Samsung R20 notebook (14" widescreen)

Sods law, it seems to be working right now. Don't really use the one on the right as I forget its even there.

 

The intermittent problems can be hard to trouble shoot. If it happens again try using the right Fn key. This will identify whether the problem is the left Fn key or something to do with the computer handing the Fn key signal.

For a while my old X60 had some problems around M and N sticking, but the problems went away before I could try to arrange a replacement.

John

 

My review of the R20 is now posted http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3713. Please read it and see if there is anything to add.

Any specific comments about the review should be put in the discussion thread for the review. Other general issues about the R20 should continue to be in this thread.

John

 

John, thanks for the excellent review.

I wonder what are the real main differences with a T7200, besides what you mentioned about the heat and fan use.

 

The T7200 is a faster CPU with a bigger cache than the T2250 so it will speed up the computer in CPU work. However, the impact on graphics performance will depend on what processing is done by the CPU. I have a detailed table of all the benchmark results for different test conditions. Once I have worked out what it means I will post it.

However, in everyday use the normal user wouldn't see any difference between a T2250 or a T5600. The difference in CPU performance between any of these dual core units only becomes significant when you have tasks which heavily load the CPU for long periods.

Probably the most useful upgrade for the R20 would be changing to 2 x 1GB 667MHz RAM since this will also give a small performance boost to the GPU.

What I failed to emphasise in the review is that the two computers I was making comparisons with (Q35 and X60 plus) are approximately 50% and 100% more expensive than the R20. I think I'll get that added in near the front of the review.

John

 

Just curious why T2250 has 5.1 score in Vista Experience Index Base while T7200 has 4.9 and T2500 has 4.7

 

The Vista Experience index takes the lowest of 5 measurements. See the attached for what I measured for the R20 with T2250 CPU. I only managed a score of 3.8. The ATI 1250M graphics is the weakest link in the hardware but it runs the Vista eye candy much better than the Intel GMA 950 (experience index for my Q35 with T5600 CPU = 2.3).

John

 

Sorry, I was not clear on my previous post. I meant Processor subscore.
From http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/pages/458117.aspx:

It is strange :S

 

OK. A little confusion there.

I hadn't noticed that the T2250's processor score was better than some other faster CPUs. I have just rerun the Experience Index in the R20 and get the same result. The T5600 in my Q35 gets a processor score of 4.8 while the T7300 in the Thinkpad T61 manages 4.9 and that is effectively a T7200 with an 800MHz FSB.

I suspect that there is a quirk in the calculation procedure. Should this question be asked in the hardware forum? I wonder what the T2060 would score?

John

 

Just stumbled across this site which has three (!) BIOS updates not available in the country specific (the German one, at least) or global download centers (09SH, 10SH, 11SH).

 

Excellent discovery!

I have just installed 11SH on the R20 that I have been reviewing.

Thce CPU is now going into the C3 deep sleep state when running on battery so this give potential for some improvement in the battery run time.

However, a look at the attached graphs shows that something is interfering with the CPU having a reasonable doze. It is interesting to see something with an approximately 10s cycle. I can't figure out what it is. I also attach similar plots for the Q35. When the computer is on idle the %C3 stays up around 90%. This is also a standard Samsung Vista installation except it is Vista business.

[To make your own plot, use Start > Run > perfmon. Then seclect Performance monitor, right click on the graph area and select Add counters. Then click on the + in the processors row, click on %C3 Time and click on Add, then OK. Finally select the %C3 Time below the plot, right click and change the colour.]

Conclusion, this BIOS seems to be a step forwards, but users also need working PowerPlay for the ATI graphics and whatever it is that is causing bursts of CPU activity needs to be identified and controlled.

John

 

Good find Nebelwand!

John: I've replicated your results on my machine, based off a fresh Vista installation with less bloat. I also terminated as many of the running processes as I could, and although it notched the graph upwards a couple of percent it still has the trough and peak pattern.

At first I was getting much a much more sporadic graph that was averaging around the 40% mark. Then I had a brainwave and took Aero off - huge difference. It's no wonder there has been a lot of discussion regarding this area since Vista was released.

Suspend mode is also now working in Ubuntu, but it still jumps straight out of hibernate mode as soon as it's enabled.

 

Regarding PowerPlay - Has anyone checked if AMD/ATI's updated chipset/graphics drivers can be installed on the R20, or are we stuck with whatever Samsung offer/pre-install? Comparing the graphics drivers in the XP packages, Samsung's seems to contain Catalyst version 6.12 (?), while AMD/ATI are at version 7.4 now. There's also a separate "South Bridge Driver", which Samsung seem to have merged into their setup.

Maybe some aspiring driver modder could take a peek at the .INF files and check if the required PCI vendor and device ID strings are included in the AMD/ATI packages...

 

I reinstalled both the Cat 7.4 and the SB driver on the R20 I have, but there is still no trace of PowerPlay.

However, it is unclear whether the ATI's claim

actually means that PowerPlay is implemented for this chipset. It should be, because it is the equivalent of Intels's X3100 which does include various power saving tricks.

John

 

The 1250 notebooks page is here, and explicitly states "In addition to comprehensive support for the ACPI specification and Intel features such as SpeedStep®, ATI's exclusive technologies including PowerOnDemand™ and PowerPlay™." No sign of it under XP either.

 

John,

Have you tried installed the XP driver from ATI ? On my R40plus, it said cannot find compatible hardware and quit. Not a big deal as the Vista driver from ATI doesn't seem to be anything different from the samsung one at the moment, but wondering if they release newer one in the future, XP would be falling behind.

 

I've not tried XP on the R20 - it came with Vista only - but I think some other members have both OSs installed.

It is unclear whether the failure to deliver working PowerPlay can be blamed on ATI or Samsung. It is a real issue for my X60 plus (X1700 & no PowerPlay) where the battery time is only about 70% of the X60 (A1400 & PowerPlay). I note with interest that Samsung is using Nvidia for the current set of new products.

John

 

This is also the case with the R20. The interesting thing is that there is no mention of the Radeon Xpress 1250 in the standard XP Catalyst .inf files, despite it being listed in the release notes. The working Samsung XP driver is based on Catalyst version 6.12.

 

There is in notebookreview a list of four R20 reviews
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Samsung-R20-Aura.3643.0.html
BTW the great review in NBR by John is not (yet) included

 

Guess this problem isn't exactly a new one, here's a thread on a similar situation with the older Xpress200M chipset.

 

The latest Omega driver is based on Catalyst 7.1. Did you try that? It may well be possible to modify the .ini files for Catalyst 7.4. I did this previously for the X1700. The challenge is to identify the Device ID for the GPU and know what other GPU has similar characteristics. It may be possible to do this by comparing the 6.1 and 7.4 Mobility Catalysts.

I noticed earlier today that my review R20 in not in the NBR list of reviews and have pointed it out to Andrew.

Anyway, the R20 is going back tomorrow. Perhaps the review doesn't come through strongly enough that it is a good budget machine with a keyboard better than on my X60 plus which cost twice as much.

John

 

It seems that there are two xpress 1250 and the one in notebook should support the power* stuff.

http://ati.amd.com/products/Radeonxpress1250mob/index.html

Unless of course, samsung plays it cheap and use the dsk version instead of mob version.

 

I'm sure that Samsung are using the mobile chipset but did not do all the work to implement all the power saving features because of the desire to get the product to market. The R20 and the R40 plus are Samsung's key products at the bottom end of the market and I hope that development work is continuing. The almost identical hardware means that the development costs can be shared. The recent release of the R20 BIOS which supports the C3 deep sleep state is a step in the right direction.

That said, the R20 will always struggle to get to 3 hours on a 4 cell battery, but 2.5 hours under light use would be a 25% improvement on the 2 hours which is typical at present. I hope someone in Samsung is listening.....

John

 

Hi,

has anybody a R20-Modell with the Bluetooth-Module?
In the review it is written that maybe I can install the module in the cheaper Modell.
I have called a few Shops in germany, you can buy the module for about 45€.
And I have called the german Samsung-Support. They said that you would not loose waranty when you just have to open this one part of the notebook to install the module.

Do I just have to install the module? All Drivers and the software are installed.

regards

Nok

 

In my review of the R20 I identified a location near the memory slots which I thought might be for a Bluetooth module. If this is correct, then installation would be easy provided there is no need for a separate antenna connection. Perhaps the signal does not get blocked because of the plastic chassis. However, an external USB Bluetooth dongle would be much less expensive.

John

 

Yes, that is the slot I mean.
It was your Review, that brought the idea to install the module.

Sure, an external Dongle will be cheaper, but a good Bluetooth 2.0-Dongle will be about 20 - 25€. And it is not as comfortable as an integrated module. For example an Internet-Connection via UMTS in a train with your mobile phone in your bag will be more comfortable.

You are not sure, that this is the Bluetooth slot, or?

regards

Nok

 

I don't know whether that is the Bluetooth socket.

Pure speculation: A computer without optional Bluetooth and an empty socket.

We need someone who has an R20 with Bluetooth to lift of the memory slot cover and have a look underneath (and, ideally, take a photo of what is there).

John

 

Yes, that would be great.

In Germany we just have to models. And the larger one is about 1200€, what is very much. So it will be dificult here to find someone with a bluetooth-module.

Maybe someone here has a model with bluetooth....

 

Great thread on the R20 - and a great review too - I've been the happy user of one for about a month now (F001 from Comet) and quite happy with it. Compared to my M40 it seems to be faster, but that might be because the M40 is now showing its age (any tips on speeding it up would be appreciated - more memory perhaps?).
I too would like the bluetooth module for the R20 - I know a dongle would be the cheaper option, but I would prefer not to have it sticking out. It would make life easier when syncing with my PDA and phone and would mean fewer cables when travelling.
In comparison to the majority of those posting on this thread, I am somewhat inexperienced on the internal workings of today's computer (where is my ZX81?). With this in mind, I would like some comments on upgrading memory to 2GB (or 4GB?) - is it the best way forward?
I am planning to get another laptop to be used with 3D software - would the Core 2 Duo F002 version from Comet be a better option than the F001 (or would there be a better option than the R20 at this price range)? The main software to be used would be 3DSMax from Autodesk - it can be run on 32 or 64 bit system but better on 64 bit (I'm told). Is it right that the Core 2 Duo is capable of 64 bit but the Core Duo is not?
I have upgraded the BIOS to 08SH - should I upgrade to the 11SH highlighted earlier in the thread (it isn't listed on the UK download site)?

I guess a summary from John and the other experts on here of those things that we, the common people, should be doing/upgrading/downloading to get the best out of the R20 would be really useful!

David (Teuchterlad)

 

First thing you could do is to update the Bios. There is a multilangual Version on Samsung's international site. But be careful by doing this. If there appears a problem (for example you haven't connected the power) you'll loose waranty if something is damaged.

Second thing is to change the RAM. At the moment RAM is not really expensive. For 2Gb of matching DDR2-RAM (667 MHz) you have to pay about 64€. Vista needs much resources. A list of matching RAM-modules is listet on the international ati/amd-site. If you don't want to buy new RAM, you can change the settings for the Graphics in the Bios. It is set to "Auto" which reserves 256MB fot the Graphics, that is to much when you jaust have 1Gb installed. Change this setting to 128MB. I would change it to 64MB or 32MB, but 128 is the smallest I can chhose.

I think Core Duo and Core 2 Duo both can operate with 64 Bit. That would not be the problem. The problem is, that the installed version of Windows Vista Home Premium is a 32 Bit-Version. 3DSMax in a 64 Bit-Version only makes sense when you use a 64 Bit-Version of Windows (you can buy all Vista-Versions (just the key changes) in 32 OR 64 Bit) with much RAM (> 7Gb!!!) which is not possible in notebooks at the moment. The better thing you schould do, is to use a 3D-program which is able to use the second core of the processor. Not much programs are able to use both cores at the moment, but especially by using 3D- or CAD-Software this will make sense.

The Bluetooth-Module will be a fine possibility to connect to other things like mobile phones, PDAs, but it is not necessary for me at the moment. In July I will install this module using the UMTS-Connection via Bluetooth 2.0 of my Mobile Phone to sit in the train or in a park and surf in the internet. That is the reason why i bought a 14"-Notebook....

I think the best thing at the moment (prices for RAM are low) is to change the RAM. Selling the old RAM you have to pay about 30 - 40€ for 2GB of RAM wihich will increase the speed of the notebook. I will do this next month.

regards

Nok

 

Core Duo = Yonah = 32 bit only, and wouldn't you wan't a dedicated videocard for 3dsMax? Maybe even a Quadro or FireGL model (not cheap) if you're going to use it for serious work...

Anyone care to speculate about the future of the X11/R20 product lines? They seem to be the only ones left using their battery type, and I'm wondering if I would still be able to get a (reasonably "new"!) replacement/high capacity battery in a year or three...

 

Oh Sorry, then I am wrong...

 

This site has some articles about fitting Bluetooth into notebooks. I still think it may be necessary to run a wire to an antenna in the display. Maybe the Samsung service people can tell us. One solution is to fit internally an external USB module.

2GB makes sense. 4GB is overkill (32 bit Windows can only address 3GB, while 3GB is probably more than you normally need unless you run several memory-hungry applications at the same time.

No and yes. See below for more.

Don't go by what is on the Samsung UK website. It is mainly a cobwebsite.

The BIOS upgrade checks for compatibility and i think it also checks for the mains power being connected. It certainly gives a warning.

RAM prices change by the day. I wouldn't be too worried about the compatibility list - it is more a list of what was tested. Possible sources of 2 x 1GB are Crucial (free delivery), ebuyer (£10 off with Google checkout), Scan (not in stock, but very good price).

Core 2 is 64-bit, Core is not. Normally, the 3D calculations are done by the GPU. This will move the computer cost up a couple of notches. Whatever is good for games is good for 3D CAD but you may find that 3D CAD is not wanting 20 frames per second or faster updates so it is not so demanding. Autodesk's hardware requirements are not so demanding. The logical next step is to get the 30 day trial and see how it goes on the R20. You might find that the ATI 1250M is up to the task.

But the R20's battery run time isn't so good. But enable Bluetooth on the Q35 and it takes an hour off the battery run time! If the same applies to the R20 you will be down to 1.5 hours at most.

You should keep the existing RAM in case of any warranty claim, because you will be expected to return the computer as it was supplied.

The 3rd party battery people will offer this battery for some time. There's a discussion of battery sources about half way up this thread. Samsung's prices in UK for spare batteries are excessive.

John

 

Many thanks for the replies.

I’ve updated the BIOS with no problems (upgrading in Windows is very useful).

I’ll check out those sites for RAM – the prices are much lower than I was expecting, therefore it will be a no brainer on the upgrade.

As for the 3dsmax trial – I downloaded it a couple of weeks ago (600MB!) and have struggled to get it working. According to other forum discussions, this is due to Vista incompatibility rather than other software/hardware issues. Today, I received an email from Autodesk highlighting an update for vista compatibility, which was promptly downloaded and installed. To coin a phrase, 3dsmax runs as sweet as a nut on my current R20 with the 1GB RAM and Core Duo. The ‘other’ R20 looks like it might be a good option.

I'll look into the possibility of fitting a bluetooth module, but I'll shy away if it requires more than simply clicking a module in place - the dongle will be the second best, but acceptable, option.

Thanks again for the info.

David

 

If you get the urge to go beyond 2GB then this Transcend 2GB module is the best price I have seen. I know it works in the R20 because I tried it, but its normal home is in my X60 plus. For best performance it should be alongside another 667MHz module.

Thanks for the feedback about the R20 and 3dsmax. The question comes up from time to time about what hardware is needed to run 3D CAD software and it is good to know that the 1250M is up to the task and there is no need to invest in a dedicated GPU.

John

 

Hi again all.

I was thinking about upgrading the RAM for my R20 (F001 from Comet), and I was told to look at Crucial because the RAM someone bought there was good and reasonably priced.

First question - will any RAM work with Vista, no matter if it's the 32-bit or 64-bit version? (mine only has Core Duo, and hence it's Vista Home Premium 32-bit)

Second - has anyone ever bought RAM from Crucial, and if so what are they like?

Third - is this RAM good or can I get better 2x1 GB sticks elsewhere?


Cheers.

 

Having 32 or 64 bit Vista makes no difference to the type of RAM. The OS is only significant because 32 bit Windows can only address up to 3GB but 64 bit can go much bigger.

The R20, like almost all recent notebooks, uses 200pin DDR2 SODIMM (SO means Small Outline, unlike the standard desktop DIMM).

Crucial is the retail arm of Micron, one of the world's major RAM manufacturers. I have bought Crucial a few years back. Recently their website had been relatively expensive but they now seem to have made adjustments to the pricing.

If you want 2 x 1GB from Crucial, look here. I believe the £58.74 includes delivery. Scan has some less expensive Corsair modules, but they are not in stock.

John

 

Thanks, John - helpful as always.

The reason I'm thinking about it is because originally I wasn't bothered about playing games on it, but I run an Xbox 360 website and I've been offered Halo 2 and Shadowrun for the PC for free to review (to compare them to the 360 versions), so the extra RAM would really help. I'm not worried about them looking stunning because I know the graphics card isn't brilliant, but I'd like the games to run properly - and I imagine an extra 1 GB would be helpful in that respect.

How difficult is it to install new RAM? I'm a real computery person, but it's the software I'm interested in, not the hardware. I've never tried to install any hardware before, so this would be the first time I attempted anything like this.

I was reading up about ReadyBoost, but I tried using a flash stick and an SD card, but neither seemed to improve the performance that much (used PCMark05 to benchmark). I'll hopefully be able to try my brother's 2 GB SD card soon, but I'm not going to hold my breath that it will improve things as much as an extra 1 GB of RAM would.

 

2 x 1GB of 667MHz RAM will give a some boost to performance. The GPU already takes its full share of RAM out of 1GB, but faster RAM will help the GPU, but by no more than around 10%. Having 2GB on board will reduce the need for Windows to use virtual memory and it is said that Vista takes advantage of extra RAM.

I tried ReadyBoost using a fast 2GB SD card when I was reviewing the R20 and couldn't get any improvement in benchmark results, However, there may be situations when it does help, but I didn't find them. [I am currently trying the same SD card in my Q35.]

John

 

I doubt I'll get the new RAM before I get the games (if I do actually get them, that is), so I suppose my decision will be based on how well the games perform with the RAM and ReadyBoost.

I've been told by someone that's good with hardware that it should be easy and I'm not likely to break anything - does that sound about right?

Does anyone know which is faster out of USB and the SD card reader? The 2 GB SD card is my brother's, not mine - and I've got a 1 GB USB flash stick and a 1 GB M2 card (with Memory Stick Pro adapter), so it would be a toss-up between those.

 

I very much doubt readyboost would have any effect on a particular game. It really is a kind of "file cache" which only works for very small(below 32k) but frequent and random reads.

So unless the game's data read pattern fits, it would be kind of useless.

 

I attach the pages from the R20's manual showing how to change the RAM. All you need is a cross-head screwdriver of the right size. Then you gently pull the two clips outwards until the module is released and springs up. You put the replacement in at an angle and then push down on the free edge until the clips lock into place.

You should keep the old RAM in case you need to return the computer under warranty, because it should be with the components as supplied.

SD cards and USB sticks come in a wide range of speeds. You can test the performance of yours by using the removable storage benchmark in Sandra. I also wonder whether the hardware of the card reader or USB interface can affect performance. The SD card I am using is the Sandisk Extreme III. None of these solid state storage can match the data transfer rates of hard disks, but they have much lower latency for memory access.

John

 

Based on recommendations from this website, I bought one of these from comet today and I must say seems to be running smoothly.

The only drawback is ofcourse the batterly life and the fact that I prefer 4:3.
Hoping its not too big for uni!

 

I've just noticed that the Comet R20-F002 (the more expensive model with the C2D CPU) has disappeared off the Comet website, so they are now only selling the R20-F001.

Those who want the C2D CPU can look for the NP-R20F004/SUK with T5300 CPU and 120GB HDD. At Laptops Direct it is undercutting the NP-R20F000/SUK.

John

 

Quick question about having 2 GB of RAM instead of 1 GB - will this do anything to the battery life?

 

Not significant. You would still have two modules using power.

On the Q35 (near the end of this thread) I measured that an extra 1GB RAM cost me about 2 minutes in 3 hours on DVD playback.

More RAM should reduce the use of virtual memory and therefore HDD activity and could actually give an overall (but small) improement in battery run time. See also the comments in my Q35 note about ReadyBoost (I had tried the same card in the R20 and didn't get any obvious benefits, but I didn't try that test).

John

 

RAM is using about 1% or less of overall battery capacity.

 

Hello,

First this thread is really insteresting for people who are interested by the new Samsung R20, like me. I have read this one entirely.


I'm a french R20 owner. I've bought a Samsung R20 in France for 990euro. I'm surprised to constat that your R20 own different processors. Mine have these specifications: Core 2 duo T5500 1,66Ghz FSB 667Mhz, 2GB memory (2x1GB) 533Mhz, HD 160GB (FUJITSU MHW2160BH PL), without bluetooth but with the same other spec. like you. My model is the R20 XIV 5520. You can see it on the french Fnac's website ( http://www4.fnac.com/Shelf/Article.aspx?PRID=1962769)

Concerning the speaker, the sound is enough bad but you can change the equalizer in the sound's option to "rock". Then, the sound is better.

About Bluetooth: I've read some things about an additionnal bluetooth module. The free emplacement on the the back of the computer is certainly dedicated to a test connector (you can read it near the connector, in white).
An other idea would be to buy a Bluetooth SD-card modul which can certainly be useful with Vista (old review: http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/review/palm_bluetooth_sdio_expansion_card_review).


I've some questions:

-Battery time: with "Samsung optimization" selected in the options, my battery time is approximately about 1H15. It is very low. What are your settings to increase it?

-Graphic card: can you explain me the matter with the graphic card concerning the power consumption and the drivers please? There is some drivers available on the ATI-AMD's website. They're not optimised for our R20 notebook?

Thank.
Bye.

 

The choice of available models seems to be just as random as Samsung updating their various download centers

Germany gets only two different models:
Core Duo T2350/1GB/120GB - €799,
Core 2 Duo T7200/2GB/160GB/Bluetooth - €1299 (but supposedly receiving a price drop next week)

 

See if you model can enter C3 state on battery, that is the most critical feature in terms of power usage. I thought there is mentioning of a BIOS update.

There is nothing that can be done to the graphic chip but I don't think it really matters too much(peanuts comparing with the CPU without C3).

Bring down the brightness of the LCD also helps a lot, I find 3/8 is pretty reading which with the help of the samsung profile would dim it to lowest when there is no input.