't resort to personal attacks =). And as a quick point of clarification, information about the 860TU will be allowed to be released on the 14th, and sales on the morning of the 15th, or do both start on the morning of the 15th?

 

^ The morning of the 15th.

 

It was actually not toward Deathwinger but Heliosvector.

Either way, it was a very ironic statement to make I must admit.

 

I think people are mis-interpreting the rules of credit card processing.

The whole issue about a higher price has to do with different credit cards and advertised pricing.

For example if you offer Visa / Master card / American Express, you cannot charge a different rate for American Express over what you charge for Visa. If you advertise a price that doesn't state it is a cash price, then you need to honor that price with whatever credit cards you accept.

The issue has to do with the % rates that the various cards charge you, American Express is normally a higher rate then Visa and Mastercard. You can't charge Price A for a Visa, and Price B for an American Express. You can however choose to not offer American Express.

None of this has anything to do with a cash discount, you can cash discount all day long and your credit card agreement has nothing to do with that. So there is nothing wrong with it.

There is no ethical or legal issue with offering a cash discount, as long as you state it is as such. You cannot make people pay more than your advertised price if they use a credit card(unless you state a cash only price). You cannot charge a different rate based upon the type of credit card.

So Paladin isn't doing anything wrong, isn't breaking any laws, isn't being un-ethical in any way. He is actually passing on the lower cost of a cash deal to his customer, I find that to be the definition of Ethical !

Nothing is in Visa's hands, they have no say in how you run your business. They only ensure a level playing field between other credit cards and the ability for people to use a credit card on advertised pricing that doesn't state it is a cash price.

If you pay with cash, you can get a better price at 1000's of places accross the web. You guys need to just accept that reality.

 

Throwing my 2 law cents:

Buying a illegally modded bios hardware KNOWING it = accomplice customer.

But that's theory law, pragmatically: small customer (familiar use like) won't suffer any legal actions (not worth the money), large customer (corporation etc) will suffer legal actions (if it's worth the money).

It's the same with Microsoft Windows piracy, only at hardware level.


Buying a illegaly modded bios hardware, NOT knowing it = screwed customer.

Why? There may happen long term system (read: warranty time expires) problems which may be bios related and you will need to PAY for those repairs.

 

AND

Lemur, I have to disagree with your position as to # 1. If software companies could not copyright protect their work they would not have the incentive to create and support it.

While I too endorse open source software, if we had to rely on the open source community we would be years behind where we are now considering all of the different commercial and proprietary software that makes our global economy turn.

Particularly when it comes to a BIOS, there are so many different models and components that have to be supported, to expect the ODMs of the world to collaborate with the open source community for this purpose, is unreasonable as it would delay development of new technology so drastically that we would be no where near where we are today.

As to the legal issue that both of you address, I totally agree that it is highly unlikely that any legal action would be brought against an end user who is an accomplice in copyright violation...however that does not change the fact that they would be by legal definition accomplices. Fortunately there are many people in this world that would not be willing to knowingly be an accomplice to such a violation.

 

I'd take a modded BIOS, legal or not, so long as it provided further performance, features, or stability, compared to an unmodified version. Doesn't bother me a bit. In fact, I'd prefer it. Would not running my vBIOS modded then be illegal?

 

The problem is: SELLING. If you don't sell the modded BIOS, there is no problem, beside the warranty void.

Beside, there would be no problem to the hardware manufacturer, since if something goes wrong, you know it is your fault. On market case, if you start selling illegally modded hardware, and this hardware becomes faulty, barely anyone will blame the reseller, they will blame the manufacturer.

Resellers are mainly assemblers, they don't 'build' anything, they mainly stick other pieces together.

Same with software: you can copy // make a disc image and mount it on virtual drivers, as long you don't sell it or make it available for others (that´s the meaning of personal use).

I hope my english was enough to explain it.

 

why are we talking about modded BIOS here? clearly PCMW is not doing it.

 

'Cause it's fun to talk about?

 

yes, that was me! ^_^ although i have been a bit of a idiot, sorry.
I guess you and me greyheap are just too much the same that we shoot off sparks ^_^

 

I think it's because the person called and asked about the "1333 Mhz RAM" as listed on their website, specifically mentioning the Montevina platform only fully utilizes up to 1066 Mhz RAM. PCMW said they have changed the bios to work with 1333 Mhz RAM.

Paladin pointed out this would be illegal. Thus, it is very likely they aren't doing it (in which case they lied, again...) and if they do it then it is illegal.

Edit: My source is the first post in this thread.

Also, you have to remember to read things carefully. No one on these forums spoke for them and said they were doing it. They said they were. In which case, the only reasonable assumption is they are. And now we are discussing it on a FORUM.

 

I think this is your answer:

 

^ Those statements on a custom bios they provided are completely, without a doubt, false.

 

the claim about changing the bios is probably false. why? because xoticpc and powernotebooks.com could make the same claim and say 1333mhz ram "works". nobody said it would "work" at 1333. just that it works.

 

Don't quote me. I didn't say it was false.

 

i never said you did. i was extrapolating. don't misunderstand me.

 

I think this is going out of hand again. And too much especulation over a "vaporware" makes just more hype and more hype = more blinded ppl become about.

Let's see and wait until the first PCMW Edge and other M860ut based notebook reviews come out.

 

vaporware is a product that never has a set release date and has been in production for way too long. The clevos have a set release date and are almost definitely coming out in a few weeks.

 

The true definition of Vaporware.

 

As you wish, the message is the same. Calm down and wait the thing come out.

 

You know, if I had a dollar everytime I said that to myself, I would have enough money to buy another one by now.

 

LOL @ Deathwinger's Duke reference...was thinking the exact same thing when reading the "vaporware" posts, then scrolled down a bit...and WALAH...there he was, in all his true vaporware glory!!! Thanks for that...bill

 

A while ago we had a bit of a discussion in this thread about what might happen IF PCMW were to ship computers with modified BIOSes (modified without authorization from the BIOS maker) so that they would support higher-speed memory. What would the impact be on end users? Donald suggested users could be considered to be accomplices to an illegal act. But I expressed the opinion that the risk is close to nil.

Here's a case between Apple and Psystar which is similar to the hypothetical case above. Basically Psystar sold Mac clones and Apple says that Psystar modified software which is copyrighted by Apple and for which Apple did not give an authorization to Psystar to modify. What I think is noteworthy is:

1. Apple is asking that all units sold by Psystar be recalled. I'm not convinced that this will be successful. (And even if they can force Psystar to issue a recall, can they force end users to return their units?)

2. The only defendant in the case is Psystar corp. End users are not targeted.

3. However Apple claims that Psystar induced Psystar's clients to commit breach of contract and copyright violation. It is noteworthy though that Apple claims this on the basis that some customers knew precisely what they were doing (legally speaking). This may be enough to get Psystar but I still think that if Apple were to go after individual Psystar customers they'd have to prove knowledge in each and every individual case.

At any rate, those who are wondering about what would happen if laptops were shipped with BIOSes modded without authorization might want to keep an eye on this case.

 

Look at Michele Scimeca and her case against the RIAA. While this case may establish a PRECEDENT requiring Apple to show proof of knowledge, these lawsuits can actually go out pretty steadily and easily, and I'm pretty sure the RIAA is still issuing those blanket lawsuits for copyright infringement.

As Shyster1 has pointed out elsewhere, all Apple would really have to do is point out that the knowledge that modifying copyrighted Apple software to work on non-Apple hardware = copyright infringement is public domain. At that point, ignorance is no defense, because it becomes something that anyone COULD know if they took 30 seconds.

Granted, the hypothetical case mentioned is very unlikely to happen, because it's far more likely that the BIOS hasn't been modified at all.

 

Hello gentlemen, I just wanted to clarify something I saw earlier in this post before it degraded into the cash discount rant.

DDR3-1333 will work in this machine without any sort of a BIOS change from stock. Someone in the first few pages said PCMW told them (the customer) that they (PCMW) had " modified the BIOS" to get it to work.

Although that makes them look cool (in a way) it's nonsense. It isn't cool to misinform customers.

​

 

The issue isn't whether it will work or not, it is at what speed will it work.

Since the PM45 chipset only supports up to DDR3/1066MHz, even if you install DDR3/1333MHz memory in the laptop it will perform no better than DDR3/1066MHz, so using DDR3/1333MHz memory to look as you say "cool" is deceptive and only a cheap marketing trick.

For verification see http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Chipsets/P45/P45-overview.htm

 

From the looks of that page it seems to support 1333 MHZ RAM. Oh my mistake, it supports 1066 MHZ RAM. Well, we shall only see the true difference in a week or two. Battle between the EDGE and the np8660. I can't wait.

 

Support just means you can stick it in and it will work. It does nothing to indicate or imply what speeds it will operate at.

My PM755 with the i855PM "supported" DDR400 so that's what I ordered, even though it only runs at DDR333 albeit with tighter timings. The only reason you would want faster ram than the FSB can handle is if you want to overclock and you don't want the ram limiting you.

 

Yes...

Dual-Channel DDR3 memory support
Delivers up to 17 GB/s (DDR3 1066 dual 8.5 GB/s) of bandwidth and 8 GB maximum supported memory size for faster system responsiveness and support of 64-bit computing.

I look forward to the battle - just don't come late to the party

 

Well, it isn't properly stated as "Support" because it only supports DDR3/1066, and in your case it only supported DDR333, whereas it would still "work" even if you put DDR400 in it.

The interesting tell here is what is the CAS on the DDR3/1333? I think you will find that it is higher than the CAS 7 in the DDR3/1066, so in fact the DDR3/1333 will be slower because it will only run at 1066MHz and the CAS Latency will be higher.

 

Well Don, you're always so quick to jump on Killer Notebooks after the fact why didn't you comment about the BIOS before? The poster stated "He thought it could only ALLOW 1066", as in "capable of"

I said,

Now you're trying to elicit a response from me to get my post removed (like usual), you're misdirecting and misquoting (like usual) by stating,

I never said that using 1333 memory was to make you look cool. I said that PCMW said they modified the BIOS to make 1333 work to make themselves look cool. I'm sure your apology will be forthcoming for that and insinuating that my post was orchestrated to introduce deception and "cheap marketing tricks" instead of answer a valid question.

You state 1333 RAM does not perform any better... I have tested DDR3-1066 and DDR3-1333. Have you?

Riddle me this Don, "Why would one need even 1066 Mhz memory anyway at these bus speeds? (Let's see the amount of time it takes you to figure this one out by the time stamp on your post.)

EDIT>>> Is this a hard question?

​

 

As far as your CAS latency arguement... I am not following you.

Of course higher bandwidth 1333 RAM has numerically higher CAS latencies, but that is the result of the clock cycles by which they are measured are shorter; the actual time interval is generally equal to or shorter.

DDR3-1066 Memory clock: 133 MHz Cycle time: 7.5 ns I/O Bus clock: 533 MHz Data transfers per second: 1066 Million Module name: PC3-8500 Peak transfer rate: 8533 MB/s

DDR3-1333 Memory clock: 166 MHz Cycle time: 6 ns I/O Bus clock: 667 MHz Data transfers per second: 1333 Million Module name: PC3-10600 Peak transfer rate: 10667 MB/s

This may help:

​

 

^--^
You need to learn how to read the English language for its clear meaning, without letting your sensitivities twist what I said to be somehow directed at you.

But...if the shoe fits

As for the rest of your comments...well, I am simply not interested in engaging with your rudeness.

 

If this is rude...

I apologize.

I was interested in where your information about the performance of DDR3-1066 vs. DDR3-1333 in this chassis originated. Honestly, it makes no difference to me so sorry to bother you.

Anyway, for readers of the forum interested in notebook computing topics, here is an image of the new Q9100 quad core mobile Penryn. It has a very distinctive "two dual core" chip. I had never even seen pictures like it until I received the chip.

​

 

KillerNotebooks, are you clevo retailer? you might want to contact Chaz - our leader mod for "Notebook Retailer" title. how do you get negative rep btw if you don't mind i ask?

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure KNB knows that.