Sony's definition of 100% saturation?

Hello all:

I'm having a tough time nailing down what sony means by 100% color saturation, in particular for the duraview monitor on the Z series.

Unfortunately way, way too many folks here have simply quoted the sony specs (without explanation) for search to be useful.

After reading through posts for a half hour the only explanation I've found is one poster stating that "100% saturation" means it covers 100% of the NTSC gamut. I can't find any specific information on either the US or Canadian site that corroborates this idea and it seems an odd standard to compare against when sRGB or aRGB would be a more familiar in the computer world. The only Sony model that comes close to an elaboration is the AW model "with Adobe RGB color management" which also seems an odd way to say that it covers adobe rgb gamut.

Does anyone have some specific information that they can kindly provide a link to? Or any review that has detailed information on the screen?

I had been looking at the MBP and a Dell Precision but the little Z would be so much more portable.

Thanks in advance.....

 

I distinctly remember seeing 100% NTSC color gamut somewhere when I first started looking at the Z series, but unfortunately I can't find where it was now. I'm pretty sure it was somewhere on one of Sony's sites though. I'll have another look and see if I can find it.

There are other issues with the colours on this screen though, as I have discovered and a couple of other people have investigated further... I posted about it in the VAIO Z Series Owner's Thread, from here and onwards for the next few pages:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?p=4397743#post4397743

 

OK, I've found one mention of it, although it isn't where I originally saw it... but it is from Sony.

http://www.sony-europe.com/pressrelease/id/1215514458989

 

Thanks Eddy2 -- sounds as though you've tried to figure this out as well?

Are you happy with the display? Have you tried profiling the screen with a colorimeter? I'm looking specifically at this unit for photographic programs like photoshop.

I'm sure the pattern of dots you're seeing is dithering. AFAIK, for current laptops, only the tablet-type laptops use anything but a 6 bit per color TN panel which is only capable of displaying 262,144 distinct colors while your laptop is undoubtably set to 8 bits per color or 16,777,216 distinct colors. The wider the gamut the larger the missing gaps and more evident this might be.

But the dithering is not evidence of a wider gamut since even an older limited gamut display would still be missing steps and trying to emulate colors it can't display. In the owners thread the others may not have been able to see what you were talking about since the patch you copied would be from the computer or graphics memory and would be the full 8 bits. Only if they displayed the same patch on the same LCD-panel, with the same settings, would they see the same dithering.

Your second reference is still is a very strange promo from Sony -- what exactly is "100% color fidelity"? Why mention a very old USA/Japan television standard on the Sony europe site? They use PAL not NTSC and computers use neither. I wasn't even aware that NTSC specified any sort of gamut but in a quick read at wikipedia it seems to be not just one standard but an old one with a series of amendments. I am perplexed that sony would compare to NTSC when one of it's nicknames is "Never The Same Color"!

At any rate I'm trying to compare the Z to some of the higher end (and much larger, heavier) dell computers like the M4400 which has a screen option that is spec'd to cover 100% of the adobe RGB color space(aRGB), which is a perfectly understood way of describing the color response. It still is presumably a 6 bit display so a larger gamut comes with a price and more visible dithering, banding, and posterization (all elements of the same 6-8 bit problem) would be the downside.

So can anyone verify that Sony means that the display can show the entire NTSC gamut AND that the NTSC gamut they are referring to will also cover the entire Adobe RGB gamut? My understanding is that the base (original) NTSC gamut was supposed to be larger than aRGB. I don't exactly get the AW series "with Adobe color management" either which doesn't read to me as saying that it covers the aRGB gamut.

Sorry for the longwinded response -- too much coffee this morning I guess. I've been having the same problem getting any sort of specific lcd information from ANY of the laptop companies,not just Sony. Too much marketing-speak TM's and I think a lot of them buy what ever LCD is cheapest at the time and don't want to tie their hands by publishing any specs. Sony sounds much more consistent in LCD quality.

 

I only really started looking into any of this after I noticed that pattern... I'm not really bothered about the colour gamut myself, I'd rather have a standard gamut LCD without the noticable dithering.

Yep, that's the conclusion I've come to based on what people have said about this... It seems it has a wider gamut than most LCDs, but no more colours, so they're more spread out, which is why the dithering pattern is noticable to me on this screen and not on other screens.

I know, but when I first posted that I had no idea what it was, so the idea was to see if other people with the same LCD panel also saw it - so that I could rule out it being a defect with mine.

That's pretty much what I thought when I first saw them say 100% NTSC colour gamut... that seems a slightly odd thing to base it on... which is why I remembered it

No idea about any of your other questions though... sorry. Hopefully someone else with more knowledge of that sort of thing will be able to help.

 

The Sony Z has probably the best laptop screen of any laptop i have ever seen all things considered. Especially when viewing photos on it so i would ASSume it would be a great laptop for editing photos BUT i'm not sure why you would want to on such a small screen

 

I have looked at the Z555 in person and I agree the screen is quite nice which is what brings me here. I would say it is easily the equal of the prior version 15" MBP with the matte screen. And though the sony store has a bit of smug it's nothing like the billowing clouds at the apple store.

The screen is definitely on the small side but I need something compact and as light as possible for travel. I have a 17 inch Toshiba at the moment but it's just too large and too heavy. For air travel I need to carry on a ton of photo gear in addition to the laptop.

At home I've got a full-fledged workstation so the laptop is for travel only. On the road the most important thing is I need to be able to accurately evaluate images and in some cases demo them. I'd rather give up some screen size for portability after lugging the toshiba around for years.

I called the Sony store as well as Sony support Canada and neither had any info. Mention NTSC and they assume you are talking about televisions.

Maybe it's my on compulsive personality but I want to know what the heck they mean. If Sony hadn't mentioned this it probably wouldn't bother me. On the other hand if the Z does have the gamut that the websites seem to be claiming it would be one more point in the Z's favor over the M4400 RGBLED display.

 

The NTSC color space is defined here:

http://www.babelcolor.com/download/A review of RGB color spaces.pdf

The Vaio claim specifically is: "The colour gamut of this beautiful LCD exceeds NTSC standards (u' v' axis, NTSC comparison), making it ideal for mobile use or at the office"

from: http://www.sony.com.sg/microsite/vaio/products/vaio_z/f3.html

FWIW, NTSC is very close to aRGB. Some marketing hack probably thought it would be more understandable that aRGB. *shrug*

 

Good to know and thanks as that does answer my question if I ignore the part in parenthesis.

Why on earth they would use such a convoluted method of describing the color gamut I really can't fathom. Using an obsolete standard for television from 1953 rather than a nearly identical and much more relevant term like Adobe RGB? ARGB means something --> even the sony laptop guy at the sony store thought I was talking about TVs! Makes no sense and looks suspicious to anyone leary of marketing-speak. But I digress...........

Thanks all and now I have to decide if I want to snap up one of the two remaining Z555's locally or wait a week for the Z6xx's which sound to be nearly identical at $400 more. I won't bother anyone with asking why the new models are so much more for what appears to be a few modest improvements like 4GB vs 3GB.

Thanks again!
Doug

 

To be fair to sony, if you search "wide color gamut NTSC" you find lots of sites talking about color gamut in terms of NTSC, from other manufacturers.

 

I'm not blaming Sony at all --> I'm just happy for any information I can find which is in very short supply in LCD Land. So far of the models I've looked at only Sony, Dell, and Lenovo provide any information at all and usually only for higher end models.

I think Sony would attract more attention by a simple statement that the display can reproduce the full aRGB gamut. I'm a photographer but I suspect that such a phrase would interest others in the graphics and/or art fields much more than anything referring to NTSC.

Looking at desk-top based LCD monitors and LCD TV's there are a range of standard specs like luminance, contrast, response time, etc. Not commonly found with laptops. My theory is that none of the laptop manufacturers want to be trapped by any claims so that they can always buy whatever panel is cheapest at the moment. Several of the manufacturers seem to go out of the way to obscure the fact that the panels are all 6 bit (I.E. claims of "millions of colors").

I'm just happy that I have another choice that is much smaller than the Dell M4400 and not encumbered with OSX. And it has firewire -- oops iLink! When I started looking for a new laptop I had thought that there would be a much larger and better selection of displays but sadly that is not true.

Thanks
Doug

 

Yeah - laptop displays generally suck. Apple and Sony generally have better screens, but even they don't disclose specific specifications.

Also - the millions of colors claim was probably unique to Apple - not sure that any other manufacturer would have the audacity to make that claim about a 6-bit panel.


---
If you REALLY want an 8-bit screen, you should note that Sony specifically advertises the TT as having an 8-bit screen as well as 100% NTSC gamut. Of course, even smaller screen in a less powerful package.

Also, FWIW, I like the Z apart from its price

 

I actually have looked at dozens of laptops and there were at least two that claimed "millions" of colors and one that said 16.7 million but it was phrased vague enough that it could have meant either the graphics card or possibly an external monitor instead of the laptop display. Don't recall exactly which ones.

Apple is hit and miss for screens too -- I wasn't much impressed with the new regular macbook though with the lack of firewire (an Apple devised interface) it wasn't in the running anyway.

I did look at the TT and it is very cute but way, way too small for nearly 50 year old eyes. The tablet pc's generaly have better displays too but they are either very expensive or pretty small.

Doug

 

oh yes. The new mb's take away from apple's "good screen" reputation.

I recommend the Z for you

 

I guess I'm pretty much there.

I had hoped Dell would discount the price of the M4400 through one of the continuous sales but I don't think that's going to happen -- too busy hawking the cheapie laptops. They would need at least 20% off to get me to order.

For my original specs the Z555 would meet or exceed everything but price. Only 2 demo models left in town and according to the sony store sales guy the newer Z620 is going to be $300 bucks more for very little gain so I guess I better start the arm stretching exercises so I can reach my wallet before the demos are gone.

I just know that something expensive is going to break right after I buy the Z or dell will go 35% off or something.

Thanks again, all
Doug

 

*cheer*

 

Thanks Xand.

One of the stores that had a demo still had new stock at another location so I'll have a Z555 by Friday.

The search is over. Started last June when the only thing I found that was close to what I wanted was the MBP. Resisted the iHorde then and managed to keep my resolve even when the model I liked (15" matte screen LED) went on a relative clearance for the new model. Thought I found something from Lenovo that subsequently vaporized in favor of the Dell. I guess Lenovo used to use decent LCD's but no more. Dell always on 50% clearance when you don't want one, nothing now and the M4400 is rather mediocre compared head to head against the Z for everything but video card and I'm not much of a gamer anymore. If I preferred a 15" over 13 I'd probably go for the dell.

At any rate if any Canadians are looking for a preconfigured Z555 London Drugs has some new stock at various locations for 2K. It's a little cheaper than existing CTO configurations (albeit with the bilingual keybd) and is supposed to be around $300 cheaper than the slightly enhanced newer models.

Thanks
Doug

 

All I can say is wow.

I've been using it for most of the day and the screen really is fantastic. Very sharp, excellent brightness and color (even right out of the box).

It's like the MBP shrunk to the size of the Air but with a DVD RW, firewire, express port, multiple USB, SD reader, vga & hdmi (no adapters!) and no iSmug.

The keyboard really sucks though -- the \\\\\\ key between the Z and shift is the most annoying thing I've seen and though I was aware of it I didn't realize how annoying it is. There, I just hit it twice. Does everyone outside of North America have to put up with this nonsense? I do wish Sony had put forth a little bit of effort in Canada for the preconfigured machines and offered both the standard english keyboard and something for the francophones.

Thanks for the help in this thread and on the forum in general......
Doug