Sony Vaio Z i5/i7 Official Owners Thread

Lack of TRIM will definitely be felt even my inexperienced users due to stalls that they will inevitably face after the SSD goes into saturation mode. My current 128GB Vertex SSD has this problem with only 6 months of "regular" use under Vista 64. This is with about 50+ GB of free space that was untouched/reserved for wear leveling.

I'm not here to bash the Sony Z since I think it's one of the best notebooks to come out this year (minus lack of USB 3.0) but their SSD not having TRIM support (speculative), is really shocking.

Again, I'm still buying one (already in the process! Getting is shipped from Japan) but it will be without the SSD and with the HDD as I plan to install my own SSD on it.

 

Can we stop speculating about all this TRIM stuff and stop spamming up the thread? /personal opinion ZoinksS2k has the laptop now and has posted hard evidence of something regarding the SSDs and TRIM which you guys should analyze for those of us who don't know anything about these sorts of things!

 

Great work Zoinks!

Well, I got lucky today and got an operator on the Sony USA call center who was willing to give me a 15% discount on my CTO, after "getting approval". My config is i5-540m / Premium Carbon / 8GB / 256GB which came out to $2599, minus the $405 discount, plus a $179 ESP (which I may consider canceling, haven't decided yet).

Looking forward to more of your (and others') findings so I can make some informed decisions on how I'll proceed with the SSD setup.

 

I will say it again. I am typing on my Z with the 256gig SSD that I puchased in october 08, 1.5 years ago. It has been power used every day. The SSD has been filled up many times. I write 30gigs to it a week, delete, rewrite. It performs with no or little problems in practical life. Next to no fancy maintenance. Never rebuilt the original vista os. The SSD is still far faster than any standard drive I have used writing files. It is a huge asset asembling billboard sized files in photoshop (300mp, multi gig files) with multiple saves and authoring hd content. I have no problem with buying another. In fact I can't wait until it arrives.

I do like the idea of another drive bay in addition to the SSD instead of the blueray drive an wish they would offer that. I need terrabytes of storage and get tired of lugging externals.

 

That's great, did they say which models they have in stock? I'll call SouthCoast Plaza SonyStyle tomorrow A.M. to find out which ones. If they have that one model on the Sony site listed for 2499.99 with the specs below, I may drop-in this Sunday to make that purchase. However, after hearing these 15% discounts versus the in-store 7% student discount, I wonder if I should phone-in my order. I'll see if they can offer me at least 10% - I'll be content.

Model Number: VPCZ11CGX/X
Intel® Core™ i5-540M (2.53GHz, 3.06GHz with Turbo Boost)
Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 64-bit
Features: 13.1" LCD, 4GB RAM, 256GB SSD, hybrid graphics (1GB VRAM), headphones

Anyway, is there any way to find out in Control Panel when I play around with the demo if it supports TRIM? I'm hoping they have the exact model I want on display.

 

That sounds promising. I hope I receive the same experience as you with this new Z. Do you feel the performance is still the same as when you first brought it home - right out of the box? Wow! and you've never restored (rebuilt?) the OS Vista in 18 months of ownership? Well, maybe there is hope....

 

I pulled the trigger today after some painful decision-making.

I ordered Z11 (black cover + black palmrest) Win Premium
i7-620, 8GB ram, 1600x900 screen,
HDD version (swap later with SSD), Wimax, 3USB, backlit Japanese keyboard, stick adapter, camera...

--> paid 202,780 JPY (2240 USD) after small discount
--> estimated delivery April 14th (black palmrest and black battery have 4weeks delivery time, obviously black seems very popular)

 

Oh snap! I completely missed his post. LOL.

 

I don't think it's a given that SSDs will experience stalls or significantly degraded write speeds once saturated. Look at the Intel drives, even without TRIM the saturated write performance is only slightly lower than write performance on new drives.

I believe that with generous overprovisioning and good write and garbage collection algorithms SSDs won't necessarily suffer from severe degradation even without TRIM. The Intel drives seem to do just that. Unfortunately how these algorithms are implemented in the SSD controllers is a secret, but I've been trying to piece together what I can from a few published papers on the subject.

I think what's important to realize is that there are significant differences between the algorithms and data structures used to implement the very basic functions of SSDs between manufacturers and between controllers supplied by the same firm over time. I think there are definitely major improvements in SSD controller design that may have now rendered worries about write stalls and significant degradation isolated to specific old or bad implementations. We should be careful not to let these existing experiences make us believe that SSD degradation is an unsolvable problem without the help of TRIM.

 

I can't say for sure the performance is the same as the day it was new but it is not a dog and can deal with writing huge files at a very high speeds that puts hdds to shame.
There are a couple of hickups in the Os that would be best served by a total rebuilt but it has nothing to do with the SSD. My only real problem has been the 3 gig memory limit on this fctory install (32 bit). When the new one is up and running I will redo this one and make some tests before and after.

 

Zoinks is my hero

Thanks for your efforts, Zoinks! Now to wait for my Z to come sometime in the following week.

 

Did you have to request the battery to be black when ordering from Sony Japan? Also, I thought the memory stick slot was a given on the Sony Z. Was this also an option. I need to know this so I can relay the info to the importer who is purchasing the Z for me.

 

Would you mind running the CrystalDisk benchmark that some other forum members have been running on their SSDs? It would be really helpful for us to get a sense of how the SSD RAID performs after some time of use. Right now we only know how they perform when new. Thanks a bunch.

You can find the program here: http://crystalmark.info/software/CrystalDiskMark/index-e.html

 

No, the matching-color battery comes automatically (can't choose color, but u can check delivery times for each of them).

By memory stick slot, u mean USB? There are two options here:
either 3USB slots, or 2USB + iLink

 

Oh, nvm. I thought you were referring to the multi-memory card reader slot that comes built in. Thanks though.

 

Can we not resolve this TRIM issue once and for all..?

Can someone who already owns a RAID SSD setup in their new Z just fill up the disk with whatever whilst timing the write (to achieve saturation), then delete what they just wrote, then write it again and see if there's a significant slowdown..? If there is no slowdown then that means a TRIM mechanism has reclaimed the deleted blocks, right..??

Is it that simple, or am I missing something..? Surely we don't have to wait months to see if the thing has TRIM or not, do we..?

 

I made a comparison of the CrystalDiskMark results of the different SSDs in the Z based on the screenshots I found here in the forum (and another forum linked in this thread by joseph_lin).

 

Arth,

I sincerely and immediately apologise if the joke and reference to you got off the wrong way.
You were sharing your views about how you have desktops for most of your DVD burning so I was just jesting.

But no amount of jokes will make up for true slighting which wasn't never meant to be the case.

Your expertise and willingness to share it isn't a joke and I hold to that.

Just want to be very public about the amount of appreciation and respect that I have for your posts.

You're one of the big reasons why this forum is wonderful.

 

That is a great comparison for Z owners, to choose if they want to run the drives in RAID or JBOD.

 

Is it? I can't get it to load -- repeated attempts (with shift-reload) all report that the image contains errors.

Be that as it may, and while all data are useful, there are a couple of caveats:

- The speed for a new drive won't be the same as a speed for a well-used drive, and if you don't know which is which, it's difficult to compare. (Yes, even with TRIM, there will be (much smaller) speed differences over time.)

- CrystalMark reports average speeds, which aren't as useful as you think. If you watch a movie or play a game, it doesn't help if you have an average of 25 fps if, every few seconds, a frame stalls for a whole second. Unless you talk about servers that process jobs in batches, worst case timings are far more important.

 

Strange, I could load the image. Sometimes it stopped loading in the middle, but a refresh helped.
I changed it to a jpg image.

The benchmarks which were posted on the net, and included in the comparison, are all of new SSDs. The benchmarks were probably done in first few days of using the new Z. Except the Intel SSD of dimension6 (he said that he used it in another PC before).
It'd be interesting to compare these values with ones measured after a few months.

As for CrystalDiskMark. Sure, we don't have any statistics about the reported values, but that's the best data available for the different models, for now.

 

I agree with you on that Arth1

I will be using ATTO, HD Tune, PCMark Vantage and HDTach when I do benchmarking of the Z over the weekend.

If the opportunity presents itself, I'll also try to connect a few other SSD's to the laptop for direct comparisons. I've got an 80GB Intel X-25 G1, 256GB Patriot Warp V3 and two 120GB OCZ Vertex Turbos. Not sure this is doable, won't know until I crack the Z open.

I'll also try to replicate the tests PCPer does with their SSDs to see if I can simulate degradation.

 

Thanks! Could be the libpng used by gecko based browser (Firefox, Seamonkey, whathaveyou) has problems with seriously wide PNG images? Or a bad router somewhere between nbr and me, which prevents large files from coming through?

Indeed. Most interesting would be to see how the random small write values change -- that's where the stalls happen.

I tend to favour non-graphical benchmarks myself, so I can pull out interesting tidbits (like the difference between median and average values -- the higher that is, the more stuttering and stalls), but I know it's not realistic to get a dozen-odd people here to run those

 

Thanks Zoinks!!!

This is by far the best support forum that I have ever experienced. The ideas and speculation that has emerged regarding the new Z is very interesting. Can you imagine how deep the discussions will get once everyone has the laptop in their hands. IMO.....the best is yet to come.

 

Posted some new benchmarks and FSUTIL output

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=6008167&postcount=48

 

I wonder if Sony reads this thread...and what they think. OR ARE THEY NOT PAID TO THINK?

 

Agreed, I am the same way. I would not know what TRIM is. So if Sony does have a solution, someone asked why they would not be advertising it. I think we already know Sony is never big on advertising the specs part of the PC. They never advertise to the people that know about PCs and what to know all the details. That was our biggest complaint when Sony originally released the information about the new Z. All their videos talked about design, hybrid graphics, new intel processors, etc. But we couldn'nt find out what actual graphic chip was in there. I remember people saying if it was a good chip, then why not advertise it. People thought it would be the 310m and in the end once the pre-order page came up, with actual specs, we saw it was the 330. So I don't think Sony not advertising it, does not mean they have not thought about a solution. They are advertising this "new" techonology that is really fast. Which is what they think all the normal users want to hear. Until we have practical tests of an actual user getting the slow down, I am not going to panic. I also see there are reasonable solutions for me, like delete and re-image with my backup CDs. So it is not going to stop me from buying one either.

 

Apparently Sony decided we can't see. The default Sony image has text set to 125% (Medium). It is easy enough to change, but this seems wierd on a 1600x900 screen. On a 1980x1080 it would make more since. Perhaps this is a Windows 7 thing, I don't know.

This is just a minor irritation and simple thing to change.

 

Heh, this is the result when you do a 1-click care pass in the Vaio Care application. Just more confirmation that Windows 7 is SSD aware.



Oddly, the superfetch service is running and set to Automatic.

 

I want to switch the HDD in my Z when it arrives. I've been recommended to use Intel X25 G2, so I found some on Amazon (160gb size) but I don't know which one is better. Can someone tell me if there is a difference between these two Intel SSD drives? (G2C1 vs G2R5)

SSDSA2MH160G2C1

SSDSA2MH160G2R5

I'll order from Japanese Amazon once I decide.

 

Strangely enough, instead of being happy that I finaly placed my order today, I feel very anxious that perhaps the i7 processor was a bad choice and that I'll regret it... oh life...

 

Is there a way to find out whether TRIM is passed all the way from Windows to the SSD itself and performed by the drive?

If CrystalDiskInfo shows that TRIM is supported, does that mean that it is used by the SSD as well? Unfortunately CrystalDiskInfo does not work with RAID (as ZoinksS2k told us).

The DisableDeleteNotify command is not very informative. ZoinksS2k checked it while having the SSDs in RAID0 and the result showed that TRIM is used by Windows 7. Probably it is not passed on by the Intel RAID controller to the SSD though.

 

Not that I'm aware of. We may be able to tell by proxy. This is why I want to try artificially filling the drive to simulate the degradation behavior.

If performance stays constant, there is some sort of garbage collection happening. If it doesn't, I'll see if other procedures can be used to restore near-peak performance.

If anyone has other ideas for test cases, lemme know

 

Would be good to find out.
Unless CrystalDiskInfo showing TRIM support means that it is actually used by the SSD, we can't be sure that TRIM works with JBOD either (though it probably does).

ZoinksS2k, thank you (in advance, too) for the new information and tests you provided to us!

 

Thank me later. For all you know I'll flake-out and disappear

 

This is really useful. Thanks a lot!

 

I think the drive is the same for both, but for R5 it comes with additional mounting brackets. I bought C1 since I don't need the additional hardware.

 

Let me start with a couple of caveats. First, I'm not trying to fuel speculation about a refresh when people are just now receiving their Zs. Nor am I engaging in what someone on the F series owners' thread calls "Endless Recursive Decision Making," where one never pulls the trigger, because there's always something bettter on the horizon.

I am trying to decide, though, whether now is the time to buy the Z. Here's my situation. It would be my only computer. My day job involves pretty basic MS Office, Acrobat and e-mail/internet. My more demanding work--on my own time--involves Photoshop and Lightroom. I wouldn't typically be using the Z for entertainment, so I don't need a built-in optical/BD drive (although I might buy an external BD writer to backup my photo collection (in addition to HDDs). Ideally, I think I would like to have a (relatively small) SSD for my OS and various applications, with a second (larger) SSD or HDD for onboard storage.

Also, given my photo editing work, I'm attracted to the full HD display, which a January Sony Europe press release ( http://presscentre.sony.eu/Content/d...ReleaseID=5545)describes the full HD display this way:

"Whether you’re fine-tuning a presentation or enjoying your personal media collection, you’ll get a better picture with the Full HD 1920 x 1080 (model VPCZ11Z9E) VAIO Display Premium. Measuring 33.3cm (13.1”), this high-efficiency screen with LED backlighting offers exceptional brightness, clarity and contrast. An exceptionally wide colour gamut of 96% Adobe RGB coverage ensures rich, vibrant reproduction of Full HD video and still images."​

Assuming that this is the full HD display available in the US (any reason to think otherwise?), I would like it. But, for both price and configuration reasons, I'm put off by the Signature Series, which is the only way to get that display in the US currently. How much of a priority should I place on the full HD display. (I have good eyesight and am not worried about the size of text.)

Also, if I wait to buy, is it unreasonable to think that Sony might offer a second SSD or a HDD as an option for the second bay, along with (of course) the full HD display? I've read posts about users replacing the optical drive with a SSD/HDD, but I'd prefer to buy my unit configured to my needs, especially since I would be getting a 3-year warranty.

 

Might want to revise mine. Numbers were inexplicably different during my pass this morning. This is one of the reasons I don't care for CrystalMark.

 

Wow 6 months. I called my local one again and they said 2 weeks.... I was hoping since some had them that mine might, but no such luck.

 

This might be the case, as it worked fine as a JPEG.

Ah well, time to delve into the libpng12 code then

 

In that case, I have four pieces of advice for you:

1: You can't have too much RAM for Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom.
2: Buy a hardware screen calibrator. (Whatever you do, don't use Adobe Gamma on an LCD display. In too many cases it's worse than nothing. Adobe has even stopped bundling it on Macs.) I recommend the Eyeone (also known as I1). Some people like the Spyder.
3: Make sure you get an 8-bit non-TN display
4: Make sure you get an 8-bit non-TN display

 

Thanks for the answer! Strangely enough R5 version (probably with mounting brackets) is cheaper than C1 here in Japan.

 

You're welcome, I'm happy that you find it useful.

Then I'll be uploading JPEGs from now on

Thanks, I included your second pass in the comparison.
But as it was already suggested, CrystalDiskMark is useful only to get an idea about the approximate speed and how the different configs compare to each other. It'll not be accurate.
Hopefully you'll get some more representative results with the other benchmark apps

 

I'm confused. If the numbers aren't good (which I tend to agree with) which means they are bad for comparison.

+-100MB is quite a bit of variance.

And by the by, the machine I'm testing on is a VPCZ112GX/S, not a VPCZ11FHX/XQ

 

Has anyone of you owners of i7-620m experienced any heat-related issues? Dimension6, are you still happy with your choice? Haven't heard from you for a while, getting worried

 

Thanks, I corrected it. I copied the wrong model number from your post in the unboxing thread. I am used to the European Vaio model numbers

What I meant is that without these benchmarks, I wouldn't have any idea what speed the SSDs have. Now I know at least approximately what a feasible value could be.
The same is true for the comparisons. E.g. I see that the quad SSD is on the average 1.3 to 2 times faster than the dual SSD (and not e.g. 1.01 times or 10 times faster).
Of course, if you knew/supposed such values from the start and you need more precise numbers, then the CrystalDiskMark graphs aren't very helpful.

 

Sony Camarillo is an OUTLET, so I can see them getting the new Z in 6 months once the first refresh has been introduced, therefore, the Z we are all speaking of, will be on sale then.
_______________________

Just called Sony South Coast and they only have the base model in. It's the silver for $1899. So far, no black carbon premiums are available and they don't have a specific date as when shipment will be in.

 

Does anyone know where I could find high-res photos comparing the black and premium carbon lids side-by-side?

I tried searching here in the forum, but I couldn't find any good photos. There are no Sony Style shops around me, so I can't see them in person (premium carbon is not available on the preconfigured models sold in the regular shops).

I can't decide which one I should take. First I was sure that I'll take the premium carbon, but now I have the feeling that the matte black lid is simpler and more elegant. Too bad that I can't see them in a shop before buying the laptop.