Ebay seller service-and-sales defrauded many NBR users - Resolved. Unfortunate Seller Error

Forking from the thread http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/556513-new-sony-vaio-z-speculation-news-thread-391.html to continue discussion about the ebay seller fraud (relevant posts from post 3907 onwards)

Context:

Many NBR forum members bought this seemingly amazing deal of a brand new Sony Vaio Z on ebay for $899 from the seller service-and-sales. This seller had 100% positive feedback over 60,000+ transactions and seemed legit.

However a day after the purchase, the seller deleted the listings and the buyers (us) have to go through the ebay resolution mess to get our money back. Apparently since the listings are deleted, ebay doesnt even let you post a negative feedback on the seller to warn other buyers.

NBR users: if you have purchased a laptop from this service-and-sales, please check if you still have the transaction in your purchase history and if not, contact ebay/paypal and/or credit card to notify them of this fraud.

 

From user Carlisle David on the other thread

"It apparently is uncommon but not unheard of that listings get removed for description errors that violate e-bay's TOS, and then the products are delivered without incident.The person I talked to did say that if the seller does not respond within 10 days with a valid tracking number for the shipment of the computer that my money will be refunded."

Lets hope that the seller honors the transactions.

 

Taking all relevant posts from the other thread and putting them here for reference.

 

I'm hoping for the same. I seen before when I went to leave positive feedback that the transaction has been removed.

 

What's rather bizarre is that the seller left me positive feedback and thanked me for my great communication. I never communicated with this guy once.

We'll see shortly. He must have several complaints against him by now.

 

Can u still access your transaction? I believe the feedbacks were left by a bot and seller has several canned feedbacks that bot chooses from.

 

I got the same feedback. I read somewhere in the information about the seller that they post 5 star feedback automatically once they receive your money.

The only part of my transaction that I can see is the PayPal record of the transaction.

 

There's no history of the transaction on EBay anymore. It does however appear in PayPal. I'm giving the seller one day to respond. If this is fraudulent, then this seller is a mastermind. 61,500 transactions with 100% positive feedback???

 

Just emailed the seller. No response yet. Anyone else?

 

He prolly is someone working inside Ebay? The Departed..

 

I had messaged the seller with two different questions before the listings were removed and got this response

"Thank you for writing, we are closed weekends and will reply Monday when we reopen

larry "

I've messaged him again today asking about the deleted listing. If I dont hear anything back from him by tomorrow, i would 100% be convinced that this is fraud and looking at avenues to not just get my money back but to also ensure that appropriate action is taken to caution future buyers.

 

Argh - I ordered one, blindly and unconsciously following the herd on this forum. If this turns out to be a scam, this would be the first time I am defrauded online - and I thought I was careful.

Also, this is the first time for 4 years that I have used ebay again after getting fed up with all the scammers and fake auctions. Since then I have almost exclusively used Amazon - this mess reminds me of the reasons.

eBay is a complete and utter mess. One could almost think there is a system behind the madness. NEVER NEVER NEVER again.

 

I just received an email from both PayPal and the seller that my account has been refunded for the full selling price.

Here is the email from the seller:

 

So much for the hopes. Oh, well, then its gonna be z21 for me

 

I doubt that the model # difference was a typo. The whole specs and everything was a Z and not an S. So seems more intentional than a typo. That is a deadbeat seller. If he doesnt list 100+ Vaio S in the next few days, I am calling it BS.

 

Bingo. It was absolutely intentional. Everyone should report this seller to EBay for attempted fraud.

 

Hello, we are the ebay seller service-and-sales, at our request with ebay's help the unit was pulled simply because our account was hacked. We never had a Z model only an S model, it was changed over Friday night while we were closed and we only had qty 7 to begin with, how it kept relisting to the point over 150 sold is still something ebay and us are working on. We apologize to everyone who purchased, we are working thru the night to refund everyone IN FULL. We do have a great reputation 60k+positive 100% and ask for the benefit of the doubt that this was something beyond our control and are taking the right steps to rectify it. Anyone who sincerely wants to hear it from our ebay rep is free to contact thru ebay me and I will pass on your email to our rep. Thank you for the opportunity to reply and we hope this alleviates anyone's concern. Larry

 

virgin post

 

This kind of stuff only happens if Ebay initiates a fraud action. A seller can't make his listing disappear. So Ebay took it off. Thus they will refund your money. It's Ebay looking out for you. It's happened to me before.

 

Hello, I was not familiar with this site until someone graciously told me of the discussion here regarding the item that was mis-sold. We did post a detailed reply and hope it reaches everyone. All ebay inquires will be replied to, there have been a tremendous volume of emails and it will take a bit if time to work thru.
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt! Larry

 

We do not have 100 S model, we only had 7 to begin with and listed 7. If you notice every time it sold while we were closed it kept popping up again with another 7 or 8 units like it was on some automated system. Once we straighten this mess up we will be putting up the S model. We are not a deadbeat seller, this was a truly freak occurance and the 1st time something like this has happened to us in over 10 years on ebay. We have worked very hard to build our rep and which is why we are writing here to emphasize the nature of this unusual event. Thank you for your time. Larry

 

Larry - I appreciate you clarifying the error and working on quickly refunding the buyers. Hope to see my refund soon

 

I had ordered (and paid) for some VPCZ134GX accessories from other buyers under the assumption that our transaction would be honored. I will be in the red for about $26 for accessories that i cant use. I can ask ebay to cover for it (should the other buyers insist on not refunding me), if you can tell if whether the automatic relisting was a result of an error in the ebay or ebay supported tools.

If this was a genuine error on your side and not from ebay's tools, then I will let it slide and hope that i can put these accessories to some other use.

 

mysteriously sold over 150 Z laptops in 24 hours?! Man... this is one scary out-of-control episode...

 

That is 100% correct. I did a full analysis and wrote a long letter to them and promised it would go to the BBB and Attorney General if they don't make good. I strongly believe they got a great price buying them, figured they'd blow them out and make a quick, say $15,000 (@$150 profit/unit) then realized that was way too low and they could make much more if they cancelled these sales and found a surreptitious way to sell them through "channels." Just a few points of "evidence" that their explanation was a lie:

1. On July 8 and 9 they did 5 transactions with bostonconsultinggroup (no, not the famous high brow firm in Boston, a cheapo electronics supplier who hijaced their name.), a firm that has recently sold 100 or more new Z13s. Mysteriously, unlike every other buyer with recent transactions posted in feedback, all of Sales-and-Services transactions omitted the product name and when you click on "View item" you get a splash screen that "this listing has been removed." This is the only such feedback oddities on bostconsgroup's lists - all the other Z's said so in the feedback line and showed the product when you clicked on view item

2. sales and service is selling an S13 (slightly different model#) on its eBay store for $739, not $899, which no one would pay.

3. As mentioned by others, but let's focus on it, salesandservice had full listing copy for the Z13, though it had never before sold this computer that I can tell. How could copy, pictures and a good but not unimaginable price for a Z show up when they had never before sold it? How did the $899 price get there if they are selling the S13 for $739?

4. I wrote to the seller mid day Saturday about the bizarre on/off listings for the Sony Z computer and he responded that he noticed I had been successful purchasing one, so assumes I'm ok. He saw the "Sony Z" I wrote in my message. He knows the business. He knows damn well what a "Sony Z" is vs. a "Sony S" Give me a break!

5. If it was a legitimate mistake, why did they not do what any decent vendor does: a) offer alternatives they have in stock at a special price and/or, b) provide, say, a $100 coupon for all those with cancelled orders. I don't think this necessarily supports whether there was fraud, but frankly when a vendor with a 100% rating and over 60,000 transactions makes a mistake like this, they do something to keep people from trashing them. If they did something sleazy, maybe they just wanted to get their Z's back to make an additions $300 or so per unit. If they really did have 100 units (again, be very interested in what those disguised purchases from bostonconsultinggroup on July 8 and 9 were - almost impossible they were not Z's given that they have been selling them like hotcakes to consumers lately, did 5 transactions with salesandservice, eliminated all traces of what they bought, unlike every other listing under 60 days old!)...the point being, if they did have 100 or so, and they realized they low-balled by $300 each, we're talking an additional $30,000 in profits on what was likely a $75,000 purchase (figure $750 cost to them - maybe bostcongrp needed the cash and sales and service was willing to buy the lot for cash, immediately - so, something like a 40% additional ROI in a matter of days if they cancelled the sales to us and found a way to get them re-sold at around $1,200

And what the heck was the on-again, off-again listings about? Clearly, they called attention to the company of just what it was listing. They admit to being aware of it (I cannot be the only one who wrote in about it. Oh, and, they made no comment about WHY the listing kept going up and down, they just said "looks like you got one, so I guess there's no issue." This was not the response of a company who knew eBay's system was "going haywire" and they couldn't stop it for a full day!

If this doesn't reek "class action" I don't know what does. They breached contracts and it is probably easy to prove it was with fraud underlying the reason. Problem is, they are probably way to small to sue. But they're not too small to give sizeable cash rebates or much more sizeable coupons. They need to feel the pressure. BTW, the nicey-nicey letters Larry Brooks posted on NBR are in stark contrast to the nasty tone of his 2 messages back to me.

This kind of stuff really burns me up. Just not quite sure what to do and when. I will do the leg work for all of us, but would like to hear some thoughts. BTW, I have some "cred" doing this. There was a much smaller deal for Z refurbs from cheetahdeals.com and they were not honoring their warranties and had fraudulently advertised that Sony was providing the 90 day warranty. I wrote the the CEO, firm but not belligerrent, and got calls from TWO executives before 8:30 the next morning. They took care of everyone (there were some bad screens, mine turned out to have coffee grinds inside it that made their way to the boot SSD a few days after I had it! I think everyone got taken care of; I got a lot of PMs from people saying they did.

 

you serious? only in america.
you paid for goods at a "too good to be true" price. turns out it WAS too good to be true, and the seller cancelled the order (which believe it or not they often do have the right to do). you get your money back. end of story.

 

lovelaptops - totally with you on this. Let me know how I can help with this. This really feels like a fraud on multiple levels. We should really get down to the bottom of this.

sales-and-service - man up and take the negative feedback. if you don't, we have every reason to believe that you have used similar sleazeball tactics in the past to eliminate/avoid the negative feedbacks.

 

Exactly, caveat emptor.
Now you have to file a claim for a fraudulent transaction.

 

Actually, in America, Canada, U.K., Europe, many other law-based societies, this is a crystal clear case of breach of contract and the consumer is considered harmed and the seller liable for damages. The price wasn't really "too good to be true," given that these have been blown out for as little as $999 before and we're down to the last very few likely around, it was very nice, but entirely believable. What isn't believable is the seller's bizarre explanation. Like, yeah, he was really planning on selling last year's S13 for $899 when he was already selling a nearly identical model for what it's worth: $739 and eBay's system just went berzerk on him and though he knew it early Saturday afternoon, he preceded to "sell" dozens more units. It's often not the act but the "cover up" that burns people up and shows bad faith. What will really be an injustice is if he makes no attempt for any kind of restitution and his record is left untarnished after this. I'll do what I can to see that doesn't happen, and I suspect a few others will too.

 

I've been exchanging messages with sales-and-service asking him to explain many of the inconsistencies. Most of it check out and seem like genuine mistakes... and seems like something a common person (eg. I) might make.

1. I asked him to explain why the typo expanded into the listing description, image etc. He indicated that he uses the Blackthorne order entering tool by ebay and made the typo there. The tool then auto populated the spec and image.

2. I asked him to explain why the price was 899 and not 739 if as per him he thought he was selling the S13. He indicated that he bumped it up because they sold so fast and thought that he migh be underpricing it. This seems to check out since I remember vaguely that the first few Z13s were sold for 839 and then after some time the other Z13s were sold for 899 and left for the day/weekend.

3. I told him that he would have to compensate me for the accessories that I ordered and have no use for now. He was willing to do that, props where due. I let it slide though and took the hit myself, since I can see anyone including myself making similar typos/mistakes.

Another thing was he promptly came to this forum and explained the situation rather than hiding from it and being a jerk. He spent the whole night refunding people's money.

Overall I have been satisified with how he responded to the situation and the answers to the concerns. I think this is a case of a genuine mistake and we should leave it at that.

 

Seeing how he handled the situation, can he relist the item page, so that I may leave a positive feedback saying 'dude couldn't deliver b/c of some mistakes, i was really frustrated, but props to him for handling this well, and more importantly, being honest and taking the time to explain to customers A++++ wouldn't mind being disappointed again'

Joking aside, I appreciate what he has done so far, even if it's a mistake on his part.

 

Just bought the exact same model brand new on Amazon for $1,399 and free shipping. Let's hope it's for real this time!! They currently have 12 left.

 

Isn't that from another ebay seller Blinq?

 

Yes. They are selling units through Amazon and their own website as well.

 

^Well hopefully they aren't waiting on their shipment from "service-and-sales"...seems kind of coincidental that the exact same model is showing up at significantly under market price. I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

To be honest, I've had the same exchange of emails (4 today!) but the one thing I don't buy is $899 price for the S13 - JR sells em for $799, and they sell them for $739. Finally, the model they are talking about, the S13, sold for $950 from Sony (comparably equipped) when they had it in their line as a current model. So, while he has some "good answers," this one absolutely does not convince me. Also, he refused to tell me what he sold to bostonconsultinggroup on July 9, why it was the only transaction removed from view (the sales went through - they just left the detail out and when you click on the link from bcg's feedback site, the deals on Jul 9 with sales and service are the only ones blocked from view. that take you to the same "this item has been removed" screen that Larry's Z "sales" to us also shows.) I find it hard to believe they didn't sell out their stock of Zs to bost consltg, who sells (and therefore buys) a ton of Zs, and who may well have offered more than $899 to take the lot of how many Larry had.

I'm frankly too busy to pursue this, especially without wide interest, but frankly, the inconsistencies above truly do not pass the "smell test," but I'm pretty sure we will never know. Be interesting to see if he every puts up 7 of those S13s he claimed he meant to list, for $899. Also interesting to see if a significant number of new Z's, black Z13s appear anywhere but on Blinq.com. I'll probably monitorthese and bostconsgroup's buyer feedback to see if they sell a bunch of those Z13's in the near future - it is the only way, because it doesn't appear they list most of their item sales. If any of these turn up "smelling rotten," I'll pass it along to eBay and let them do what they want.

 

In fairness, Blinq has been selling these models for $1,399 for a couple of weeks now. They did remove them from their eBay site (not from their own web site though) while the $899 listing was up. I don't think that was collusion as much as just seeing there was not competing while someone sold the same unit for $500 less.

It's probably not as bad as it first appeared, but it's definitely not "kosher." One gets a sense about these things, especially with all the q&a.

 

I'm not implying collusion, simply somebody finding a deal and reselling it for profit...in this case perhaps before actually receiving it. Hopefully the buyer here keeps us informed and the deal is legit.

 

^It would pretty brazen of them to attempt to sell stock they don't have through Amazon but I suppose anything is possible. I'll keep everyone up to date. $1399 is still a suspiciously low price. Next closest I have seen is $1699.

 

Again, I can assure you this one is totally legit. They had over 100 in stock and have been selling them at this price for at least 3 weeks - via Amazon, eBay and directly on Blinq.com. They usually publish stocks available in lots and, frankly, that number has been declining rather slowly. I don't think $1,399 is widely considered a great deal on the stripped down retail model of the Z now that it is months discontinued (btw, I disagree, but I'm prejudiced, as are most owners) I don't think as many non-owners are wowed by this price. It was sold at $1,699 for almost a full year at Micro Center, and I believe at Cost Central as well. The Microsoft store blew them out for $999 during a special and $1,399 during another. I think the price integrity has been diminished by those cut rate deals over some time plus the "outdated" hardware in the Z1. Further, I think the $800 deals widely publicized for the ThinkPad X220, $1,100 for the X1, even the prices of the SA (most people don't understand the screen quality issue - but they do understand cpu, gpu, etc.)

Ok, I'm done.

Disclaimer on all the above: IMO

PS: BTW, talk about low prices, I lost an amazing auction on eBay today due to dumb cold feet: Z12 - i7-640 (seller had it custom done, from i7-620! ), 512GB SSD, FHD display, WWAN, 8GB, BR DVD, Carbon fiber with coating. went for $2,200! Probably sold new for $5,000. Seller had 0 transactions on eBay and auction ended at 1 PM today, possibly explaining super low price.

 

Good things are going to continue to come to us Z1 users. I suspect we will be getting great condition Z's at a steal very soon. I for one will be holding on to my Z1 for awhile. I have a feeling that there will be several upgraders out there that had wished they kept their Z1.


Licking chops

 

Hello, in all fairness, the whole incident was an unfortunate error that lasted about 24 hours, as soon as we became aware we did our best to stop it and resolve the issue. We did not have, nor ever had Z models. We do not have an Amazon presence. We never purchased from Boston (although, they have made purchases from us). We recently put up our real stock of S models (779.00-if they do not sell, we will eventually go down a little). We have been a reputable seller for over 10 years on ebay and over 22 years in general. Logically what gain did we get from this error, bad press, a customer service relations headache? Even for the skeptics who think we gained profit from an item we do not have, we would not risk our long term reputation for a few thousand dollars. We sincerely apologize for this unforseen and unexpected error and are trying to take responsibility and make it right by communicating with you. If anyone still has a question please feel free to contact us thru ebay. Thank you for your understanding. Larry Ross

 

Mods please update thread title and append the following to it : " - Resolved. Unfortunate Seller Error".

 

^Agreed - I think they've been tortured by this long enough. They've obviously had a huge mess to clean up and they've done a good job thus far.

 

Please just answer this one question:

What did you sell to bostonconsultinggroup on July 8 and July 9 (see below) and why are those the ONLY things they bought from anyone where the item is not listed in the description and the "view item" link goes to a screen that says "this listing has been removed," an identical screen to own listing for the Sony Z's at $899 after you took it down.

It's true, this is your private business (though when you do business via eBay, you have to accept a level of transparency unless you pull strings to get your transactions all hidden, but it is incredibly suspicious that you sold numerous items to bostonconsultinggroup on the exact day you listed the "nonexistent" Sony Zs and they are the ONLY completely untraceable transactions in the group's buying feedback.

It is also strange that you are selling that Sony S that you insisted you planned to sell for $899 for $779. (It might have been nice to offer first crack, and a better discount, to the purchaser's who got stiffed over the weekeind.)

Sorry if i am not as easily forgiving as some of my fellow members. I have been a forensic accountant and one develops a sixth sense for ambiguous excuses. I promise to drop my complaints if you will please open this intentionally concealed business you did with a major buyer/seller of Sony Z's on the exact day of your listing "mistake."

Thanks.

	Excellent buyer * 5 Stars * bought and paid on the spot!	Seller: Member id service-and-sales ( Feedback Score Of 61512)	Jul-09-11 10:14
	-- (#370525683962)	--	View Item --
	Excellent buyer * 5 Stars * bought and paid on the spot!	Seller: Member id service-and-sales ( Feedback Score Of 61512)	Jul-08-11 17:57
	-- (#370525513037)	--	View Item --
	New-Items-Only thanks you for your business. Great Client, Fast Pay! 5 stars	Seller: Member id service-and-sales ( Feedback Score Of 61512)	Jul-08-11 17:49
	-- (#370525510469)	--	View Item --
	Great communication. A pleasure to do business with. 5 Stars	Seller: Member id service-and-sales ( Feedback Score Of 61512)	Jul-08-11 17:32
	-- (#330586278513)	--	View Item --
	5 Star Buyer, purchased and paid immediately, thank you for your business	Seller: Member id service-and-sales ( Feedback Score Of 61512)	Jul-08-11 17:07
	-- (#370525500800)

 

Mods: i don't think it is appropriate to make a judgment like this about a very complex and disconcerting incident by changing the title of the thread. The supportive posts will speak for themselves, as will the less than supportive. The majority of members who lost out on this did not post; it would be wrong to assume they all accepted the seller's explanations. I do agree that "fraud" should be removed, but to call this "resolved" because you, and a very small number of affected members, are convinced by the many explanations and not bothered by the missing ones, well, you get the point.

If you keep this title, I do hope you will not prevent me from creating a new thread with a very carefully worded title that will not accuse, but also will not indicate this issue is "Resolved." If all of my unanswered questions are answered to my satisfaction - and that of other members who have been PM ing me, I promise I will ask you to change the title of my new thread as well.

 

gee and I was disappointed I didn't get in on the deal but I guess it was too good to be true. I ordered an x220 instead, would rather have a z13 but I'm getting a nearly fully loaded x220 minus max ram, ssd for $950.

 

We have to do what we have to do I wish you luck - beware of the issues many have reported about the X220 and do not hesitate to return it if you have a problem.

Personally, I still thing the Z1 series is, overall, more desirable than the X220 unless you need the SB performance. I believe you will find plenty of new or lightly used Z1s for sale over the next 6 months as current owners trade up to the Z2

 

Thanks, I hope I have zero issues but probably will have some and I am fully aware of the problems with the x220 but there are also a lot of people without any issues so we'll see I guess. Plus my quote I got from the $800 amex deals was about to expire (july 14th) and so far all the deals after that particular one weren't nearly as good.

One of the most important features that hooked me were the battery life, which the 9 cell should provide nearly 9 hours and IPS screen, which isn't perfect either but still better than the default crummy screens normally on ultraportables. I used to own an acer aspire 11" but the screen was terrible so I sold it. So hopefully no issues, *crosses* fingers.

 

I presently own one that I am RMA-ing back today, but it is an awesome notebook for an unbelievable price. Good luck.