Sony Vaio Z "sticky", squeaky keys & doubled type

Hi everyone -

I also have this problem. I own a VGN-Z610Y and get the double type a good deal. I also type fast. I type in Dvorak and average 80-100 wpm.

I'm also a computer engineer and think the problem may be the "debouncing" algorithm in the hardware. Debouncing is the process of identifying when a keystroke occurs and when it ends. If a debouncing algorithm signals the end of a keystroke too quickly, it'll see 2 keystrokes since the user hasn't lifted their finger from the key yet.

What is interesting is that when debouncing algorithms are wrong, they *usually* wrong when the user is typing too quickly, not too slowly. I know it sounds weird, but it's true.

Unfortunately, I only know the theoretical aspects to debouncing, I've never actually implemented keyboard debouncing. However, I would suspect that if someone elevated this issue to the computer engineers building the Z's and mention they have a "DEBOUNCING ERROR" they might understand the problem and perhaps be able to fix it with a software patch. This is, however, pure speculation, I don't know any of the details regarding the actual implementation of Z's microarchitecture.

I have tried to contact Sony myself, but never seem to get anywhere with their tech support. So, good luck if someone pursues this.

 

Just bought a Vaio VGN-FW290 and have the problem of duplicate entries on random keystrokes. Tried adjusting software for keyboard to NO avail.

Oddly, my wife has the 17" version of the same notebook and hhas (duplicate keystroke NOT intended but left as an example) NO such problem.

It would seem Sony would respond properly with a fix.

 

Update: Sony had me remove the keyboard from device manager and reboot to reinstall the driver. No change. Had me do a system restore. No change. Wanted me to do a C drive restore and lose my data and programs, told them I'd return the notebook and buy a Toshiba before I'd waste three days I spent transitioning to the new Vaio.

Then they had me do a BIOS reset. Seems to have at minimum reduced if not eliminated the issue. I would offer that as a suggestion.

Basically, on reboot hold down the F2 key to access BIOS and choose reset to default and enter and exit and save and enter.

 

Hi everyone -

I have a partial solution that seems to work for Windows XP.

I'm going to try mvandor's suggestion by resetting the BIOS and see what happens. However, I have used a partial solution for several days now and I have minimized the problem to occurring once every hundred words or so.

The solution is very easy: use filter keys.

To use filter keys, simply:

(1) go to the control panel
(2) click on accessibility options
(3) click "Use Filter Keys" and then go to its "Settings"
(4) select "Ignore quick keystrokes and slow down the repeat rate"

Note: DO NOT choose "Ignore repeated keystrokes" as this option makes typing words with repeated letters such as "door" impossible.

(5) Select "Slow down keyboard repeat rates"
(6) I use the repeat delay of 0.3 seconds and repeat rate of 0.3 seconds, the fastest setting I can use.

This solution does have the side-effect of preventing fast repeating keystrokes, such as holding down the down arrow to scroll through an email or what not ... so it is not "ideal" by any means, but it does seem to work effectively.

 

Hi everyone -

I take it back, Filter Keys do not solve the problem. Weirdly enough, the problem still occurs when Filter Keys are in place. This is doubly weird since Filter Keys are supposed to prevent double typing for a certain peroid of time.

Also, I tried mvandor's BIOS suggestion and the double type problem seemed to be minimized for a day or so, but then things went back to normal.

So, that's two solutions that don't work.

 

Hi everyone -

Here's an update on my latest status.

(1) I sent the Z back to Sony for repair. They replaced the keyboard and cable and then sent it back to me.

(2) The problem started occurring immediately. Replacing the keyboard and cable did not fix the problem.

(3) I've called Sony again and they are taking the laptop back a **second** time to try to fix it. I've explained to them that I am rather unhappy about having them try to fix the same problem twice, but I'm going to try this one more time.

(4) I've posted a video on youtube comparing the keyboard behavior of my old laptop to the Z. It clearly shows the problem is the Z, not the typing. Here's the link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWFzkfI0AdM

I'm hoping Sony is going to fix the laptop correctly this time. If they don't, I'm probably going to request they replace the laptop with a new one, one last time before I file a lawsuit in small claims, like this guy:

http://weblog.infoworld.com/gripeline/archives/2008/05/suing_sony.html

 

Hey guys!!

I've bought a Z590 and I'm having the same problem: double keys most of the time!

Anyway, I was thinking about returning this GREAT Notebook just because of that. However, after reading jgottschlich's message and the difficulties he had, I decided to fix the problem. By the way, I can't find a better notebook for my needs so that's enough motivation to build a "10 minute program".

So here's a little program (3KBytes, assembled with MASM) that will fixes the issue. At least that is true on my Z. I've been using it for two weeks and yes, it works well (fixes double-type the problem!).

Check it out and let me know if it works for you guys. Just run the program and minimize it (it will stay on the notification area).

If you can, post me feedback about how it worked on your Z Series! Of course, the program should work with any PC that has the double-type problem!

Download ZEchoFix

Code:

http://rapidshare.com/files/223252686/zechofix.zip

Thanks,
MagicMac.

 

MagicMac -

We owe you so big!!! This is working perfectly. And I know it's working correctly because when I disable your program, the double type returns immediately.

Since using your program, I *cannot* reproduce the double type scenario that I demonstrate in my YouTube video.

If you have a paypal account, I'd like to make a donation to you for fixing this nightmare. I'd also like to see your source code, if you are cool with that.

You can email me at [email protected] to discuss this off the forums.

Thanks again MagicMac, this is a superb fix. It's working flawlessly. We are all indebted to you.

Cheers,
Justin

 

Hey... I cannot believe we have a solution at the LAST page of this 16 page thread!

I was considering buying myself a http://www.sony.co.in/product/vgn-z36gd (I am from India, just in case you are wondering) but my opinion about the laptop started deteriorating as I read the reports on this page.

But you come as a savior my man.

Please do post the source code... I want to see how you approached this problem

 

Dear magicman,

thanks a lot for your program. I will be posting my experiences with my laptop, which I did not have yet. Why not? The reason is very clear, after reading about the double-key issue I did not want to accept to live with it. Well now it is time to go for it. I hope mine will not have the problem but if this happen you gave us the solution. I am wondering why sony 9 months after launching the notebook and knowing the issue is not fictitious or imaginary did not fix the problem yet.
Again, thanks a lot and all the best to you,

James

 

I hope Magicmac doens't mind me doing this, but I went through the code and see that he is discarding repeated strokes within 100 msec of each other.

Side effect is that you can get a max of 10 repeats in a second. Not a big deal really.

We can probably have a more sophisticated solution based on the same principle

 

The asus eee pc also has a similar double key problem. The fix there was adjusting some accessibility settings. It may work here as well:

Go to Control Panel\Ease of Access Center
-Make the keyboard easier to use
-Turn on filter keys (and adjust settings).

These setting are for windows XP, but it looks the same for Vista:

http://forum.eeeuser.com/viewtopic.php?pid=364796#p364796

 

@jgottschlich --> Thanks a lot, man! No donations needed. Your message was my motivation to code it, and it was a "10 minutes program".

@james2312 --> Of course, go for it! It is a very good notebook (without this double type issue).

@KiD0M4N --> Thank you! I don't have problems with binary debugging but here's the source code so you don't have to IDA/Olly.

@bjornb --> I did not try your solution. Have anyone tried? The other solutions posted here (tweakingthe KeyRepeatDelay) didn't work for me. Thanks anyway!

Again, this is a program built in 10 minutes. That means that it can be MUCH BETTER, but I did not invest more time in it because it fixed the problem and there's (for me) only one side effect: if you keep a key pressed, it won't be repeated as fast as if the program were not there. Anyway, this side effect can be easily fixed too. If somebody else want to take the source and make it better, great! Post it here also.

How it's done:

1) It is using the LowLevelKeyboardHook instead of regular hooks, so we don't need to inject a DLL in every process. That saves A LOT of memory.

invoke SetWindowsHookEx, WH_KEYBOARD_LL, LowLevelKeyboardProc, hInstance, 0


2) This is the pseudocode:

if (pressedKey == lastpressedKey && timeElapsed < 100 msecs)
{
Neutralize_KeyPress()
}

That's it.

Code:

Source Code (and executable)
http://rapidshare.com/files/223593045/zechofix_source.zip

Thanks a lot, guys! I'm happy that it worked well for you!
MagicMac.

 

Yup.

Kind of what I had thought you were doing Sweet...

I will see if I can expand on it a little bit

 

rep added all round

 

Hi guys,

I have written the tool now. Please download and let me know if all is right. Allows you to customize the filter as well.

Regard,
Karan

 

Has anyone exe renced the opposite problem on the Vaio Z keyboard? Since day 1, I get missing key presses from time to tim e I'm not a fast typer, but it seems like sometimes they keyboard lags and cant keep up with my typing. I can even see that it trails by a splitsecond sometimes and that's when misses usually ha pen. I can verify this by holding a ky down and watching it lag as it auto repeats. If I am typing quickly, it happens almost once a sentence or so on average I'd say. On the flip side if I type slowly and deliberately, it almost never happens. It seems worse on some websites like this one, but that may jus tbe subjectve.

It's almost as if Sony implemented a stealth fix for the problem on this thread and went too far.

Anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions on what to try to f i it?

 

Yes, I am having the complete opposite problem. My "G" key in particular seems to never work whenever I type a word quickly. If it ends in "g", it gets lopped off. Please contact me if you ever hear of a fix.

I don't know if the ideas above will work or not.

Corey Creed

 

yea it really almost sounds like sony discretely put out a fix but is not working properly.. i am having similat issues..

 

I noticed this problem very early and never heard of a solve. The only advice others who had encountered the same problem was, "You'll get used to it." No, I won't and I haven't. That, along with the lack of a dedicated pgup/pgdn key and end/home keys are deal killers if I could go back and rethink my purchase.

 

Maybe complain to Sony?

If they have come up with a fix - if they repair it, it may be the "new stuff".

 

I agree completely.

 

I have the same problem now!

i never had the double stoke issue but I am missing keys when i am typing..

oh man, this is so annoying, anyone know if there is like a quick fix?

 

The only idea that comes to my mind for you guys (the ones with the missing keys) is to boot in safe mode without loading a single program at startup, and see what happens.

My theory is that Sony could not change the hardware so fast, so maybe (again, just maybe) they did a bad software fix, which does not always work well.

If their fix is a software, you can simply remove it and install the one provided here. If their fix is vía hardware, I don't think there will be a workaround.

 

Thanks Magicmac! You are incredible for writing the problem.

The reason why I didn't notice it earlier (even though I was one of the early participants in the thread) is that -- the problem did continue to lessen over time to the point where I almost never have it now. Other problems that started (squeeky keys and right click not responding) also went away, so I think that the machine does seem to get better with time. My left alt did break a bit so it's a bit wobbly now, but still works fine, and not bad for a computer I use over 14 hours a day for 14 months (already on second battery).

For those who lament not having dedicated pg-up/pg-down, back, forward, etc. keys, I recommend this Autohotkey script which maps your (mostly useless) apps key into a second hotkey so that aps + up/ aps+down = pg up/pg down. useful for one hand scrolling:

AppsKey & Up::Send {PgUp}
AppsKey & Down::Send {PgDn}

 

I have done semi-clean installs of XP and Vista with no success. It may well be a software hack, but if so, it must be buried in one of the other Sony software driver packs. If anyone is able to isolate the right one, I might be willing to lose some functionality in order to elimiate missed keystrokes. Any tips or instructions if you find the culprit would be appreciated!

 

Installing clean to install then the Sony drivers does not help. Why don't you install a virtual machine (VirtualBox) with any OS *without* Sony drivers and try to type there?

 

Because I have no idea what that is. Doing semi-clean installs of XP/Vista is about the limit of my patience. I'm hoping someone who has the same issue and is smarter and more determined than me will come up with a fix for us dummies.

I now suspect that this issue is made worse if your processor is throttled in your power settings. If I am in maximum battery (where my max processor is 50%), I find the problem gets worse when I have a number of windows open and it improves if I switch to balanced or performance. It doesn't completely eliminate the problem, but it does seem to have an effect since I discovered it today. I'll do some more testing when I notice it. Still doesn't explain it, but at least I know a partial fix when it bogs down a lot; I'll just plug in or crank up the power plan.

 

My current theory relates to the touchpad and resource use. I notice that my missing keys and pointer issues tend to happen a lot more frequently on max battery and if my thumbs hover anywhere near the touchpad. On max performance or if I make an effort to keep my hands away from the touchpad, it happens less (but doesn't go away completely). This theory might also explain why many people don't observe the problem, as it could relate to other software settings, too.

I've never had this issue before on a notebook. In searching, it seems that the Vaio Z has an Alps touchpad. I note that all the other notebooks I've used have Synaptics touchpads. Coincidence? Who knows...

I still have yet to devote any time to real testing. I'll get around to it eventually.

 

If you find a connection to the touchpad it may be an extension of the touchpad issue the SZ used to suffer from...

Bad insulation.... & static

 

The link to the tool of KiD0M4N on page 17 appears to be broken. Can anyone post a working link?

Thanks!

 

@Michael Cuthbert: sorry! I haven't read your message before. Thanks for your words and thanks for that tip about PageUp/PageDown!


@scrod: you said that "I have done semi-clean installs of XP and Vista with no success". Are you sure that you installed the Alps Touchpad driver AFTER installing Windows? Because the keyboard works HORRIBLE without that. Every time you touch the touchpad accidentally (which happens every time), the cursor will move and you will get... well, anything but what you really wanted. So make sure that you have the driver (download it from Sony) installed.


@Blik: I don't have the program that KiD0M4N coded, but it's based on the source that I posted here. This progam does exactly the same thing:

http://rapidshare.com/files/223252686/zechofix.zip

He coded it in C# and I coded it in ASM. He made a pretty interface, and mine sucks But it fixes the double type anyway!

Cheers!
MagicMac.

 

Sounds great -- I realize that I've never even used that key before. How do I implement the script? In other words, turning the apps key into an Fn key on the right side?

 

This may be common sense, but I use the Vaio Control Center (through S1) to take me to turn on/off the touchpad with one click. Most of the time I am using an external mouse, so turn it off, but this way I can easily turn it back on. What would be great would be if I could map the S1 or S2 key directly to turning the pad on and off.

 

Google AutoHotKey, download, and then click "edit this script" in the tray area. Paste in the lines I posted and then click "Reload the Script"

It's really a great tool -- I use it to map F2 through F10 to Ctrl-F2 to Ctrl-F10 in Outlook (and only Outlook) to make categorizing easier; reactivate Ctrl-Insert copy in Outlook (annoying!). set up Apps-H and Apps-V to hide and view hidden files. and lots more. One of the greatest apps I know. Really important when you switch to a new computer and wish that it did some things that your old one did. (email me if anyone wants other scripts; otherwise it's getting a bit far from Sony-Z annoyances).

 

I'm also having a squeaky space bar key when I click on the right side. I've only had my vaio f for a week and it is squeaking....I think I might return it, unless there is a durable fix.

 

I am having the same issue with the double type. Unacceptable for a premium product. No fix in a year? Returning.

 

I have tested a new Series Z at a Sony Style store in San Jose today. Gorgeous laptop, fantastic display, fast, light, and double types like crazy.

Guys at the store set key repeat delay to maximum, no effect. I chatted with Sony support online, they insist they never heard of the problem.

 

Thanks all for this. I just registered to say thanks and to say I find it incredible that Sony claim to have never heard of this. I'm also having the problem of letters dissapearing whn typing fast, but I'll have to learn to live with that. I think there are probably dozens of people a day who find this thread and just read it without registering to say thanks. Fix this Sony! I cannot believe how much I paid for an inherently defective laptop!

By the way, for Windows novices, it would help to put one of the versions of the double letter fix programs in the 'startup' folder so it starts automatically when you next boot up.