Considering Sony Z, comments, suggestions?

Ok, I've been on the wait for the HP Envy 14. But in case it doesn't live up to the hype and/or I can't get the 25% Bing Cashback, I'm strongly considering the Sony Z as an alternative.

Can anyone give a quick rundown of the pros/cons that people have hashed out here? So much info to wade through.

I'm considering the i5-520m version from Micro Center with 128GB SSD. I guess a couple questions in particular I have are:

(1) SSD performance. Is TRIM supported, if not is there a manual garbage collection utility you can use?

(2) GPU - 330M is it stock clock or underclocked? I know Sony is known for underclocking GPU's. Also, does it overclock easily? How about driver support? Is it decent from Sony?

(3) Screen - One of the selling points that I like about the Envy 14 is the nice bright and quality screen. Is it good quality, bright, little to no backlight bleed, etc?

(4) Durability - I'm pretty easy on my laptops, but don't want it falling apart on me just from regular use.

(5) Noise and/or heat issues? Anything to be concerned about?

Finally while I will use it mainly for basic Windows apps, I do intend on playing some of the latest games. I don't expect highest details or anything, but want it to run at a decent framerate. I had an M11x for a while with the GT 335m and it managed well. The CPU was the bottleneck, obviously the 520m won't be.

I really appreciate input. Thanks a bunch.

 

Just read the FAQ

 

Thanks. But that is for the Z11, it's two months old, and lots of things can happen.

It answers (1) sort of, but not (2), (3), (4), and part of (5), it somewhat answers noise, but not really. Are some worse than others (like M11x), are there ways to throttle it down while minimizing heat buildup, etc?

 

In fact - nothing changed, even with the Z12, which still is a Z11. That's why the FAQ hasn't been updated for weeks.

(2) GPU is underclocked, but can be overclocked easily (see owners thread). There is no driver support.

(3) Yes, it is - see owners thread.

(4) Your Z won't.

(5) No. Cooling works pretty impressive, even under high loads.

 

I think Bing is ending sometime soon-ish (??)

If the drives are in RAID configuration (which they are, by default), then TRIM is not supported by Intel's Rapid Storage Technology (RST). But the good news is that the Samsung drives themselves appear to have their own garbage collection capability, independent of the OS.

It's underclocked, I use nVidia Inspector, some others use EVGA Precision. I can't make the settings stick though. Sony as usual does not update the video drivers.

It's good enough for me, no bleeding at the edges. I think the only negatives I've heard are (1) if you look at it real close and move your head from side-to-side quickly (so that no persistence of vision comes into play), you get to see diagonal lines on the screen. I believe with high enough refresh and if I use it normally, I don't ever see these lines (2) it's not IPS, so the lighting is not uniform vertically.

So far so good for mine. Quite well built I would say, a lot of thought went into making it as slim and light as it is. I've taken it apart quite a few times, and it's still holding up pretty well. I hear it's easier to mod than the previous Z.

Most of the time I can't hear the fan, when there's something intensive like rendering games' graphics then it heats up and the fan can be heard. Then again, which laptop's fan is completely silent?

Somebody should try doing a liquid-cooling mod in the Z, that would be, er, cool

 

Here is my stab at your questions...

1. No, TRIM is not currently supported. But there is garbage collection at work. I recommend you read through the Sony Z11 Long Term SSD Performance thread. http://forum.notebookreview.com/son...g-term-ssd-performance-post-your-results.html. The results seem favorable. I would just make sure you stay up to date on Intel's Rapid Storage Technology program (9.6 is the latest version).

2. It is not clocked to what you would expect for the standard GT 330m. Most people have called this an underclock, though I just saw a post the other day that suggested this is actually a lower rated version of the GT 330m running at its normal level. Either way, yes it can be overclocked. I have experienced no throttling or heat issues so far with my overclock. Check out this thread, it's not too long: http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/473593-sony-z-m11x-3dmark06-scores.html

3. The screen is the most amazing laptop screen I've ever seen. Granted, I've had only three or four laptops, none of which had remarkable screens. I think the Z's screen is remarkable. Even at the lowest brightness setting I find it very easy to see and use.

4. I believe the chassis is aluminum with plastic underneath. The aluminum feels sturdy but the plastic has sort of a cheaper feeling to it. It doesn't feel as sturdy as my Dell Inspiron. And I think you'll need to take care of the screen especially. But if you're careful, I don't think you'll have any problems.

5. Many have complained about the fan noise. In addition to the whoosh of air, the fan has a "whine" to it that many find annoying. I personally don't mind it, and I ususally can't hear it anyway if I'm using headphones or there is ambient noise in the room. If you were in a quiet room with no volume on the laptop speakers or headphones, you can easily hear the fan under load. But it only runs loud when it's under load, at least in my experience. As for heat, I have been very pleased thus far. Even with an overclock under heavy load, the temps have stayed manageble (only my ACPI temp has broken the 90 mark--my GPU and CPU cores have remained below 90).

Yep, no CPU bottleneck in this system. The 330m will have trouble before your CPU does. But I've been playing some Modern Warfare and GTA IV on high detail settings and native resolution with no stuttering. It's definitely not a walk in the park though for the Z, as that fan is really working hard. And I wouldn't expect high detail settings or even native resolution for some more modern games like Crysis.

 

Thanks to all you guys (gals?)! Great info. Appreciate you taking the time.

My biggest concern I think is the driver updates. I ran into that issue with hybrid graphics on a Lenovo I had. They released drivers at launch and no drivers afterwards, so sold the laptop about a year later because of it.

Regarding Bing, yes it is ending soon, July 30. But right now you can get 25% Bing cashback on all HP PCs and laptops. That offer comes and goes though unfortunately. If it's not here when the Envy 14 is released (supposed to be in a couple days) I'm hoping 25% BCB will be back before the program ends July 30. Otherwise with the equipment I want on the Envy 14 it will cost about $1500, and I think the Sony is a better buy for not much more money.

 

(1) SSD performance. Is TRIM supported, if not is there a manual garbage collection utility you can use?

I suppose it's not supported.

(2) GPU - 330M is it stock clock or underclocked? I know Sony is known for underclocking GPU's. Also, does it overclock easily? How about driver support? Is it decent from Sony?

It's underclocked for heating issues.

(3) Screen - One of the selling points that I like about the Envy 14 is the nice bright and quality screen. Is it good quality, bright, little to no backlight bleed, etc?

VAIO flagship models always came with excellent screens.

(4) Durability - I'm pretty easy on my laptops, but don't want it falling apart on me just from regular use.

It should be very durable. Especially equipped with SSD, no more worry about shaking.

(5) Noise and/or heat issues? Anything to be concerned about?

When you stress both CPU and GPU you get the fan running noisy. This is what happens when you play games. Moreover, don't expect to run a lot of games - the graphics card is a bottleneck which doesn't even support DX11 and is not future proof at all.

 

I can answer this as well. You are getting some incorrect info.

1.) No trim due to raid, but GC appears to be working nicely.
2.) It's a low power version of the 330M and runs at lower speeds than other 330M's. The analogy would be thinking of an Intel LV CPU. Anyhow you can overclock and no it is NOT underclocked.
3.) Unbelievable screen. Not IPS though.
4.) Very durable. The c-panel is aluminum, the d panel I believe is carbon fiber (not plastic)
5.) Normal use it's very quiet if not silent, under load it can get a bit noisy.

 

Would you mind letting us know where you're getting the GPU specs from, please? And post a link to that document / website, if you don't mind.

 

About gaming, I thought the M11x handled gaming admirably, so if I can overclock a little and get similar or better performance than the stock clocked GT 335m in the M11x I'll be happy.

I really don't want to spend $1700 on a notebook, but if I can't get a deal on the Envy 14, I might as well get the best package available.

 

sorry double post

 

I've posted the model # of our nvidia part in other posts and you'll see a few hits out there indicating it's lower voltage/clock speed. (look at my post history)

There doesn't appear to be any publicly available technical documents out there, but I have confirmed this with my Nvidia contact.

If I can dig something up I'll let you know.

 

IIRC, you posted two code names for GT 330M, but without any evidence that the one in the Z is that of the lower-powered chip. I have also not been able to find anything more about lower-capability-330m. Until I see that evidence for myself, I'm afraid I'm not able to bring myself to believe that's true.

What would be great is some tool that'll indicate the codename, but I haven't been able to find one either.

 

CPU-Z gives the codename. So does GPU-Z. Here's a shot from my current 260m GPU.

 

In case you have not seen it here's a review of the Z series from Note Book Check. Notebookcheck: Review Sony Vaio VPCZ11X9E/B Notebook

 

Here's mine, it doesn't have that particular type of codename:



From Notebookcheck: Mobile Graphics Cards - Benchmark List, it should be something like "N11P-GE1", which seems to be the only way to tell (from what beaups posted before).


Anyway, I'm not hung up on this: as long as I can run around relatively smoothly in Oblivion and complete quests I'm happy

 

Try GPU-Z, it has "device ID" and don't know if that is what you're looking for. Either way that Notebookcheck.net article noted it shouldn't be called a GT 330m, maybe a GT 326M or something.

 

Nope:



I think the 'codename' is an unofficial one known only to the engineers, and not placed on chip somewhere...

 

But note that they indicate it is "downclocked and thus only achieves the rate of a GeForce GT 325m." The reviewers too seem to indicate it is a regular GT 330m (N11P-GE1) that is downclocked, not the N11P-LP version which I think beaups is indicating is in the Z (beaups, correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Either way if you can achieve ~ 8000 3DMarks it's a good performer. Temps just concern me though. 90C is still hot no matter how you look at it. But it seems to be managed well.

 

Admittedly I haven't seen any Z owners with a 3DMark06 of 8000. I haven't seen heat being the issue here, but rather system instability. When I reached 3DMark06 of around 7500 I didn't try to push the overclock any further, as I was satisfied with that. I'm sure it could be pushed further as I know other have overclocked theirs more than mine.

 

We have very similar taste in laptops I've only had the Z for 2 days, didn't really put it through its paces yet, but I'll post a few things compared to the Envy 15 and M11x.

1 - The dual SSD in RAID0 setup is certainly fast. It's faster in sequential read (not very meaningful) than my single 160GB Intel G2 in both the Envy 15 and the M11x, but it is slower in random access large or small files. If I had a choice I would put the Intel in here. Of course you probably already know the SSD in the Z is proprietary.

2 - I don't know the details on what GPU is clocked at what speed. I did just ran Street Fighter 4 (sorry I don't play the more hardcore game) benchmark, Z=49fps, M11x=72fps, Envy15=90fps, 1280x768 high settings on all. Good enough for me. No surprise the M11x is WAY faster than the Z, never mind the Envy15. It's OK I'm light duty gamer.

3 - Quality wise, vertical viewing angle seems very limited (may be more pronounced because it's a matte screen which is great), definitely more limited than my Envy 15's 1080p screen, BUT at least the Z has a good range of tilt (feels like 150-160 degrees vs the Envy 15's which doesn't seem to go past 100) to get just the right angle. Color is on the warm side on the Z (white is not as cold as the Envy). Brightness is decent, not quite as bright as the Envy 15, but brighter than the M11x. What I do LOVE is the 1600x900 resolution in such a small chassis, I need the space to do my VM stuff. 1080p would be even better (it IS an option on the Z!), but my eyes are not that good LOL. The M11x could have been so perfect for its price and capabilities, but the screen doesn't do it for me (not enough desktop space, VERY bad glare worse I've seen, you see a double reflection of yourself!) and I don't like Optimus. The Envy 15's screen is just gorgeous, too bad this thing feels like a netbook on battery power. I will miss it. The Z is the perfect blend between the HP and the Alienware.

4 - Being only a 3lbs chassis, it definitely *feels* delicate, but that's not to say it's flimsy. The bottom feels more like magnesium to me. I'm very careful with my computers so it's perfectly fine.

5 - The fan is always on low, doesn't bother me. After running the SF4 benchmark, the GPU and CPU read 70's c. So far it seems to idle at around 50 on both. The air coming out of the vent was pretty hot when the fan was on high, but interestingly with the thing sitting on my lap, it didn't really get that hot, compared to the Envy 15 it can get uncomfortably hot when both CPU and GPU are maxed out.

I don't know which M11x you had, but the R2 I have with the 620UM is significantly more responsive doing regular Windows tasks, on AC or battery, unlike the Envy 15 which feels like the M11x R1 when on battery doing regular tasks. The Z feels very responsive at all times. I love it!

That's all I can think of for now.

 

@ andye39s - Thanks for detailed response! I'd rep you but I'm all repped out for today. I'll try to remember tomorrow.

Anyhow, I'm surprised the M11x fared so much better in SF4 than the Z because in reality the 330m isn't that much slower than the 335m. I had an R1 M11x. The 335m was definitely powerful enough for most anything, but the CPU did hold it back in a few cases.

I'd love a 1080p screen too, but in a 13" it is too tiny plus you can only get it through Sony that I can see and those setups are a lot more expensive than at Micro Center.

 

I am of the belief that Sony is indeed using the N11P-LP not only in the Z, but a few other models. I have some reasonable confirmation from contacts that this is correct, but I cannot say 100% absolutely sure that this is correct.

There certainly isn't any evidence that it's the N11P-GE1 either

 

Remember part of the 3dmark challenge with the Z is the slower DRAM they are using.

 

From notebookcheck.

 

Thanks shurcooL. I think the debate at this point is which one is in the Vaio Z11/12? GE1 or LP?

 

I can say with about 90% certainty that it's the LP...but probably no way to know 100% unless we rip off the thermal solution. And even then we might not know for sure.

Regardless of what I've been told, it would seem to make much more sense for them to use the LP and get the power and thermal savings as opposed to downclocking the GE1.

Sony's CW series was explicitly listed on many etail sites as having Nvidia N11P-LP graphics.

 

Wow, the Microcenter that's near my brother's house has nine of these Z12's in stock right now... I'm thinking it might be time for a visit

For those that are near a Microcenter that carries these things, I highly recommend you go visit in person, you'll get a good sense of your feelings about the model, and also Microcenter is a GREAT store. I love that place.

 

Assuming for the moment that you are right, is there any difference in messing with clock speeds on an LP GPU versus a full powered one?

 

My bad, I ran SF4 with vsync ON. I reran it vsync off and got 65fps average, much better! Now I won't feel so bad letting them go.

Honestly, I would have preferred to stick with the Envy15 (I actually bought a 2yrs HP accidental warranty on it, a first for me!) if it weren't for the ridiculous 9x multiplier on battery, I do love the 5830 and the gorgeous screen. Performance is just so inconsistent on battery, sometimes it's OK, other times it just drags. No it's not the OS, I installed my own clean OS as I always do. Plug in the AC and it's fine.

Here's a pic. Note the Envy 15 was on battery power running the SF4 benchmark, meaning the CPU was at 1.2GHz. Had no effect on the performance.

Gotta get Steam on the Z to see how Dirt2 runs.

 

Why's that? Just the faster video card and better screen? In what way is it better?

 

Mainly because the Z is 80% the price of BOTH the Envy 15 and the Alienware, plus what you said. It'd be a total no brainer if it's priced closer to the Envy.

I do love the Z. Some awesome engineering went into this thing. I get more battery life out of the Z than the Alienware with its 8 cell battery and ULV CPU! (I get no more than 4.5hrs out of the AW just doing regular stuff, maybe a dud battery as it shows 7% wear on a brand new laptop).

 

must be incredibly nerve-wracking! there's nothing wrong with a good deal, but i can't stand how some manufacturers have deals that disappear and come back again and are time-sensitive. it would make me crazy! especially if i had to wait to order

 

I see, thanks. Can you plz elaborate on how the screen on Envy 15 compares to the Z?

 

Yes, it does suck. The 25% just disappeared, it's back to 10%. But considering the 25% appeared every 2-4 weeks I'm assuming it'll be back before Bing Cashback ends July 30. If not, well, I'll have new decisions to make. I don't "NEED" a new laptop at the moment, but as much as I love my Sager, it's just too heavy to pick up and go on a whim. I don't want to have to worry about plugging in every time I want to use it either, even for occasional gaming.

 

I looked at the Z available in Micro Center and this really has me intrigued...

It is at $1699 with

i5 520M
4 GB
1600x900 (not full HD but enough for 13.3" since I have bad eye sight)
Win7 Pro
128GB SSD

So I spec'ed ENVY 14 upto same specifications and I'm at 1,538 with 10% EPP discount. (albeit it is 330M vs 5650 and 128GB SSD vs 160GB SSD, but it is also 2 lbs lighter). So there is only $161 difference... I'm kind of worried about HP's build quality and failing HP's all around me at work.

 

Yep, I'm in a similar bind. But I don't know if I can swing $1700 at the moment. If I can live with an HDD I can get the Envy 14 for about $1200 shipped with 520m, 4GB, 1600x900, Win7 HP, 500GB SSD, HD 5650. As long as build quality is good, its a winner. Just buy an SSD later when prices get cheaper. I like SSD's but not sure it's worth $500 to me!

 

IMO, Z is not a good laptop for you if you don't care that weighs only 3.04 lbs. You'd be wasting money and get a smaller/less gfx power laptop than you can otherwise.

 

Good point...Z isn't a good laptop unless you care about size, horsepower, battery life, weight, screen quality, built in optical drive, or ssd's. If you don't care about any of this stuff you're really wasting your time with the z.............

 

I look at the Envy 14 as the Z's big brother really. Similar specs, minus Blu-ray option, but in a 14.5" chassis. You're always going to pay a premium for a comparable performing laptop in a smaller chassis. At $1700 with the Z's specs it's a good deal IMHO. But the price is just hard to swallow for me at the moment.

 

That is what is killing me as well. I know $1700 for all that is a good deal, but I just spent similar amount of money on a vacation trip and it is really hard to swallow, where as with ENVY it will be ~1,100 if I spec it frugally with HDD.

 

Raid SSDs are the foundation of the Z's performance imo. For most tasks, the cpu / gpu / memory isn't going to make a huge difference once you're over a reasonable threshold, but the raid ssds have a huge impact. My z feels so much faster and more powerful than virtually any other computer I've ever used simply because the raid ssds make most tasks happen close to instantly.

So much so that now if I have to wait a couple of seconds for something to load up, I wonder if the computer is playing up...

After having used the ssds on the z, I don't think I could buy a new computer that didn't have an ssd drive at least for the OS and frequently used applications.

 

I have the same idea, also for me the ssd quad raid is the biggest force in the Z. (Also the 1920x1080 screen...)

 

Do gpus work like cpus, i.e. the lower rated version is basically from a production run that produced slightly less stable chips?

I'm having a bit of trouble squaring the fact that people are managing to overclock the z's 330m to 630 without too much trouble, which would be a 10% increase over the stock 330m speed of 575, never mind the z's factory speed of 475.

Ofc it could be that the people who have tried overclocking so far have just been luckier with their gpus.

I haven't yet tried to oc my z, mainly because my current idle temps are too high at stock speeds due to ambient temperature, however I'm interested to know the z's potential for gaming purposes.

 

Are there any relatively inexpensive blu-ray combo drives available for the Z12?

Conversely, anyone selling/swap+cash the Blu-ray drive from their Z?

 

I agree with the statements about the SSDs in RAID. I think that aspect separates the Z from the rest of the market. It really does make a huge difference in a user's perception of speed.

I don't know about the GPU vs. CPU when it comes to the lower rated versions. But I can say that the Z does stay suprisingly stable (and cool) with a relatively large overclock. I run mine at 620 whenever I play a game. My GPU core temp still hasn't broken 90, and that's even when running a game on the big screen via HDMI. I've been a little surprised so far at how well the Z can run games since it is not really a gaming computer, though granted I am playing games from a few years ago. I guess it's worth noting too that my ambient temps are relatively cool.

 

Ok, now that the Envy 14 has finally been released, and some users have received their units, overall it looks good. Except battery life is only about 4 hours with light use. Add i5-520m + "slice" battery (for now seems 6+ hours use) adds 1.5 lbs and $200 + 160GB SSD = ~ $1800 + taxes

You can get the Z model from Micro Center (i5-520m, 4GB, 128GB SSD) for $1700 + taxes. From what I've read the Z can manage about 5 hours with web use, is this accurate? Now one more thing, what about gaming on battery? Has anyone tried this and how long can you game on battery? I don't care what game, just something that stresses the CPU and GPU decently, just to get an idea.

Thanks!

 

^5 hours is about right for light web use and low brightness setting. You can even get a little more than that if you're careful. Playing 720p movies from the HDD at 75% brightness with wifi off (ie on a flight) I get 3.5-4 hours. Not bad. For gaming, it depends, but you can torch the battery in an hour if you try.