New Z model with Intel Core i5 CPU

With RAID you combine interfaces... I don't know which model they reviewed, but the maximum on the Z depending on SSD configuration would be between 2 to 4 times what SATA 2.0 is capable of.

 

yes but I am talking about a single SSD configuration 256GB x 1, which is TRIM supported by WIN 7 and is exactly what I was told they're trying to implement if one opts for that selection

Try the number I posted for technical, it doesn't take long to get through

1-888-289-7669

 

On the U.S. CTO page - you can order a 128GB x 1 or a 256GB x 1 SSD

 

Yes, but those are still dual SSDs - note the listing for "with RAID 0 technology". Remember, two slots combine on the Z to offer "quad SSD RAID 0", which is described on the CTO page as "256gb x 2". This was all covered in the promotional videos.

I posted how the variouos combinations were made up earlier:

128gb = 2 logical/1 physical, (64gb + 64gb)
192gb = 3 logical/2 physical, (64gb + 64gb) + 64gb
256gb = 2 logical/1 physical, (128gb + 128gb)
384gb = 3 logical/2 physical, (128gb + 128gb) + 128gb
512gb = 4 logical/2 physical, (128gb + 128gb) + (128gb + 128gb)

 

¿?¿? What is this??

http://www.mcs-n.com/portatiles_sony_vaio/p4296.html

Maybe an error?

 

I hear you - as I said the U.S. said it's not going to happen, so that indeed supports what you are saying - but I took it as being a single drive and made the call

Canada says they are trying to have a modification made that will allow TRIM to function with a single SSD - I was very specific in my line of questioning - if I see RAID 0 in early March on Canada CTO - I guess that will be the end of the matter

Maybe someone else can see if they get the same answer as I did... 1-888-289-7669

 

Ugh... Sony's decision to use crappy SSDs and make them mandatory has killed the massive boner I had for this computer....

 

I'm somewhat surprised that Canada would attempt to forgo - and moreso that Japan would allow them to - one of the big new Z selling features, quad RAID 0. Even if trim support would be considered more technically desirable, it's certainly not as marketable.

 

did you see the performance this Raid array is putting out? show me a computer HDD setup with better performance and I'll eat my lunch.

 

Seems to be a few?

* HDD model but still includes DVD drive.
* Includes firewire port
* No Nvidia graphics
* Has standard modem
* Only 2 USB ports

 

They're not trying to forgo quad - he just said if someone wants to select a single drive, Sony Canada wants to be able to support TRIM - since CTO's are not returnable in Canada except for warranty purposes - if you configure with a single SSD that supported TRIM - you would probably receive a machine with a standard controller? The words he used though was a modification to the motherboard.

You could still CTO a quad SSD.

1-888-289-7669

 

It's supposed to be the S11E7E/B.
So the first letter of the model number, the screen size and the picture are the mistakes
But it's a good way to advertise a webshop

 

Well, I guess - they'd have to come up with some custom SSD drives as well. So far the only sign of single ones I've seen in the new form factor are the 64gb and 128gb used to fill in the 192gb and 384gb models.

Also there really isn't a custom controller going on here - Sony is just making use of the standard Intel RAID functions. If there's a custom connector for the SSD drives, I suspect it's just a 2-in-1 connector for dual SATA channels. So if they can find a single SSD to physically fit, it should work without any other changes... unless Japan has customized the BIOS to only work with RAID 0 or some such nonsense.

 

Arghhhh The only model in Portugal is 2500€!!

 

I believe 'crappy' in this case means 'not affordable'.

I'm personally really surprised they've dropped yet another 90 grams. I'm resigned to breaking my 'no Sony' policy of last year - this is an immensely compelling machine, not just in the SSD arrangement (which I'm actually sure won't make a huge difference to a decent 'normal' SSD in real life). Let's hope I don't end up with a lemon

 

Well - you seem to know what's going on internally a lot better than I do but maybe the Mod he was talking about just means the option to order a single SSD with TRIM support without the ability to Quad in the future. I don't know - but I can wait 3 more weeks to find out - I just hope the reduced price Z790 will still be available if not!

 

Okay, so I'm new to SSDs. But if one has good knowledge of computers, and were to go in and disable RAID, repartition, reformat, and reinstall windows, would TRIM then work?

I'd rather have TRIM than RAID. I simply can't see dealing with re-imaging my computer every few weeks. And the size of SSD drives all but guarantees in most cases they will be running near capacity.

This may be a deal breaker for me I guess?

 

Lol great picture!

I agree, the sequential transfer speeds are absolutely disgusting (in a good way). However, there is a lot more to consider when picking an SSD. Unless you do tons of HD video editing and constantly transfer huge files, the sequential read/write speeds are not all that important. The vast majority of "normal" usage is smaller 4k writes. As you can see from the posted benchmark, the 4k write speed of Sony's quad SSD is several times slower than a single Intel SSD. Also, the lack of TRIM is a bigger deal than you might realize. That amazing performance you speak of will degrade like crazy over time, unless the drive can clean itself. So, even if you might disagree, I stand by my statement.

 

That's exactly what I prefer too - my understanding is that currently - TRIM only works when a single SSD is being controlled. USA Sony says there will be no TRIM support.

When I asked about it at Sony Canada tech - I was told they're looking into having TRIM support available on a single SSD option if some kind of Mod can be made but that there would be no answer to that until the 1st week of March. I would hope they wouldn't just say that unless there was an actual possibilty of that happening... 1-888-289-7669

 

This is interesting. In order for TRIM to work, there has to be support at the drive, the controller, and the OS levels. Windows 7 has support.

Thus, I have to think that either the SSD is being updated to include TRIM support (Samsung SSDs did not support TRIM last year, but were supposed to have support added later), or the controller is being changed to one that supports TRIM, or a combination of the two.

If it's the SSD, then it's conceivable that SSDs without TRIM support do not have upgradeable firmware. I believe Samsung SSDs (last year) had no TRIM support, and there was not way to upgrade their firmware to support TRIM either.

If it's the controller, the motherboard change must be to swap out the RAID controller to a non-RAID controller. In this case, Sony is assuming that Intel will not have TRIM support in their controller driver any time soon. Or that Sony has some proprietary controller handling the RAID duties, or sitting between the Intel controller and the drive. Who knows?

It's fascinating watching all this unfold. I wish there was a fast-forward button, though

-Peter

 

Are you sure about that? I thought TRIM worked so long as the disks were discrete volumes. That is, say you have 2x64GB. If you do RAID 0, the OS sees one 128GB drive and TRIM controls can't be passed to the individual drives. I think, though, if you don't use RAID, the OS sees two separate 64GB drives (eg, a C: and D , and TRIM commands can be passed on to each individual drive. I am speaking generally of course not of the Z specifically.

Ah well, wait and see approach. I guess we'll know more once more reviews come out and the machines are officially released. I really hope they address this, because this machine is pretty much PERFECT for me otherwise. In my opinion if they don't it's a very dumb move by Sony. The VAST majority, and by that I mean about 99.5%, of users are NOT going to know how or have any interest in re-imaging their machines every few months. In my view, a TRIM supporting setup should be standard and the RAID 0 config should be an option, for those who know what they are getting into.

 

When is the Vaio Z available in Canada???

 

Good speculation, but you're forgetting one vital thing: This is Sony we're talking about. They don't do updates - especially those which add function.

 

Yes, they do. As long as they receive enough bad press and their customers complain loud enough.

2 easy cases come to mind:

a) In their A700 dSLR camera, they upgraded the firmware (especially Ver.4), which dramatically changed the entire imaging performance, radically, for the better. Dpreview, who typically never re-does a full product review, felt that the changes via the firmware upgrade merited a re-review - it was that radical.

b) In their vehicle NAV systems, after receiving a lot of complaints on the algorithms used for route computations and the glacial pace of re-computations when a re-routing was needed, they introduced a firmware upgrade (actually right before the re-designed models hit the retail shelves) that essentially wiped out every single customer complaint and added some very slick new functionality (also present in the new models that hit the shelves at that time). In fact, the people who were buying the new models wondered if they were doing the right thing by paying more for functionality that was now identical to the prior, out-going model !

Yes, Sony does move. As long as they get the loud and clear message that a change is warranted.

 

funny you should mention lemons while quoting me.

the AW in my sig....I just got refunded the full purchase price from Sony after 5 separate repair attempts only created a new problem each time.

the check was processed about 4 weeks ago. I should have it in the mail this week or next. loved the laptop. until it had problems. then it snow-balled on me. I'd like to believe my issues were unique to my AW...but I'm sure that everyone who bought a black AW will encounter at least one of the issues I had eventually.

unfortunate. but I respect Sony for giving me a full refund (after I demanded they do so). they could have still just said, "sorry, we can only repair it..." that respect keeps me coming back to the Sony forum to provide support to users who have them. and if I had use for a 13.1", 1080p screen...this would be the only thing I'd consider buying with my $2800 reimbursement check. alas, the lowest I'll go is 16".

 

interesting. I didn't know TRIM was that important. But I still think Sony will do something about that if it really is an issue for users. Either that, or in their testing, it hasn't shown the kind of degradation we're speculating about. regardless, if it can go 6 months in between imaging...who cares? like I said, the process of dumping the raid array and rebuilding it takes all of about 45 seconds (literally). actually, 45 seconds is a bit of an exaggeration. dropping the image back on the computer...given the speed of these hdds...would probably take only 20 minutes...even if it's full of 200+ GB of data.

this is the kind of speed we literally won't see out of a single *affordable* SSD of this size until 2011-2012. 400MB-600MB performance? you're damn right I'd be happy to re-image every so often. We're talking about Photosho literally opening up *instantly*. you could open 10 word documents and they'd all be on the screen in under a second. we could open Firefox with 20 tabs, Adobe Premiere, a copy of OSX in a VMWare window, and ________ ______________ (fill in 2 or 3 other apps that take awhile to open) and they'd all be open in under 3 or 4 seconds.

gentlmen, this is performance that won't be "standard" for 5 more years. if then.

the only question is how long 256GB will be enough storage space. If you don't get heavy into music and videos (or if you keep most of that stuff on a small USB HDD), this machine will beat out most computers for a long, long time.

 

Do we know what KIND of SSDs Sony is using, and their controller? It is possible they don't even SUPPORT TRIM. If they don't support it at all, dumping the RAID array and formatting will NOT fix the problem. My buddy has an old non-TRIM SSD, and has found it is impossible to restore the drive's speed. It MAY be possible if you do a "secure erase" (that is, zero the drive), and Intel makes a utility to do that, but that may not work on all drives.

My point is that if Sony has gone with cheap SSDs, TRIM may not even be supported at the drive level.

Do note however that even a "fully degraded" SSD is still likely quicker than an HDD - it's just not as quick as it should be.

 

Say, all this controversy has a couple thoughts brewing in my mind... Does anyone know good Sony is on returns?

When I ordered my custom HP Envy (1st edition), I found a number of problems including a non ACPI compliant BIOS and some issues in the hardware I just didn't like. HP was willing to take it back within 21 days, with no Restocking fees! What is Sony's USA laptop return policy on CTO orders? I don't want to lose 15% of my total on these high end laptops if it doesn't meet my standards or satisfaction.

 

I just placed an order for the new Z. I decided to go with a "256GB (256GBx1) Solid State Drive with RAID 0", mostly because I don't need more hard drive space. Does this mean I don't get "quad raid" speed because I'm only have a single SSD? Did I make a mistake? Should I cancel and reorder?

I'm also a bit confused on how you can have "quad raid" when you only have two SSD devices? And how is my machine "RAID 0" when I only have a single device?

I'm a bit suspicious of using raid 0 on an SSD array for general purpose computing. I'm under the impression that continuous numbers of small writes to an SSD slows it down, and by construction if you are using RAID 0 your writes to each drive will be half the size (since you write half the data to each drive). Am I missing something?

Here's the rest of my purchase. Comments appreciated:

• US-VPCZ1190X-LBOM
• 8GB (4GBx2) DDR3-SDRAM-1066
• Fresh Start
• Intel® Core™ i7-620M processor (2.66GHz) with Turbo Boost up to 3.33GHz
• Blu-ray Disc™ Player/Burner
• Large Capacity Battery
• Silver
• Genuine Windows® 7 Professional 64-bit
• 256GB (256GBx1) Solid State Drive with RAID 0 Technology
• Per Unit Price: $3,399.99

 

What do you plan to your machine for?

 

Gee, it really seems that no one reads these threads before posting. I've posted in this thread twice - and in fact once already TODAY - how the various SSD drive options are comprised (although the caveat is since no one has received their notebooks yet, no one knows EXACTLY for sure).

With the 256gb option you will be getting one physical drive, which is composed of two logical drives. So you will be getting a 2-drive RAID 0. The only way to get the advertised quad RAID 0 appears to be with the 512gb option. All others are dual or triple.

 

In HK the 256GB ssd is quad raid

http://www.sonystyle.com.hk/ss/product/vaio/vpcz117gg_e.jsp

Hard Disc Drive 256GB*4 (64GB x 4, Serial ATA, RAID 0 support*5)

 

That sounds very much like what I would have expected Sony USA to do - offer 256gb made up of 128gb x 2, which would result in 64gb x 4. However they're only offering 256gb x 1 via CTO, which only makes sense as being made up of 128gb x 2.

Although there is an extremely slim chance they could have fit 64gb x 4 into a single 256gb SSD, but it doesn't really seem likely since the videos have specifically talked about two drives in 1, not 4 in 1.

 

You still aren't *quite* getting it. If the benchmarks we have are true, that kind of power does already exist for the everyday tasks you mentioned. Like I stated previously, stuff like opening programs and OS operations are mostly comprised of small read/writes. As such, a single Intel SSD (160 GB) is already a good deal faster than the Sony at these sort of tasks.

 

sort of.

that's the point. the best are maxing out at 250MB/s read / 200MB/s write.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1022/9/

this, by raid setup in the Z is maxing out at 600MB/s read /400MB/s write.


there are applications for which the increased write speed is advantageous. whether you see that or not affects me...none.

 

IMHO, Vogelbung is not totally wrong.

Look at what happened to the Nvidia 9300 (Intel Integrated Graphics) Hybrid drivers on the current (old) Vaio Z series. What kind of update did Sony provide? Furthermore, has anyone heard of any SSD firmware upgrade for the current (old) Vaio Z series?

 

Sorry, I did see your post but it didn't sink in. It's not very intuitive that splitting a phyical drive into two logical drives then running raid on these two logical drives would increase throughput to the physcial drive. Obviously that wouldn't work with a standard SSD.

Photoshop, Web-browsing, viewing HD content (on-line and blue-ray) and a host of random little things.

 

I will say that Sony is being less than clear on how the quad SSD works or even what's involved in getting it, but then again I don't even see it mentioned on sonystyle.com in the first place...

 

Actually, my understanding is that there are two physical drives on a single card so that you really have one logical drive as two physical drives in RAID0. The x1 means one card, which equates to 2 drives.

-Peter

 

I've been burned by Sony as much as the next guy (in particular, their love of proprietary formats: mini disc, UMD, memory stick...). But your argument doesn't hold that much water.

Regarding the hybrid drivers, my understanding is that Sony did provide updated drivers along with an updated BIOS to support them. See the first post in this thread.

And regarding an SSD firmware update, this isn't something Sony would provide - it's something the SSD manufacturer (Samsung) would provide. Check out this page from an AnandTech article on SSDs. Here's a salient quote:

-Peter

 

Do you think the average Joe, who decides to buy this Z, will have any idea of having to re-image the HD every few weeks?

Exactly. The average person is not going to know of this. SSD's will be seen, by the average consumer, as an improvement or replacement to spinning HD's and will treat them in the same fashion.

 

Page 1 of the owners manual should thank you for buying a Sony VAIO and then pages 2 through 50 should explain all about SSD's and the care it takes for keeping them at their optimal speed. Then 51 through whatever covering the rest. Because average Joe or Jane is going to wonder why their Z has slowed down and Sony support will be getting many phone calls. Oh wait, too late. I already read the owners manual. No such luck. I'd hate to be average Joe.

 

Now that we are talking about drivers, I was wondering will we be able to use drivers from Nvidia.com? I like keeping my nvidia drivers as up to date as possible because it actually makes a pretty big difference in performance for new games. A question for Old Vaio Z owners, did you guys have to wait for Sony to write their own custom drivers or did you just download them from Nvidia.com or Laptop2Video.com?

Thanks,
Kevin

 

Judging by description of automatic mode behavior in the manual it's not new Nvidia Optimus technology.

This probably means Sony, as it was for old z, have some proprietary drivers and will update them only when new OS is released. If this is the case, don't expect to see those drivers on Nvidia site.

Somebody will need to play with inf file and drivers repacking in order to keep Nvidia drivers up to date.

You can read all on hybrid solution in the old z on this topic:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=342947

It will be interesting to see if we can install optimus drivers without Sony blessing

 

1000 mb/sec read/write PCI express HDD like OCZ drive/Photofast don't beat the Intel G2 for loading cysis, booting the system etc.
I think in the review they only said it was good for HDD benchmarking...
IO Fusion in the other hand is amazing...So it'a matter of random read/write I think. Not saying I don't want to see my new Z loading stuff instantly ...

 

So Sony isn't using Intel then. What are they using? OCZ? Wait, let me guess...craptastic Samsung drives? I think I might prefer a really good 7200 RPM HDD to that junk.

 

No need to guess - they are modified Samsung drives, model# MMCRE28GQDXP-MVB

It's hard to say how well they might perform compared to their previous offerings, however. SSDs are a very new industry, so changes/improvements can occur very rapidly.

-Peter

 

[/IMG]

I am trying to insert a few images from Adamo's samsung ssd drive. Isn't the setup similar to our Z? Lenovo uses similar set up in their X301 line? Not sure if either had slowing down problems after use. Can't see the end controllers in the pics but hope sony uses Intel on Z.

 

Hey, great images. The drive is different. The model # on the Adamo is:

MMCQE28GTMUP-MVA

The Z's is

MMCRE28GQDXP-MVB

Anyone know how to interpret Samsung model numbers?

Also, noted that the date on the Adamo drive is March 8, 2009 (or Aug 3, 2009?). Looks like an older Samsung drive for sure.

-Peter

 

A quick google search came up with this thread

Samsung's response to the same drive as in the Adamo:

This was posted in January of this year, so hopefully the site is up (or will be) that will show which drives can support the TRIM-enabled firmware.

-Peter