Sony SZ 110 - 120 (brushed metal finish) Electric shock / tingle on palmrest ?

I have had the same issue with the voltage problem and have the following comments:

1. It is a voltage issue and has nothing to do with the metal on the palmrest or HDD or DVD drive vibration

2. You cannot go to a store to evaluate other models because on my machine it is an intermittent problem. I go for days with no voltage but then it will happen. It has never happened on battery power or in the dock but seems to only happen when I am plugged into an AC outlet (even then, it only happens 30-50% of the time.

This is not likely something that can be user fixed and will probably require replacement. That is why I expect Sony to do everything possible to ignore/deny the problem.

 

Could be all it needs is a properly grounded power supply.

 

I beg to differ, mkay. This issue has EVERYTHING to do with the metal palmrests on these machines. I visited several electronics retailers tonight and "rubbed" the metal palmrests of the Sony SZ series as well as all the models of the Toshiba Qosmio line each store had. For those that are not familiar with the Toshiba Qosmio, it is a desktop replacement line Toshiba makes that has a metal palmrest very similar to that of the Sony SZ series. When I ran my finger across the metal surfaces of both the Sony's and the Toshiba's, I experienced the EXACT SAME "vibration" sensation. This made sense, as both machines were plugged in and both have the same metal/aluminum palmrest. I did this using ONE FINGER ONLY (to maximize any current that may have been transferred) , and I did it for several minutes and felt no ill effects. As may have been mentioned before, the "tingling" or "vibrating" sensation is only felt when you slide or rub your fingers across the metal surface. Nothing is felt in the course of normal use. I am by no means an electrician, but I don't think this is much of a hazard at all.

Javier

 

That's funny the Toshiba was mentioned... I noticed the exact same thing with the Toshiba as well later tonight when I was at the store. Though I didn't test it with a volt meter... I did still have my USB cable and it was the exact same feeling.

edit: I can feel a tingle just by touching /gliding my fingers AND can amplify the feeling about 5 times with the usb cable or touiching ground with my other hand.


the Toshiba model with almost the exact same tingle I noticed the voltage on in the store was the Toshiba Qosmio G35-AV600.

Exact same (or very similar) tingle / voltage feeling on it's metal front cover as I experienced with the Sony SZ metal rest.

This is clearly not something limited to Sony models and perhaps an issue where certain people that can "feel" voltage may just have to live with and or consider when buying a laptop.


but again.. the problem is also there and front and center with the Toshiba Qosmio G35-AV600 on the palm rest... at least I can also confirm this about what javylsu mentioned.

Edit: this is very wierd indeed.. both models have metal palm rests and BOTH models have finger print reraders made by the SAME manufacturer.

another side note is that Sony and Toshiba are 2 manufacturer that I hold in high regard in terms of their products that I have used in the past (I have a few older Toshiba laptops as well with no problems).

edit: and I also agree with mkay to a degree in that you can't tell by only testing the store models. As an example, I found one sony that was "on" that had no problems at all in the store. But the 2 units they had in stock did have the issue.

So it's something that each individual must "feel" on their own in their own homes (preferably) and decide on their own what they do IF they feel this wierd electrical tingle / voltage issue in what appears to by the SZ and the Toshiba G35 model.

 

For more comment about the electronic shock with SZ, click here: http://geek.com/news/geeknews/2006Jan/bch20060308035176.htm

 

Hi All,

I just received my SZ1VP (European version) 4 days _early_ I don't have an issue with the electric tingle with this computer, but it's _very_ noticeable on my old Z505R. The main difference is that with the 505, there is no chassis ground connector (2 prong only).

On the SZ1VP power brick, there are the two power leads plus the chassis ground. The chassis ground is connected to the _negative_ power supply connection on the computer side.

Note that there can be very large potential differences between the chassis ground and the power ground. I don't know what the power brick looks like in the US. As someone previously pointed out, it would be interesting if someone with a different power supply has the same issue.

Skrunch.

 

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony...sem/rpsm/oid/144420/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

sale...

 

After I wrote my message, I realized that my wording was quite correct. I know it has something to do with the metal but I am convinved it is not a vibration issue but rather it is an electrical issue. It is some sort of electrical leakage problem and it is intermittant. I am not an expert on these things but I have been thinking that it is a likely design fault because it is obviously effecting many, many people. I am going to call Sony on Monday and I expect them to not deal with it. It may require more of a class action lawsuit if hundreds or thousands of users are effected.

 

You guys are going a little nuts with this. It is not a leakage problem. It is a matter of your body's electrical ground state being slightly different than the ground the machine is attached to. This results in your ability to sense the electrical current balancing the difference in potential between you and the machine. It "feels" a little like a vibration. The "vibration" is going to be right about 60Hz, the same as a standard US electrical outlet. The reason it "appears" intermittently is that your body's "grounded" state changes depending on environmental conditions, and materials you are in contact with.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't any machines that have some other problem, but I know what I have been able to discern regarding my machine is normal and acceptable.

 

I use the Kensington power supply. I have not been zapped by my machine, but I have been able to feel the "vibration" sensation.

 

what's all this nonesense? stop your whinning and enjoy free therapy this notebook provides... a little of electricity is good for you.


http://www.sfowler.com/electrichealth/electrichealth.htm

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688069711/102-0072400-1062575?vi=glance&n=283155

 

I wonder if Sears still carries those electric belts. That genital loop sounds interesting

 

Just tried mine out, dont feel a tingle. Did the support say anything at all or are they being useless as usual?

 

After all this talk I had to try this for myself so I rushed home and hooked up my multimeter and started testing my SZ160. What I found was an alarming amount of AC current being passed by the palmrest. Oddly in order for the meter to register I had to be part of the circuit. Simply touching the probe to the palmrest and the other to ground didn't read much of anything but when I held the probe and one hand and touched the palmrest with my finger it shot through the roof. Since I was replacing my old TR3AP with this new SZ160 I thought I'd give it a try. Much to my surprise I could create a similar effect when touching the bottom of the TR3AP but not the plastic palmrest. My theory is that all laptops have this effect to some extent but b/c the SZ has a metal palmrest or through some fault of design the effect is most prominent where you touch it the most. With my older laptop you would never have noticed the current leakage b/c the plastic palmrest transfers a negligable amount of current. My two cents...

 

So, what are you calling an "alarming" amount of AC current?

 

I noticed this with my old ACER laptop. With the AC plugged into it I had to type carefully because I electric tingling was horrible, but my wife seldom noticed it.
Depends on ones sensitivity.

Initially, I thought it might have been a floating earth because the laptop was a UK power supply running on a Chilean household supply, which has no earth... I brought the laptop into work, which US (110v), and the problem went away. Better grounding in the office.

Regardless of the grounding, voltage was passing through the palm rest on the ACER unit, which was another reason that pushed me into buying a new... SZ. Deep sigh.

 

This is a result of the two-pin power supply. There's no true earth to use as a reference point, so you end up with a floating earth that will vary with fluctuations in the AC supply. A three-pin power supply (with a proper earth) should fix it.

 

Curiosity got the best of me, I had to try this for myself to see what it was like.

I went to my local CC, they have an SZ120 on display. Running the back of my hand along the lip of the palm rest and sure enough... it was definately there, I could feel the "vibration".

I wouldn't call it a "tingle", to me it was more like a subtle, extremely rapid vibration/pulse. I didn't have a great way to ground myself, I just touched the metal display shelving with my other hand and it increased the effect from subtle to definately noticeable.

Weird wild stuff. Doesn't hurt, but it's pretty odd. I'd be inclined to let sony fix that before I plunk down 2k+ for one.

 

that's just the texture u are feeling.

if you really want to see if there is current (and yes i do know that is may be odd to do in a store ) is to touch the palm rest with the very tip of your upper lip.
You will notice a very tiny sensation which (in my opinion) cannot be felt with fingertips.

 

How does that tell you if there is current? You can have a chemical reaction between the enzymes in your saliva acting as an electrolyte, and the aluminum that can generate a small amount of electricity and cause a tiny sensation. The ONLY to measure current is with a meter.

 

OK, I finally got my meter out to measure current. Guess what? It is NOT measurable to any significant degree. 0.00ma, AC or DC. That doesn't mean there is nothing there, it just means it is so low, it is no danger. I know one guy claimed his was so bad it caused him pain, and he cartainly may have had a problem with that unit, but the little "vibration" sensation, I'm guessing is not the same situation.

 

Yeah, thats a good idea, go stick your tongue on a piece of metal that hundreds of people have been touching over the last few weeks.

 

it was a good idea for me because i did it on my own laptop...

Anyway, i'll let you guys meter the whole thing out

 

Ostack,

Would you be so kind to test your machine on the ~200v AC setting? I was able to see quite a difference when I completed a circuit by touching the laptop on AC. The circuit was Plug -> AC -> Laptop -> Me -> Meter (grounded back to the grounding screw on the same outlet as the Laptop is plugged into).

 

Bah, germs are good for you, in small doses. Lick a few things a day - boost your immune system.

 

I'm not picturing that circuit very well. I tested with the laptop plugged into the charger, and the charger plugged into the wall. Sitting at a desk with the laptop on, and I was able to touch the palmrest and feel the electricity. The whole point of this exercise is to test the electrical potential between the user and the laptop. That is done by holding one probe, and touching the other probe to the palmrest. This electricity that everyone is so concerned with exists between the user (hand), and the palmrest. There is no point in testing any other part or circuit, because, the only place where electricity is being felt is where the palmrest and hand meet.

I used an auto-ranging digital meter. I measured a little over 1VAC between my hand and the palmrest. 0VDC. My meter did not register anything when checking for amperage.

I did not do any testing between the outlet ground and anywhere else. I may if I get bored.

 

Ostack,

Thanks for trying that out for me. I'm sorry if my description was a little cryptic. I'd post a picture on the web but I don't want to fan this flame any more if I'm doing somthing wrong or miss-reading things. I've spoken with Sony and they want me to send it to them for testing. I'll let you know what they determine.

 

I would be interested to hear what they have to say about it. I don't think it is wrong for anyone to be concerned about getting zapped by electricity. I just don't there is a very good foundation for the amount of concern that has been expressed here. I mean, people don't typically jump to conclusions about stuff that they recieve a static discharge from, and that is arguably much more physically disturbing than the "vibration" sensation coming from a laptop.

 

ostack,
I'm "Bob" from the geek.com story; I just discovered the discussion y'all are having here.

The reasons I am more concerned about this than static discharge is:
1) I *know* what causes static discharge. I can wear a heel-strap, or I can do a wrist-strap, or crank my humidifier up. The SZ problem is an unknown... I don't know if it's going to get worse over time, etc.
2) Static discharge is a one-time zap. If I've been shuffling across the floor I know I'm going to get a single DC zap, and that's it. The SZ problem is a constant AC current which for me means *hours* of exposure at a time.

I think you do a disservice to people by trying to minimize this issue. If it's 3 VAC, that may be trivial and inconsequential to you if you're young and in good health, but dangerous to older more frail people. Especially since it isn't a one time zap, but rather a constant perpetual current.

 

You are exactly right, in that the problem is that people do not know. Jumping to conclusions about this is the disservice. I would agree that if your state of health is such that this may be a concern, you also should probably steer clear of most all devices that emit electromagnetic fields and RF in general. Not to mention toxins in the air and water. Motor vehicles are very dangerous also.

Seriously though, I'm not saying there isn't something there. I'm just saying it sounds like some people are jumping the gun on this, rather than trying to sort it out logically. You would be surprized the kinds of things you can measure 1-3VAC from. If you know of any studies that indicate any kinds of problems related to very low AC voltage and or very low AC current exposure, please point the way. I'm not so proud to say I'm not wrong. I just have not seen any evidence that indicates this is not normal, let alone poses a threat, save for the one guy that seemed to really have a problem with his.

 

Anything less than appr. 50VDC is not considered hazardous. What is hazardous is current. It takes very little current to cause heart damage. I've heard anywhere from 10 ma - 40 ma can cause problems.

3VAC does not seem like much of an issue. Considering ESD (static electricity) is several thousands of volts.

I'm not sure how you are reading back AC voltage? The power adapter outputs DC (although I'm sure there is some AC ripple) to the computer.

 

Modern AC/DC converters are NOT electrically isolated, so it is not uncomon to get some AC leakage though the output side.

 

It's hard for me to believe that on the output of a normally operating Sony converter that there is 19VDC and 3VAC! That's a hell of a lot of ripple. I could see .5VAC ..maybe 1VAC but 3VAC? If that is acceptable output from Sony's adapters then they have ****tastic specs.

 

Well, I've only measured a hair over 1VAC, and it is not necessarily at the output, but being leaked through the circuit to ground. I really can't say for sure, I haven't measured AC across the - and +. Also, I've been using the Kensington AC/DC adpter, not the Sony. I've felt the "vibration" sensation on both.

One thing of note, is that when I'm plugged in to an inverter, I have not noticed the same sensation. I haven't tried measuring voltage there.

 

The new Qosmio feels the EXACT same. I checked it out yesterday at CompUSA (ours has the Vaio SZ sleeve in stock..very nice...pricey but nice)

I decided not to worry about it, except to monitor it and see if there are any issues that come up. I haven't decided whether to get an extended warranty or not, though.

 

My new direct-from-Sony SZ160 got here today and... Same shock issue.

I guess I'm going to have to buy the Kensington AC adapter that ostack is using to see if that solves the issue.

 

You will probably still have it with the Kensington adapter. To be honest, I haven't used the Sony adapter much, only in the car, and I have never felt it while plugged into the inverter in the car, even with the Sony adapter.

 

There is no difference in the "sensations" reported when using the Kensington adapter. I have the exact same Kensington AC adapter as ostack. The only thing different that happens is that I can't use my fingerprint reader. That's what led me to return it today. Shame, really, because it's a much nicer form factor than the OEM brick, but I use my fingerprint sensor too much to deal with that issue.

Javier

 

That is strange. I no problems with the reader when using my Kensington adapter.

I assume you'll be trying a different aftermarket adapter?

 

I was thinking about trying the Targus 90W adapter, but that thing is so friggin' HUGE - the Sony OEM brick is smaller! Soooo, I wound up buying another Sony OEM brick for around $30 shipped from this site:

http://www.techonweb.com/products/productdetail.aspx?id=B51500&src=PG

At that price point, I'm willing to forgo the "convenience" of the all-in-one charger...

Javier

 

The "issue" also occurs when getting power through the docking station (with the original AC adapter).

Also, it's possible to feel the same "vibration" by lightly brushing the back of your finger against the LCD screen (yes, the panel) as if you are brushing off a piece of stubborn lint, with the power supply plugged in (but make sure no other part of you is touching the rest of the computer such as the palm rest).

Still, all said and done, I can only ever notice this "vibration" if I specifically TRY to generate the effect.

 

There may indeed be a ground leakage current that you can feel, but you'll need the right equipment to measure it. Since the DMMs used so far aren't indicating anything high enough to feel, but yet some are feeling it, it may be an AC voltage at the switching frequency of the switching power supply in the AC adapter, something over 50 KHz usually. You won't be able to measure that with a low cost DMM. You can measure it with an isolated oscilloscope though. By isolated, I mean not powered by the AC mains, not even through an isolation transformer (which typically pass AC current at 50 KHz and will ruin the accurracy of your readings). You'll need a battery operated oscilloscope. One running off an unplugged UPS will work. Measure the voltage from AC ground to the laptop case.

 

Oh Jesus! It's a resurrected thread!!!

Javier

 

I'm going to try another method of testing. I'm going to take mine in the shower with me and see if I can feel anything.

 

Lol! I just noticed this now. I never took off my plastic stickers off my palm rest. But I can feel it with my fingers and on the lcd screen. When I remove the power chord its gone.

Has anybody contacted Sony about this? Just to hear their side? I would but they already herd enough from me about the battery issue.

 

You feel it on an LCD screen? (plastic)
surely just feeling ESD which you would feel on all laptops.

 

Thats what I thought untill I pulled out the power cord. The feeling goes goes away.

Another way you can tell, is while th eunit is plugged in, touch the palm rest area with one hand and rub(lightly touch) the lcd screen. The screen will feel smooth. You take your other hand off the palm rest area, and you feel that same grippy feeling.

 

I have just received my SZ160 back from Sony service where their solution to the problem was that they covered the entire palm rest in a thin sheet of clear plastic (2 pieces actually cut to fit on either side of the touchpad). I will post photos as soon as I can. Needless to say I'm not pleased with this chintzy repair on a $2500 laptop.

 

Ok well no tingling on the 2 SZ's I have here ...,

 

Returned my old laptop. Charging new. New unit has that same staticy feel. Easy way to test was have my wife run her finger on the unit. She hit be thinking I zaped her. If battery life is gonna be the same, and I'm pretty sure it will be, its going back again. And force them to just return my money.
And HOPEFULLY the sony store in CA still has a sz160 in stock. And yes, I'm aware that unit has the same static shock issue, but at least I shouldn't be able to grumble about bettery life... I hope...