"BAIT and SWITCH" sony and nvidia less than honest with consumers

Any good lawyer out there ready to file a class action suit on sony and nVidia to protect the consumer.


BAIT
I think everyone believed that nVidia GeForce 7400 Go promoted by both nVidia and Sony as 128MB dedicated memory only to be switched by a lower model of 64 MB.


SWICTH
Where are the points: almost all marketing by sony suggests 128MB DDR video card with Turbocache you would get additional ram from the system. Sony deliberately reworded their marketing specs to say new video memory of 335 MB and failed to inform consumers that Sony is switching to "cheaper 64MB cards" but taking more sys memory ram to beef up its "larger memory video". If you look at their specs from earlier and marketing for SZ1 to SZ3 series they are clear on the 128 MB and 128 Turbocache/sys mem usage.
How unfortunate for PREMIUM models, they also felt the need to "cut corners". (SONY & nVidia you should have both insisted that premium means something and left 128MB on the video card!)

I think when you make a switch as nVidia and Sony does they need to be BLATANTLY CLEAR that customers are now getting a lower card. It is consumer fraud to let customers believe that they are getting greater video memory but in actuality they are tapping more of their own sys mem to generate the "larger video ram" claims.



For a company battling its image for fiascos like their digital rights management/spyware scam and such, they should walk on the "better for consumers" side more than ever.



in fact if we went to a doctor for a particular drug therapy, and they decide to change out the dosage of the state-of-the art medicines for something lower and supplement with a generic drug...we would suit their proverbial appendage off!



We should do that here also!! Consumer advocates lets get moving!

 

so which models have which?

and what does my sz330 have?

 

Hrm, my friend bought a Sony a few months ago...

Can anyone else verify artics claim to this?

 

If this accusation is true, I am not surprised. Manufacturers will do anything to separate a customer from his money.

 

Just to clarify, this is not what "bait and switch" refers to. This is probably worth noting if you are planning on making a formal complaint.

To clarify, "bait and switch" is a retail tactic. The idea is that the store BAITS someone with some amazing deal (i.e. "Super duper laptop for only $500"), but when someone shows up at the store, they say "Oh, sorry, we're all out of those", and then tries to sell the consumer some other product (this is the "switch" part of it) that might cost a similar amount but not be as good, hoping that they will buy it anyway since they have already come to the store primed to make a purchase, and hoping they will buy the lesser product anyway since they were already prepared to spend that money.

What you are describing is something different.

-Zadillo

 

OK, this is not "Bait and Switch", but it is dishonest.

 

the expectation based on "historical" model specs and the selling of "128MB DDR" is ingrained in most consumers mind when they finish reading all the reviews ...so you go in thinking it will have that specification

when you read the new sz4vwp spec you see increase in mem for video you assume the expansion of sys mem usage not a drop in ddr video mem for a hardware piece that have been standard for the last three series!

not as insidious as some "bait and switch" but it still bait and switch ...because they knew they made the switch and yet hid it by taking out the specific reference in marketing announcements go to the this link and check it out yourself...

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/select-system.pl?DIRECTOR=DOCS you can select the different models and validate or disprove it for yourselves

still not expected for a PREMIUM product to have parts specs lowered!
it was raised to 256MB then no complains...that is expected value for price and expectations

 

Fair enough, just saying it isn't "bait and switch", which is a retail tactic. What you are describing is something else which the retailer doesn't have any control over (beyond that you might be able to complain to them to get them to accept a return, which would prompt them to complain to Sony).

 

no disagreement with you Zadillo....just feel a little cheated by the lesser component

and it was bought from Sony direct...so manufacturer knows

 

All SZs have 64MB on-board memory for the 7400 Go, including the very first SZ models, so despite their previous advertising claims, there never was an actual switch. Currently, Sony do not list that fact in their SZ specifications and only list the total available memory size (on-board + system memory usage), which is a bit deceitful.

 

nothing but gripe a little i guess and let the world know of the "bit deceitful" and move on...was hoping that we get a new graphics card in a massive recall to upgrade nVidia from 64 to 128!...oh well we can always dream ...thanks for letting me vent and bring forth the truth behind the numbers for the cards

 

Actually, I thought my SZ260p had 128 dedicated memory also. Don't feel alone. I do have all my literature. It does say 128mb video memory. What now? Here is what the spec sheet says

Processor: NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7400 and Intel®
Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Video RAM: 128MB (NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7400)
and 128MB dynamically allocated shared
(RAM/Video) memory (Intel® Graphics Media
Accelerator 950)

 

MxMoney, it doesn't really say "dedicated" under nVidia, does it ?

I too was under a dillema long time and I still am. A lot of confusion was also brought by sellers who quoted in their adverts that SZ has 128MB dedicated memory. That couldn't be confirmed from official Sony specs because there it says "128MB video RAM". Not a clue about amount of dedicated and shared...

 

Matta,

I copied and pasted that information from the Adobe PDF spec sheet that I downloaded when I purchased the the SZ. I have the original .pdf file. Whether it is dedicated or shared I can't comment it does say 128 though.

Jimmy

 

I, as any normal person, would have assumed that since they emphasized dynamic for the gma950, that the 128mb for the 7400 is dedicated.

Thats really underhanded.

 

Obviously, not all are normal persons like we here.

What's even more sad, some of the sellers (here in Europe at least) advertised SZ series with only 32MB dedicated memory.

 

so the point is geforce 7400 that comes with SZ only has 64 dedicated video ram?

how will it impact by using shared memory?
i mean if example playing a game..on a graphic card that has 128 dedicated video ram and 64 video ram but can use more memory from the system.

will it do much difference?
i dont know how it works..

 

If you ask me, the bigger problem is the generally spotty driver support from both Nvidia and Sony.

Nvidia has yet to get its Vista drivers right.

As for Sony, if you want to do a clean install of either XP or Vista, you are going to be hunting for drivers on the US and EU support sites plus manufacturer sites, then Frankenstein the whole mess together with a lot of trial and error. Not to mention that all their drivers are wrapped up to check for model and OS even when it does not matter. Its Mac next time.

 

this sucks


so what new games can we play with this go7400 at decent settings?
battlefield 2142?

just wondering

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=118452

 

All FE models with the 7400 also only have 64mb, It was doubly dishonest because XP would report 128mb, Only a few specialized tools reported the true amount.

 

I bought the SZ thinking it had 128mb dedicated memory as well.

It may need more research to put a reputatable case forward as all windows programs except for a few as mentioned will report it as 128mb on board which the average consumer will see.

Research like how many times sony advertised the SZ as having `dedicated` 128mb video ram when it clearly does not and is stealing 64mb of system ram to make this value. You would have make sure the definition of dedicated on board-video ram is clarified as i think its a grey topic with Nvidia`s turbocache technology.

One of the expensive parts of adding dedicated mobile video chips is the ram. Since the SZ is really more marketed as a business notebook i guess Sony may have decided they could save some money in this area and this type of customer wouldn`t worry to much about it.

Of course the main point is the claim of false advertising. I doubt many are surprised Sony did this but they should have stated 64mb dedicated as it seems in previous model they did state the amount of dedicated and the amount that was used with turbocache.

Reading from online benchmarks the turbocache feature in practice seems to be well implemented and doesn`t seem to affect performace to much. Sure it would have been nice to have 128mb but 64mb seems to work without problems.

Its possibe there is other reasons sony used the 64mb model in the SZ series like reduced heat, power and die size but i am just speculating.

 

So the 7400 in my sz270 has how much dedicated memory?

128MB or 64MB? For notebook, there will be great difference for those two.

Vista and xp reports as 128MB dedicated memory.

 

We need a lawyer. Anyone know how to start a class action law suit? I have Sony literature that reads 128mb of video ram.

 

"YES, all we should do is SUE THEM FOR ALL THEY'RE WORTH!!! YEAHHH!!!"
oh please..

when i bought mines it was clearly stated, and i knew exactly what i was going for:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834117322

Graphics Card:
NVIDIA GeForce Go 7400 and Intel GMA950

Video Memory:
NVIDIA GeForce Go 7400(TurboCache up to 128MB) and GMA950(Shared up to 128MB)


and with a 2 second search on wikipedia, i came up with this:
--------------------
NVIDIA's TurboCache technology is a method of allowing more framebuffer memory on select graphics cards by using both video memory and system memory by taking advantage of the high bandwidth provided by the PCI-Express bus. The technology is only available on TurboCache versions of select video cards. The difference between TurboCache enabled video cards and integrated graphics is that the video cards have a small amount of VRAM, while integrated graphics rely completely on system memory.

TurboCache was developed as a means to increase price/performance. The need for fewer memory modules reduces cost, ideal for budget systems and laptops. According to NVIDIA, a GeForce 6200 with TurboCache will perform about four times better than the Intel GMA 900.

It may be reported on the box that the graphics card has 128MiB or 256MiB. This figure often includes the system memory used with the memory on the graphics card, which may be as little as 64MiB or 32MiB.

Video cards that support TurboCache
GeForce 6200
GeForce 7100
GeForce 7300
GeForce 7400
--------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocache

 

Sony is cheating. If they say 64MB dedicate memory, I will not buy this sz270, because it's so low!

 

i had 2 Sonys ( K Series and FE Series) and when i bought mine very few sony laps had dedicated cards(in canada). All were shared. In fact as of now i think theres only 2 lines that had dedicated mem. The AR series and another one i think

 

thanks truelies for completely disregarding my post about what NVIDIA's turbocache technology is all about

this is not just a sony problem, as long as a manufacture uses a NVidia chip that utilizes TurboCache, it will borrow memory from the system memory.

 

it seems that there may be two different cards out there depending on when and where you have purchased the sz...

even the reviewers (professional reviews at that) reported 128 dedicated ram and virtual memory usage to give the turbocache value of 256.

i remain confused and duped but it seems that I am not the only one so with enough complains one day we will be recompense or get better products

 

The Turbocache is just a beautiful name. The shared memory card has been used in desktop for many years. It's slower than the dedicate memory and eats the system memory.

Any software to clearly show how much dedicate memory in the display card?

 

Folks,

If you stop and read the marketing spec's miss-spellings and all, there is nothing misleading.
If you look up the specs at eupport.sony.com for the VGNSZ430N middle top of the second page of the marketing specifications gives you the specs. And as with all manufacturers it points you to a note which in this case is #13. And States the video memory is setup the way it is due to the Vista operating system.
Mis-leading no, someone not reading, yes.
Have a great day everyone.

 

I own a SZ150 and have always believed that I had 128MB dedicated ram up until a couple months ago when there was a thread on these forums about it having 64MB.

For those of you trying to explain what Turbocache is:
Thanks, but I'm already familiar with the whole shared ram application. What the problem is here is that Sony advertised a 128MB Nvidia 7400 gpu plus turbocache when in fact it is a 64MB gpu with 128MB total shared ram. This is crap imo.

 

Neoguri,
Again..

It may be reported on the box that the graphics card has 128MiB or 256MiB. This figure often includes the system memory used with the memory on the graphics card, which may be as little as 64MiB or 32MiB.

--------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocache


They did not mislead at all. They advertised as having 128MB [total] RAM, no manufacture shows the breakdown of dedicated & shared ram used. They just specify how much total graphics memory is allocated to it [dedicated or otherwise]

And like you said, you didn't even realize until you started reading into the forums. I don't get why it's a big deal now when it wasn't a deal in the first place...

 

I think you should check your facts again billybob. Some manufacturers DO show the breakdown of dedicated and shared ram. And you're right...I didn't realize it until I read it on the forums...regardless I was still misled in my opinion.

And since when did wikipedia become the final word?

 

Wikipedia should not be used as focal point for research. I have come across articles which are incorrect and biased. But I do find it a useful tool for looking up general information.

Some more articles than just the typical marketing statement about Nvidia`s own technology as in the wikipedia article. (There on the 6200 TC desktop but is focused on the turbocache technology)

http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=9140&head=1&comments=1
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2004q4/geforce-6200-turbocache/index.x?pg=1

I think the thread was created initially by SZ users for two reasons:

A. Consumers who have been confused by the marketing on what the exact value of the on board video memory.
B. Consumers concerned with the performance of using shared video/system ram of the Nvidia Turbocache implementation.

The wording on the Geforce 7400 Go Memory specs does seem deliberately vague in certain Sony product locations. The first link I provided mentions the foreseeable future problem of labeling of video and system memory on these types of cards and consumer backlash.

Anyway It looks like with Vista. Sony only states the total amount of video ram now (319MB/1GB System Ram, 334MB/2GB System Ram). I think the argument was only applicable when Sony was advertising SZ series with Windows XP. (I guess they can`t hide the actual on-board video memory since Vista seems to report it correctly now, can someone confirm this?)

My Japanese is pretty bad so did a online translation and it looks like Sony Japan website did state correctly that part of the 128mb was using system memory with the WIN XP versions:

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/SZ3/spec_ownermade.html

*1 ..NVIDIA GeForce Go 7400 with NVIDIA TurboCache*1 video memory 128
MB or less (main memory sharing of part).”

I think the problem lies with Sony departments and Vendors in certain countries being evasive in their marketing strategy.

Hmm, I am wondering if they made any GPU changes in the new revision of the SZ (SZ5) soon to come out.

 

I just bought the VGN-AR320E(paid $1699.99+tx) I also thinking that it had 335mb dedicated memory but I just found out that it only has 64mb!!! This is @#$%-S#$@!!! This is a SCAM!!! even at the place I bought this laptop their advertise tag and that *******sales man clearly stated that it has 2gb of HDD along with 355mb of video ram. Am I the only one in the Twlight Zone???