Looks Like I May Be Swapping My Z90 for the HP 2530p

I've been on the fence for awhile. I love my VGN-Z90NS (weight, form factor, power, RAIDed drives), but the lack of virtualization support (that is, Sony's disabling of the VT-x feature in BIOS/EFI so you can't run 64-bit guests) is starting to cut into what I need to do for my day job.

I've been looking arund for something relatively equivalent and looked at a bunch of options which were close in terms of the spec of the Z as well as size and weight (under 4lbs). For those who care, those are:
Hewlett Packard 2530p
Lenovo Thinkpad X200
Lenovo Thinkpad X200s
Lenovo Thinkpad X301
Toshiba Portege R600

I love the size/weight of the R600, but I've had my share of underpowered notebooks (even though max memory is 5GB, not just 4GB) and it's not as easy to change out the hard drive (technically voids the warranty). I've configured various Lenovos, but I really want the optical drive internal which means the X200 series is out, and I didn't like the overall look of the X301, plus for that, I'd rather get the R600 which is smaller and lighter and better looking. Not all of the Lenovo laptops offer a 9-cell (if I need it; I have one for the Z), and the Toshiba does not. A latecomer to the game was the 2530p, which is under 4lbs, can go up to 8GB of memory (and being PC2-6400, it's cheaper).

I was pricing the 2530p on HP's site and they have a 12% off sale, but I was still looking at about $2k (not including any additional warranty). I saw they had refurbished ones (refub'd doesn't bother me as long as I have a warranty) for under $1400 in most cases. I decided to take the plunge. Here's the specs:
SL9400 1.86GHz
6-cell battery
120GB (5400rpm) 1.8"
2GB RAM
WLAN
Bluetooth
DVD-RW (with Lightscribe)
3 year warranty with accidental damage
... and they threw in a free docking station (which I don't use, but I'll take it)
All for just under $1400.

To spiff it up I ordered 8GB of memory and an Intel X18-M 80GB SSD; I couldn't justify nearly $800 for the 160GB. I'll stick bigger stuff like my VMs on an external drive. So for just about $2200 I will have a laptop that should be speedy enough, have 8GB of memory, SSD, and virtualization. Not too bad.

I'm not selling my Z just yet; I have 10 days after I get the HP to decide if I'm keeping it or not.

If I do wind up selling my Z, it'll be sad because I love the machine but I think at this point I need to choose function over form. Is the HP as nice looking as the Z? No. Will the screen be as good? Probably not. But will it do everything I need it to do? Yes.

 

A computer is supposed to make you more productive and the Z was hindering you from getting your job done. I think it is a good choice that you went with something that will help you bring in the $

 

I see that no Dell's are on the list. May be you don't like Dell's? An E4300 is quite similar to the Z weight wise, the looks are pretty decent as well and the processor is quite decent. I don't know if it allows VT though.

You own an SZ6 i believe? If i am correct in thinking you own an SZ6 what does the HP offer you over the SZ6?

It is a shame that Sony locked the VT. If you go for the HP i hope that you're happy with it.

 

I hate Dells ... every one I've had has been a POS that has died prematurely. It got to the point when a company tried to give me a Dell, I refused and just bought my own. I did look at the E4200 and E4300, but well, I just couldn't go there. The E4200 was too underpowered and I'd rather have the R600.

I have the Z90 as well as the SZ90 (1st gen ... notice a trend? lol), so technically I could hack that BIOS but the SZ is on its last legs and it's not worth fixing at this point. It served me well 3+ years ago.

 

HP 2530 has 2 problems: the 6 cell battery sticks out and the contrast ratio of the display is too low.
http://www.notebookjournal.de/tests/inspection/hp-elitebook-2530p-770

But those two points are not important to everyone.

 

I have the 9 cell on my Z90, so sticking out doesn't bother me at all. I know I'm not getting as good of a screen as the Sony, but hey, I'm trying to be practical here.

It'd be nice if Sony changed their policy on disabling VT-x at some point, but it's not happening with the current line. I wonder if Windows 7 with the XP emulation may force them to.

 

Hm, isnt there a thread here, where people can find out how to enable VT on SZ models? I am sure it can be done the same on Z serie.

 

Two completely different beasts; the Z (along with a lot of other manufacturers besides Sony) uses Insyde H2O EFI, which is not the same as the old style BIOS. No one has been able to crack it. Plenty of threads here on that. It's impossible at the moment but not for the lack of people trying.

The SZ? Yes, do a search. There are a few threads on how to enable VT-x on the SZ.

 

Then why not replace your Z with and SZ?

Gary

 

Er, read up. I own the SZ already. It's on its last legs and it won't support 8gb of memory.

 

Are you sure, that you're looking for a laptop (8GB memory, VT 64-bit client support, under 4lbs, etc.)?

 

You're kidding, right? Look at any of my posts here over the years. The size and my requirements are pretty consistent. If there's any one person who knows what he needs and wants in a laptop, it's me.

Here's my history of the past few years since about 2003: Sony Vaio VGN-U70P, JVC MP-XP741, Sharp MW-70J, Vaio VGN-SZ90, Vaio VGN-G1, Vaio VGN-G2, Vaio VGN-Z90. Note my trent with small, light Japanese laptops (most of which you can customize in Japan with options I can't get here, if the laptop is available here at all). I cannot use anything over 4lbs. The Z finally got the power to size to weight ratio right, but fails miserably on virtualization (which I do a lot). Unless MS decides to make Windows Server 2008 R2 32-bit as well, Sony is out for the forseeable future for me.

 

how about an LG P310? perhaps samsung x360, or dell e6400? i dont know.. i would never go for hp =/ even if it is an elitebook.. good luck with it!

 

The x360 - doesn't support VT. Asked. And it's underpowered - again, I'd go for the x200 or R600 over the x360. The LG isn't out in the USA. Dell? Did you read my post earlier? Besides, the E6400 is too big and large.

 

I have to agree that Sony's decision to disable VT-x is a road block. It is the main reason why I have told two people who admired my Z to not get one, and why I myself regret getting one. I didn't do my homework well enough -- I mistakenly didn't envision that a manufacturer could and would permanently disable VT-x on hardware that supported it.
I'm also not pleased with the display quality -- Sony's bragging about a large colour gamut is kind of pointless when the display has to dither to display the colours because it's only 6-bit, and the vibrance has been exaggerated at the expense of colour correctness.

I love the design and weight, but... It's simply not good enough for the two things I wanted to use it for, namely Adobe Photoshop Lightroom and x86_64 Linux development.
The moment I can afford a replacement, this one will become a hand-me-down to my wife. If she wants it, that is.

 

I know Sony's track record - look at my laptop history! I knew that out of the box VT would be disabled. I also counted on someone figuring out how to unlock it (looks like it won't happen). What I didn't count on was my accelerated need to have 64-bit guests, especially Windows Server 2008 R2 ones.

I've always needed more memory in a laptop and have wanted one with 8GB for years. My bottlenecks with VMs going back to the days when my main machine was a Compaq Armada M700 were disk speed and memory. I was even doing clustering back then with VMs. Now I need four node clusters which even with 4GB of memory is a struggle.

I'll miss the RAIDed drives of my Z if the 2530p works out. And for those questioning HP, this isn't a consumer notebook. The 2530p is one of their business notebooks and it's getting uniformly good reviews and stellar battery life (which thankfully won't be a step down; Sony has always had great battery life).

I'm sure there are more people like me who have loved and used Sony machines for years, but I have just hit the wall with how much I can do with Sony laptops that fit my needs in terms of weight, size, and power requirements. As a consumer notebook, the Z brilliant. As a business notebook for people who need true 64-bit support, Sony gets a big fail.

 

Okay? So get the HP then, what's the big deal? Are you trying to start an argument or something? If the HP fits your precise, specific needs I see no reason not to get it.

 

No, I'm not at all. If you use your laptops since about 2003 and I guess you're a pro (VM 64-bit client, etc.) you did known before buy, that Sony Vaio Z doesn't support VT. Honestly, VM with multiple clients on a 13.inch display is a PITA or delight for masochist. This same for 12inch display and SU9300 on HP 2530.
But if you would enjoy it, why not. Go for HP.

 

Sorry to hear that, FenderP. Do let us know how the HP works out. I think it is useful for other who may have similar need or want as you have.

 

I dont know why but I just shudder from the thought of HP laptops!

 

That was generally the purpose of this thread until it got derailed a bit. I've been struggling for awhile of going away from Sony and finally bit the bullet.

The HP and the SSD show up tomorrow. The memory is already here. I'll put Vista x64 on it for a day, but as soon as Windows 7 is up on TechNet on Thursday, I'll download it and put that on instead; it's been great on my Z for the most part and I'm sure the RC will be better.

If the HP doesn't work, the R600 is up next.

 

Raid? If for speed, can do a (imho) better/faster hybrid 1.8" SSD + 2.5" HDD setup with the 2530P by swapping the 1.8" SATA HDD with a 1.8" X18-M or the latest 1.8" Samsung 220/200 SSD, pulling out the optical drive, making it an e-sata unit (via expressport) and using the $28.50US HP caddy 498455-001 "Optical drive bay insert assembly - Includes additional USB port" from http://partsurfer.hp.com. Get decent amount of storage via the 2.5" HDD and get speed for your OS+Apps from the 1.8" SSD. 2.5" HDD remains in idle standby while not in use, or can be hotswapped even with the optical drive based on "weapon of choice" for that day's tasks.

I have the one-gen older 2510P, similar chassis to 2530P, and it is of a an excellent build quality. The same SSD+HDD config can be done too with it too using aftermarket parts, but using slower PATA 1.8" SSD + 2.5" SATA/PATA limited to ATA-100 speeds instead.

 

Clearly you haven't used the SSD RAID in the Vaio Z series. I ordered the X18-M 80GB (I never intended on keeping the stock drive) but I seriously doubt it's going to be as fast as the RAID Sony put in the Z.

BTW, thanks for the caddy part. HP couldn't find it when I talked to them, and they only seem to have it on the site with the slow 5400 drive for like $180. I got it with the DVD drive as well, but I wanted to swap. I remember doing that with the old Compaq Armada M700 I had years ago.

 

FenderP, I'm also interested in reading your review about your new HP. Congrats on your purchase & good luck.

 

Moved the discussion into a separate thread here.

 

Yeah, that kinda would have been infinitely more.. how should I say this more precisely.. Useful, than the one that you currently started "HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I'M GOING TO BUY X LAPTOP BECAUSE Y LAPTOP DOES NOT HAVE THE GRAPHICS CARD/PROCESSOR/SCREEN SIZE/SOFTWARE I WANT!!!1"

Not surprised though because I think you were the one trying to justify your Lenovo purchase that didn't have a dvd drive, while simultaneously attacking a different laptop because it didn't have a dvd drive ROFL. Relax bro, just chill out and buy what you want. Plenty of reviews for the HP around.

 

Peoples needs can change all the time. If someone buys a notebook a few months down the line they may wish that they could do XYZ on it or they might invison at the time of purchase that they had no desire to X and they would be ok with current specs etc.

It is true if people where intending to use it for those needs they should do their homework in advance but like i wrote above needs can change. It seems to me like FenderP was sharing their exasperation with us which quite a normal thing to do.

Hopefully Sony will take note. Sony don't lock VT on the BZ and they shouldn't do on the Z either. People have come up with a solution for the SR/FW/AW models. It is a shame that nobody has been able to do this for the Z. It is a shame that you have to part with your Z Fender P. I hope that you have good experiences with the HP.

 

It seems to me like he didn't do the necessary research (read: quick forum search using search function) and instead of just returning the item for one that fits his needs, instead we get a pointless, attention seeking thread where the only responses we can actually post is "i'm sorry to hear that man, gl with your purchase."

a review of both would be more infinitely useful as I said, which are easily available anywhere. pointless bantering.

 

Did you have the 128GB MLC x2 or 64GB SLC x 2? 64GB SLC x 2 is my dream option, but I am not even sure the 64GBx2 option that is available now in Z690 or Z91 are still SLC.

 

64GB x 2; got it right when it came out.

 

Considering how many Sony laptops I've owned, I know Sony's MO. markhedder is way wrong here, and I didn't buy a Lenovo. That was my initial frustration with my Z. The difference now is that I have a real world, day job need to use 64-bit guests right now that didn't exist when I got the Z. I've been able to get by on all of my laptops with 32-bit guest VMs all these years and even up until a month or two ago.

What's annoying about the BZ is that it's marketed as a business laptop (as is the Z and the TT to some degree), yet Sony clearly doesn't care to apply the same rules for a business laptop across the board. I don't know many casual home users buying top-of-the-line TTs. Sony knows it's business folks.

Reviews, for the record, rarely (if ever) talk about things like virtualization and BIOS options. For laptops like the x360 and the R600 I had to ask actual owners; sales reps for the companies had no idea.

Unfortunately, I don't think Sony is going to change their stance, and a lot of notebook manufacturers seem to be switching to Insyde H2O. The ironic bit is that it wouldn't cost Sony a dime to unlock the one feature.

I'll post the inevitable comparisons once I configure the HP after I get it.

 

What's your issue? I ordered the Z90 from Japan before any review was released, and the VT feature didn't really matter at that point; no review was necessary. And if you look at my history even around here, I tend to be an early adopter (which means a bit of risk). Sometime you win, sometimes you lose. I've been fairly lucky; the SZ (which I wrote my last book on) and the Z (which I wrote most of the new one on) served me well. As I said, my needs changed greatly since I got the Z, and they really changed recently.

 

rachuk, I do agree with your opinion to some extent.

A good example would be me. I did my homework before buying my laptops but does that matter? I'm the kind of guy who is very indecisive (Yeah, I know I sucked & it probably also explains why I've never had a single girlfriend all my life). Just take this year for example. I bought a Vaio Z after deciding that this will be the "perfect" laptop for me in terms of want & needs. Then a few weeks later, I decided that I should sell it & buy a MacBook, which I did. Now for the past 2 weeks or so, I'm thinking of selling my MacBook to buy another Vaio Z. So even if I had done this, will I be happy? I think this could just go on & on....

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes it is not a matter of not doing homework on laptops before buying but that things, opinions, likes, needs, etc. can change "easily" down the line.

 

SPEEDwithJJ is spot on, but mine was somewhere I knew I needed to eventually go; that eventuality hit sooner than expected.

Hey, I saw on Sony Insider that Sony is considering making another thin-and-light a la the X505. I shouldn't want it since I know it won't meet my needs, but yet I'm going to keep my eye on those developments

FedEx delivered the HP today; I'm just waiting for the X18-M to be delivered. Not posting any major impressions and comparisons until I really configure it and start to use it, but the screen is definitely nowhere near as good as the Z. I'll have to compare it to the G and see if it's more akin to that. I bet it is.

 

IMO, it is still too early to say no to the "possible" new thin & light. Who knows? If Sony really make one in the future, that notebook may have specifications that meet your needs.

 

This thread went onto to discuss about why would someone purchase a laptop that did not have VT enabled. What i wrote was only really relevant to that and not so much about peoples likes or opinions.
The other issues you mentioned are very valid and i don't disagree with them.

 

Agreed & I fully understand what you mean.

To add on to the original theme of the thread (which for most part he had already mentioned in this thread), I believe that FenderP is one of the first member in this forum to buy a Vaio Z. Of course, we all know that Sony locks the VT function of the Vaio notebooks. However, the key in this case is that there are ways to "hack" the BIOS to enable in the Vaio SZ. Since FenderP is one of the first to buy the Vaio Z last year, he was probably hoping that the Vaio Z's BIOS could also be "hacked" to enable the VT functionality. The unfortunate thing is that Sony chose to use a different BIOS from a different vendor. Back then, who would have thought that till now, there wasn't any "hacks" available yet (if it ever will have) for the Vaio Z BIOS to enable the VT function?

 

i'm currently still using my z540.. but for a period of time i used a 2710P .. since i'm a student it a great tablet to have and all, but it incredibly slow thanks to the ulv cpu and the crappy hd .. x.x battery life is great though

 

My G2 is the ULV (the SU9300 1.2 GHz). That is definitely slower than the Z for sure (actually, the G1, U70P, and the JVC MP-XP741 also had ULV processors) and laggy. The 2530p I got has the SL9400, which is the 1.86 which is a different chip line than the SU ULV. If I got the 2530p with a lower clocked SU chip, I'd wholeheartedly agree that I won't get much better performance from my G. With the SL, I bet it'll get somewhere between the Z and the G.

 

Windows Experience Scores:

Vaio VGN-Z90NS (Windows 7 with Build 7000 x64)
Processor 6.1 (P8600 2.53 GHz)
Memory 5.9 (4GB PC3-8500 1066 MHz)
Graphics 4.4 (Speed, not Stamina)
Gaming Graphics 4.4
Primary Hard Disk 7.0 (RAID 2 x 64GB)

HP 2530p (Windows 7 RC x64)
Processor: 5.3 (SL9400 1.86 GHz)
Memory: 5.7 (8GB PC2-6400 800 MHz)
Graphics: 3.8
Gaming Graphics: 4.9
Primary Hard Disk: 7.8 (!!!! - a shocker; maybe the X18-M is better than the RAID ...)

Vaio VGN-G2AANS (Windows Vista Business SP1 32-bit)
Processor: 4.4 (U7600 1.2 GHz)
Memory: 4.2 (2GB DDR2 533 MHz)
Graphics: 2.1 (Intel 950)
Gaming Graphics: 2.8
Primary Hard Disk: 5.3 (64GB SSD 1st or second gen)

 

Wow the Z seems pretty fast.

 

I'll be less graceful than you and say that most reviews are useless. The reviewers "compete" with each other, and take great care to list the exact same things as their peers, but not anything else. My guess is that daring to be different is a gamble, and their advertisers don't like gambles.
So you get speed benchmarks, display contrast, battery life with a new battery, idle temperatures and a few pictures. Nothing else.

If, instead of all the reviewers competing against the perceived "mainstream" market, some of them would branch out and review for "niche" markets, I think it would benefit not only the prospective buyers, but also the reviewers themselves. What value is it to write the exact same thing that seven other sites write?

Some niche review sites I would love to see:

- Multi-OS reviews. Laptops are tested against the top linux distros, as well as multi-boot and virtualization.

- Globetrotter reviews. Laptops are tested for travel purposes. What is the geographical (and not head count) WWAN coverage? Will WiFi still work if travelling to somewhere where channel 14 is used? Does it fit a standard plane seat tray? Is it sturdy enough to survive travel?

- Photographer reviews. How well does it work with Photoshop and Lightroom, and screen calibration software? What's the colour correctness like? Are card readers, USB and Firewire read speeds and HD write speeds good? How big screen resolution can you get on an external monitor?

By all means, keep mainstream reviews too, but I think some of the reviewers should start writing for other markets. Cause at present, none do.
(There are individuals who will "review" a machine they have bought, but as they don't compare it to anything else on the market, it's not very useful.)

 

I don't disagree with you. I'll promise you this: once I've gotten some sea legs under me with the 2530p, I'll do a comparison with the various Sony ones under real world-type situations as best I can.

 

That's why you read user reviews around the forum. I think that's what people talk about when they say reviews, not just the mainstream. Everyone knows this.

Even then, most of what you mentioned is fluff that 99.99% of the people don't care about like globetrotter review? And if the 0.01% did care about it, they'd ask on the forums for opinions! That's why it's so important to research your product before you buy it! I can't stress it enough. If the question you are seeking wasn't asked before, it's probably because no one cared enough to ask. If you are a part of what you call, a niche market, a simple review from one person like in this thread WON'T help you, no matter how good his intentions are. You should visit the HP forums and get the intricate details of it from several users. My 2c.

 

I have read user report that the X18/X25 performs similarly to Z's SLC RAID, so there are probably areas that X18/X25 can score high points and other areas that the RAID would stand out. Look forward to see your personal take on the two.

 

BTW, looks like the grand experiment may be coming to an end with the HP. Not only was it defective out of the box, but after sending it in for repair it got worse, not better. It's a shame because it would have been a decent computer I think. I've started the RMA process which will take a few days since I registered the extended warranty.

Some thoughts about the HP vs. both the Sony Z and G:
1. Screen quality is no comparison. Both Sony computers win hands down.
2. The keyboard for the HP was just, er, odd. I'm used to smaller keyboards, but the spacing and how it was laid out was just not easy to type on.
3. Battery life really was good on the HP.
4. Although it was 12.1", the HP really does feel heavier and bit more unwieldy than the Z.
5. VMware ran well under the HP with 64-bit guests. Sigh.
6. I did like the little light that you cold turn on at the top of the HP screen for illuminating the keyboard in the dark.
7. Believe it or not, the HP isn't a bad looking computer. The 2530p is no Z or Apple, but it's not fugly like the IBMs.
8. I like the Intel SSD. Capacity is not great, but speed is wonderful I didn't think a single drive could be as quick in operation as the Z's RAID. Kudos to Intel on that one.
9. HP supported Windows 7 now, and all of the crucial drivers worked (unlike the Vaios).
10. The touchpad on the Z is better. The HP uses the Synaptics (which Sony used to use, and was in the U series, etc.). For example, on the Alps in the Z, you can swipe left or right and move back/forward in a Web browser. The Synaptics didn't have that.
11. More on ergonomics - the touchpad was too small and the little pointer was too big and flat. Neither really worked for me.
12. I don't like how HP put the main memory module under the keyboard (you can clearly tell the Compaq lineage on that - it's how the old Armadas used to be). They should have stuck both memory modules on the bottom.
13. Outside of the one memory module, everything is easy to get at (HDD, WWAN, WAN, HDD, etc.) unlike the Z or G.

I did place an order for the Toshiba R600-S4203 (the new one with the 512GB SSD). They're going to be coming into the US in small numbers, and the first batch is almost spoken for. Hopefully that one will work out. I have until it ships to cancel it.

 

Hm..so actually Intel's SSD is faster then RAID 0 inside the Z? Is sony planning to upgrade their SSDs to Intel?

Because RAID0 and X-25 would clearly be freaking fast?

 

I wouldn't necessarily say faster, but equivalent. In real world usage, I really didn't notice the difference in usage which is pretty impressive considering the 2530p had the lower voltage 1.86GHz processor.

But yes, a RAIDed set of Intel drives would be blazingly fast.

 

Windows Experience Index is a very limited benchmark.

I personally do not attach any value to it's results, especially the hard drive test.

 

I tend to agree. How it works in the real world is more appropriate along with some of the standard HDD/SSD tests which measure reads and writes.