New Z model with Intel Core i5 CPU

What I described also works with pure deletes, though. Let's say the OS says to write to some pages in a block. To the SSD controller, those pages are either new or have been written to already. If the latter, the SSD controller nows that those pages have been deleted at some point before and could be freed. So it takes the rest of the pages in that block, combine it with the data it was told to write, allocates a new block in the spare region of the drive and writes the block. The old block can now be marked to be reclaimed. Then, later, the old block can be actually erased and added to the spare region. There is still write amplification going on when writing these new pages but not much worse than normal write amplification that may occur even when the drive has spare blocks to write to. By having the spare region, the SSD can keep allocating new blocks and writing this way, and only worry about freeing up blocks later. And since blocks are always freed, there is no loss of spare blocks.

 

The HDD version does indeed replace the optical drive. And the space it would free up is not big enough to fit a 1.8/2.5inch drive in, as far as i know.

Although it maybe will be possible the other way around. You buy the 128gb SSD version and you replace the optical drive with an HDD, but don't think that's really that handy.

I myself will buy the HDD version, just because i don't like the ''SSD degradation'' over the years, and i think it's about sure you can't turn RAID0 off.
Since my guess is the SSD drives are connection to eachother in RAID and then connected to a single port (of something like that). A Sony ''costumised'' feature i guess.

 

I see a couple issues. First, with wear-leveling algorithms, when a file is deleted, those blocks may not be written to until after many (all?) other bytes have been written to. Essentially, this means that you will run out of spare blocks given enough deletes.

The second issue is that you need to assume you have a large enough spare region to accomodate new writes - this may not always be the case.

I'm commenting now all in theory, so I could be way off. But it strikes me that if a GC-based algorithm could have been created that would fix degradation issues without need for execution of explicit TRIM commands, it probably would have been by now.

-Peter

 

And what are the steps to configure SSD to JBOD? Another thing to have to do. These SSD's, are they made in Germany? I'm sure their economy thrives on maintenance alone.

Then, why would Sony even support these types of SSD's on their notebooks in the first place, which I'm certain they're aware of these degradation issues. It's like Sony is passing the buck to the consumer and have them deal with it.

3 more weeks, and the answers to these concerns will be addressed.

 

It's usually done in BIOS, before booting into Windows. It's a one time thing, though, so not a big maintenance issue.

Lots of good reasons for moving to SSDs - no moving parts (great for mobile platforms), fast reads, fast sequential writes. I think SSDs are the future, it's just still a young industry at the moment.

Can't wait for complete hands-on reviews either!

-Peter

 

I think you'll regret the 1920x1080 screen for general business use. I had that resolution on a bit larger screen and returned it b/c the default settings were uncomfortable for general reading and it was a hassle always making other tweaks (albeit that was with XP and w/o the DPI adjustments that are available w/ W7). In any event, you'll never notice the difference b/t 1920x1080 and 1600x900 watching HD content/Blu-ray movies on that small a screen, and the 1600x900 resolution outputs to Full HD (1080p) if you connect to your TV via HDMI (assuming you have a 1080p TV). I think the benefits of the 1600x900 screen far outweigh any perceived disadvantages for general business uses (and for gaming, the lower resolution will be better, too).

 

I would suspect though that the HDD would be standard sized in the optical drive bay and could be replaced by a standard size SSD that supports TRIM. This would be my preferred option. Don't think HDD is an option in the USA though is it?

 

I wouldn't go crazy trying to replace the SSD's just yet the performance is amazing with the quad ssd setup and everything you read here is speculation. Noone truly knows the inner workings of the new Z yet and in all likelyhood 95% of users would still not see the degradation for a year or more even without trim. In which case it doesn't take very long at all to image and wipe the array then restore to new performance.

It just seems rather counterintuitive to go about replacing the SSD's in this thing as it's one of the main selling points. In all likelyhood there will be some form of garbage collection that works with the drives. Samsung and Sony made these drives specifically for this computer they are raid drives two drives on one card designed to be run in raid. It's not like their production drives that are sold as standard ssd not intended to be used in raid so i'm sure they have some form of GC because as far as I know every drive in production nowadays comes with some form of GC and it's highly unlikely Samsung would build a drive nowadays without it.

I suggest everyone take a deep breath and wait a couple more weeks to see what's up before going off the deep end here

Cheers

 

Does anyone feel like Sony is trying to pull a fast one over us with this Raid 0 ssd?

I mean we all know that larger capacity single ssd cost more than 2 smaller ssd that add up to the same capacity as the single larger one

looks like Sony has decided to use smaller cheaper ssd and raid 0 them to add up to larger capacity, sure there is a speed gain, but at much greater data loss %

then they charge us more than what a single ssd of that same size would cost

I smell smoke and mirrors...

honestly I would like just 1 single non raid ssd 256gb with trim support

 

The conspiracy theories are getting pretty crazy LOL It is not 1 smaller SSD as if you we're to purchase them off the market. It is 2 smaller SSD's built onto a single pcb specifically for this computer to keep the size/weight down. Quad SSD in a laptop is a first ever and quite remarkable feat I would gladly pay some extra pennies for it no smoke and mirrors neccesary.

See this video to get a better understanding the SSD stuff is around 1:50 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOd8hbYf0E

 

Talking about i5-540M vs i7-620M ?

The more power chip will be justiffied by more power consumption ?

 

So, I suppose that the less power Z (and 1/2 price) will be great for bussiness. I was looking for the most expensive Z, but I´m feeling that I will lose money on that.

Any different feeling ?

 

Yes, what arth1 compared may be different issues/things but the thing is that if Sony can "heck care" for so long on not enabling VT even though the systems in question support VT, what are the odds of Sony doing a similar thing to enabling "TRIM" further down the road?

 

Since you're only planning to be using your Vaio Z notebook mainly on stuff like MS Word, Excel, & email but not on games & video encoding, the base (cheapest) Vaio Z model will be more than enough for your needs. IMHO, I'll suggest that you get the base Vaio Z instead of the top-end (that $4,000+ "Glossy Premium Carbon") model because for your uses, that is simply "over-kill." I'll also suggest that with the savings you made in getting the base model over the top-end model, keep the difference on one side & 2-3 years down the road, use that money to get yourself the latest Vaio Z successor. I'm sure that you'll find that this will be the "best" decision you've ever made.

Of course, those are just my reasoning & ultimately, it is still your own decision on what you want to buy. Good luck.

 

Not always, to be honest.

--------------------------

Looking at the specs of the new Z-series, I've noticed that 2 models offered for Europe feature 2 different new Core processors:
Core i5-520M and Core i7-620M
Tried to note the difference between them , except the frequency, but was unsuccessful. So what's is the difference between 2-cored i5 and i7 ?

 

Yes, very good question. Can anyone with a RAID Vaio Z (or other model) comment on this? We'd have at least some user opinions/facts instead of speculating.

 

Great. My last question is about i5-540M vs i7-620M. I believe that i5 will save more power and the performance will not be so hugh. That´s it ?

 

regardless the components are cheaper because they are essentially using 2 smaller ssd to make 1 large capacity ssd (but all info is split between the 2 ssd or 4 ssd or whatever)

bottom line is they are using small capacity ssd and linking them together much like people do with SD cards to make a larger single flash drive

it's cheaper for sony to do this yet they are charging a huge premium under the guise of speedier performance which may be true but they have said nothing about reliability, maintenance, and lack of TRIM

 

IMHO, I think you're fine with the Intel i5-540M CPU based on your uses. I would say that there is just going to be a "slight" speed difference between those 2 CPUs. Furthermore, you'll only really see this difference when both are running CPU intensive tasks, which in your case, you do not.

 

You may have a point but the thing is that when you're buying Sony's "flagship" notebook such as the Vaio Z series, isn't it already "overpriced" in the first place?

 

The following is what I was talking about:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=319474&highlight=rebate

It'll be cool if Sony runs a similar promotion again.

 

If we already bought it, would such a deal still apply if they were to do it again? Or last time did it only work starting when the promotion appeared?

 

Not really mate, it's much cheaper to mass produce products that sell in greater quantities because they need less cost to profit margin to make up for the expense of the manufacturing. Comparing mass produced SSD drives to a one off version for this notebook is just not a valid comparison IMO. Regardless though, if your a bargain shopper you probably shouldn't be looking at a Sony Z anyways

 

you are missing the point

it is not whether i am a bargain shopper, it is that Sony is trying to pull a fast one with a little misdirection.

faster drives = higher premium... i would agree with all other things being equal, but when maintenance and reliability suffer then i don't agree

i was thinking sony decided to use cheaper components and put a nice coat of paint on it (ie faster performance) and sell it for a premium while a few months down the line the buyer might suffer...

i just don't think they should be charging a premium for what they did

i already ordered mine as 256gb x 1 but apparently that doesnt mean i get a single drive

 

What is your basis for your repeated claim that the drives are made specifically for the Z?

I can buy that the bracket is custom, but SSD drives are commodity products, and so are sandwiched drives. OCZ has done this for a long time for their cheap Apex drives, precisely because two small drives cost less than one big one. I'd be surprised if Samsung hasn't done this before too (Edit: They have. The OCZ Apex was really a dual Samsung with a JMicron JMB-390/391/392 stripe controller), so please provide a reference for the claim that these drives were developed specifically for the Z.

 

Hi my friend. One more please.

There a a lot of doubts about Raid 0 4xSSD.

1 SSD 256 will be 4XSSD ? Or I need another SSD configuration !

Appreciate your last comment.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOd8hbYf0E

 

Well if you can afford the Z not worth worrying about a few pennies over the price of the drives. Actually the price is pretty cheap with current drive prices if you look at it so i'm not sure you have a point at all really.

The 512gb which is 4 x 128gb Samsung = 1000 bucks on the Sony site: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs...52921666065650&categoryId=8198552921644702498
the 128gb drives on Newegg are roughly between 300-400 dollars being generous to your cause so figure 4 x128gb drive @ 350 bucks each = 1400 dollars and Sony is only charging you 1000 bucks seems like a bargain to me, where is the "premium" you speak of?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-SolidStateDisks-_-NA-_-NA

EDIT: LOL can't seem to get the link to work because of the ad below my post maybe this text below will help? If not just go to newegg and do a search for 128gb ssd.

 

LTR. That doesn't say that the drives were designed for the Z, but that the drive configuration was.

 

I've been using the 128GBx2 RAID 0 in my VAIO Z heavily for the last 6 months (it's my main machine). I have not noticed any issues whatsoever with reads or writes. In terms of everyday use, there is no significant difference between the RAID 0 Z and my HTPC (that currently has the Intel 160GB X25-M G2 disk with full TRIM support, as you all know). The Z's 256GB of storage is currently about 60%-70% full (performance would likely be seriously impacted if it were completely full).

However, assuming the new Z is available here in Japan with a 2.5" HDD, I will still order that, mostly because I would prefer not to have an optical drive.

 

I forgot to mention that I haven't reinstalled Windows 7 since December, and have not performed any maintenance in particular aside from driver/Windows updates.

 

So you are saying they just grabbed these drives off the shelf somewhere? I'm not sure I follow? Especially since i've never seen doublesided SSD's designed specifically to run in RAID before nor have I ever seen quad ssd's done in any laptop before...not sure how this is anything but a product designed for the Z?

 

Well, my perception on this is that a significant component like the SSD etc would not be put into a complex product like the Z-series laptop, without there being exhaustive end-to-end cradle-to-grave testing by Sony, and exhaustive data behind the device's performance (both near term performance and also the performance after extensive usage, under all kinds of scenarios). IMHO, Sony is rock solid confident about the performance of the product - near term and long term.

I would not conform to the viewpoint that Sony is pulling a fast one on their consumers by trying to sell their ultra-high-end-flagship product like the Z-series, based on the initial speed of the device, while internally knowing that the performance would degrade to unacceptable levels over time.

Bottomline, all of us are speculating about what Sony has done within the SSDs installed into the new Z-series. And if Sony is confident about the device, I personally would too. If I am in the market for such a product, and can afford the price of entry, I would happily pick up one of these units.

 

Well, that sounds authoritative.

Thanks!

 

They're not that uncommon. OCZ Apex and Adata SX94, to mention a couple.

If I were to guess, yes, they grabbed them off the Samsung OEM shelf, and designed (or, more likely, paid a TW company to design) a new bracket to fit two of them without casing, since there wasn't enough space for two full 2.5" bays.

Two SSDs in a notebook isn't new (the first generation Z had that as an option), but using two already striped SSDs in a plaid stripe is new.
That doesn't make the drives special, just the configuration.

 

So these OCZ Apex and Adata are doublesided SSD running raid from a single drive slot? How do they do TRIM/GC in these?

 

From the youtube videos it appears the SSD modules (for example the 2x 256(double sided) modules) have a ZIF connector on them.
found this
http://www.photofast.se/1.8_V4_IDE_ZiF.html
says there's GC on them and it's using an Indilinx controller.
Though if you compare the one in the video with the picture in this review you can see these are not the same drives.
http://images.google.gr/imgres?imgu...R347GR348&sa=N&um=1&ei=Rvl5S9GsAZuM_AbKpvymCg

But considering The V4 has been around for a few months I hope Sony's had the time to study the GC and/or TRIM case and provide a suitable solution.
BTW, looking at the support files on the new Z's download page, the intel RAID controller software has an inf file and in there it states it is for the same controller as the one in my old Z, that is the ICH9M-E
When I got inside the controller's settings (pressing Ctrl+I during boot) I got the option to configure the two drives as RAID 0, 1 or JBOD so I am 99% certain the new one (since it is using the same controller) will allow for JBOD so long as they have not locked the bios.

 

I also recommend you look into this
http://www.photofast.se/Evolution.html
Apparently drives with internal raid cannot have a second RAID controller so my guess is SONY did something special and did not use run of the mill OCZ or Adata.

 

Upon re-reading this review, it suggests to me that the VAIO Z configured as JBOD may support TRIM if the author knows what he's talking about...

Samsung's contribution comes in the form of four 64GB SSDs which Sony has harnessed in a striped 256GB RAID0 array, and fast just doesn't do it justice. We ran it through the AS SSD and ATTO Disk Benchmark suites and read performance peaked around 600MB/sec, with write speeds topping out at around 430MB/sec. In tandem with Intel's Core i7-620M, it transforms the Sony into that rarest of beasts: a featherweight workstation.

The one glaring issue is that SSDs suffer from performance degradation over time and, crucially, the RAID controller prevents Windows 7 from activating the individual drives’ TRIM support to alleviate the issue. The only solution for power users intending to regularly thrash the array will be to wipe the drives, rebuild the RAID array and reinstall Windows once such degradation occurs.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/laptops/355384/sony-vaio-vpcz11z9e-b/2

 

Well, soon as I get my Z I have a list of things to do:
Make an image of the recovery partition and maybe burn a set of recovery disks as well.
Then tear the thing apart to take some photos and see if I can have another HDD or SSD in place of the Blu-ray (because I might want to do that in the future and I want to know my options)
And then try to access the raid controller's settings to make the disks operate in JBOD mode.
Since I have already preordered a Signature Edition I believe I can cover most of you and whatever questions you may have.

I am thinking a dedicated thread will be in order to let you hammer me with questions and maybe offer benchmarks or apps to run.

 

I ordered the fully-loaded CTO version that has everything the top Signature model has, but w/ premium carbon instead of glossy premium carbon and the 1600x900 screen instead of the 1920x1080 screen. I also like that you can get the "Fresh Start" instead of all the bloatware that comes on the Signature version. It's still expensive, though.

 

And.....FINALLY.
http://www.jp.sonystyle.com/Special/Computer/Vaio/Z/20100216/index.html

 

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

March 6th...

 

So, the purchasing procedure here is a bit complicated:

Sony Japan is giving first shipment to their best customers. People with Sony Japan IDs must register by Monday (22nd), at which time Sony will begin presales to the people who registered by then (general sales begin next Thursday). After this time, it seems that the preregistered people will be able to order the unit, and the order of shipment (estimated at March 6th) will be based on the amount of Sony STAR points the buyer has. I have only about 6500, which is probably a "medium" amount of STAR points. I guess some of the people on 2ch have 100,000 points or more...

 

Yup, this is what I am waiting for someone to try. I suspect TRIM will work with the Z, Sony just won't offer it as a CTO option - you'll have to have some technical knowhow and do it yourself. The only reason this would not be the case is if (1) it's not possible to de-RAID the drives or (2) the drives don't support TRIM.

 

Thanks a lot for the explanation , it was really confusing (my Japanese is not great). I have zero STAR points so I think I have no choice than to wait... At least it would be cool if they could show one sample in their Vaio store in Odaiba...

 

Here's my specification:

* Premium Carbon Lid, black palmrest
* i7-620M
* 1080p display
* 8GB Memory
* 2.5" 320GB 5400RPM Disk Drive (I will swap with the Intel 160GB X25-M G2)
* NO WWAN or WiMAX (I may reconsider this, but currently iPhone tethering works just fine)
* Noise-canceling headphones
* Fingerprint reader/TPM security chip (I may reconsider this)
* Web camera
* NO FeliCa port (I use FeliCa a bit in my job, but never on my personal machine)
* USB x 2 + iLink (as opposed to USB x 3)
* Japanese keyboard (backlit; it's an option here)
* S battery (may purchase L battery depending on battery life)
* Regular AC adapter (as opposed to stick; I wonder if it's the same as the current Z for which I already have three adapters)

This works out to a very reasonable ¥208,300. I was actually shocked that it was this cheap being so well loaded with equipment. The expensive parts are definitely the Blu-Ray drive and RAIDed SSDs. At this price, though, Sony will have big trouble keeping up with demand (particularly for the HDD model, perhaps?).

 

Sure they can. Look up "plaid raid". You just need controllers with different RAID markers.

But that doesn't matter, because you don't need a controller for striping anyhow -- you have two "RAID 0" drive assemblies, each of which has a single SATA cable, and stripe them together using software (or fakeraid, which is also software, but with BIOS support for adding/removing/testing members).

And I never said Sony used OCZ or AData -- they were examples of existing 2-in-1 drives that use internal striping., since another user here seemed convinced that this was a Sony/Samsung invention for the Z. Sony of course uses drives straight from Samsung, but at this point there's no telling which SSD controller they use. Hopefully not JMicron.

 

If you already have a Sony computer purchased fairly recently, try registering it. I think you could get STAR points just through registering the PC (or other Sony product).

Wouldn't it be more likely that the Z would be displayed at the Sony Building in Ginza instead of the shop in Odaiba? I haven't been to the Sony Building recently because I can never get out work early enough and am too busy/lazy on weekends to haul over there. The Z may be there from today, since it was just released officially.