The Official Haswell/Z Speculation Thread

I'm not an expert but if you have the quad SVZ I think that would be able to get a lot more done than the dual-core Pro (if you're doing things like video editing).

 

Depending on the scenario, I can have up to 12 VMs running at any given point. WHen I put the 1TB OCZ in the J10 I thought I'd be down to a one box solution. I was wrong.

 

I would wholeheartedly disagree with you here. First, the video was about the use of carbon fibre, of which the X505 was the first Sony to use it. The X505 was a marvel then and IMO, still is now. Who cares if it had a Pentium 1.0 or 1.1 ULV; it was a premium machine. I always lusted after that one but could never pull the trigger (it was $3k+). I had two Gs (the G was one of the first with an SSD; my first one I think had a whopping 32GB; only reason I got the G2 was for the bigger storage at 64GB). To this day it remains arguably my second favorite laptop after the U70P. It was really a marvel of weight and technology - great business class machine that rivaled Panasonic in build quality. If they truly made a modern G, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. So they were trumping up the quality and premium.

I'll be honest with you. I owned an SZ (SZ90) and a VGN-Z90 (the Z1 everywhere but Japan) - I wasn't very impressed vs. the G. Sure, they had more power and I wrote one of my books on the SZ. But they didn't feel premium like the laptops they listed in that video. Those T series were really great machines, too. Yes, they used ULV chips. Who cares. Those were road warrior machines.

I fully expect as someone who is on the road a lot ot see quite a few Pro 11s and 13s. Feel free to disagree with me - won't ruffle my feathers any. I spent nearly 110,000 miles on the road last year so I've seen quite a bit of what people carry and use. The Sony T series as well as Panasonic's R series were legendary on the road. I remember people moaning when Sony finally discontinued what I will call the classic T line a few years back. When Panasonic replaced the R with the J, and now the J is gone, both Sony and Panasonic really have gotten away from small and light to a degree. With the Pro 11, Sony's back. Now, I may have issues with ports or even some specs, but I respect what they've done here. That Pro 11 is the perfect road companion if you're not doing heavy lifting.

Look back a page or two at the post I put with links to graphics - Sony's vision for the near future is posted there clear as day.

 

So every day on my Z1 I pretty much do Firefox, Photoshop, and have VLC playing a video via HDMI (well, I used to anyway before my nVidia died). But there are often periods of time where I'm working on editing an HD film for several week spurts in either Avid or Premiere. I don't really have too many issues with editing on this Z1, although sometimes the video can be a little jumpy (and video outputting does take a long time). So should I just go for a quad SVZ and take advantage of the two extra cores (although I won't be doing video editing every day usually) or should I go with something like the Pro since it'll probably be fine for my everyday tasks (and then hope it'll be able to edit fine)? My concern with going with the Pro is that it will perform even worse than the Z1 when it comes to video editing. Do I need to wait for more benchmarks to figure all of this out or can someone generally answer my questions based on the numbers we have now? Editing in Premiere/Avid on a dual core ULV processor doesn't sound like a good idea to me, but maybe my idea of an ULV processor is outdated?

EDIT: And I mean, does it really hurt to get the quad SVZ over the Pro? Are there any disadvantages besides the slightly heavier weight and shorter battery time? (And no touchscreen / NFC.)

 

While it's not HD video per se, I do a lot of video editing in Camasia on the Duo 11. It's just fine speed wise. I think at this point you've gotten enough out of 60+ pages to make a decision. Will the Pro 13 be slower? MAybe. I can tell you that the older i5 full processor from 2010 on the Panasonic S9 was slower for rendering in Camtasia than the i7 in my Duo 11. Take that for what it's worth - just my experience. The old ULVs were painful when editing and rendering in Camtasia. Of course there are other bottlenecks - I/O being one. With the new PCI SSD in the Pro 13, that really won't be an issue (or shouldn't be).

I also use Lightroom and Audition with no issues on the Duo 11.

 

No I haven't! The first 50 pages was "are we getting a new Z?" Then the answer was "Yes, sorta" - the Pro. Now I'm asking how the Pro stacks up to the SVZ, the last great Sony model. And I haven't seen any straight answers from anyone. I'm not sure if it's because we don't have enough numbers or what.

 

Numbers really only tell part of the story. I think you have enough anecdotal evidence by what both I and others have said that the ULV should be fine. Will it be slower than the SVZ? Maybe, maybe not. Numbers alone won't bear that out. On paper the Duo 11 should be crap at rendering video. It's not. Everyone's needs are different to a degree, and what annoys one person won't annoy another (example: no built in ethernet). If you're waiting for the cows to come home (and it seems you are based on how you keep asking the same freakin' question in different ways), until the machine is in the hands of people (and I doubt you will be an early adopter to tell your experiences), we won't know how it is in real life in real world situations. And even then after a few days, you won't really know. It takes a few months to settle in with a machine and get past the honeymoon phase. You get an inkling early on if it will work, but you can never be sure. So at a minimum you're probably looking at mid-July for any volume of real reports from users that are posted.

So buy it. Or don't. Maybe you can blaze the trail and buy one and see if it will work for your situation.

 

Maybe you should wait until other people have actually bought it. Then they should be able to give you a more solid answer about its capabilities.

 

Sony has a 30 day return policy. You could buy it, test it out for 20-25 days and if you're unsatisfied send it back. It's unfortunate they've discontinued the Z and I don't understand how 5 mm and half a kilo extra is that bad for people to carry around.

 

Clearly a machine as thin and light as the Pro is a ridiculous choice for the kind of work you want to do on it. There's reports of the Pro getting quite toasty when doing basic tasks so I can't imagine the noise and heat when under load.

Have you thought about looking at the refreshed MacBook Pro w/Retina? That will be announced soon and will include a full voltage CPU in one slim & tidy package. Apple actually do their homework on the innards so cooling on the first generation Retina Pro's was great so there's no reason why it won't be on the second gen.

 

Isn't the retina a 15 inch and much heavier and pricier than what he's been considering? He could go with the Razer Blade with better specs if that was an option. Plus, not to say it doesn't perform well but the so called "retina" display eats unnecessarily into the horse power of the machine. Imo 1080p is good enough on notebooks for now. Also everything heats up under certain conditions. And I've found OSX to be horrible with certain encodings...

 

How to Fix a bloated MacBook battery easy and at no cost - YouTube

Yeah, Apple has a stellar record. My friend has a Macbook whose case got distorted due to a bloated battery. Never saw that on any Vaio ever.

 

You need to take a logic class my friend.

 

Pro looks interesting but I think I am going to wait on more info on the Aspire S7 or the Samsung Series 9 refresh.

If someone is able to shoehorn the Full Powered Haswell with the 5200 Iris Graphics into an "ultrabook" form factor I think that would be ideal.

Problem is after so many successions of Zs (and their forebearers) I am so spoiled on weight that I don't think I could go much over 3 pounds again.

 

The ASUS Zenbook Infinity will have the Iris 5100 graphics in it.

That's worth the look if you are thinking of getting the VAIO Pro.

 

I'm looking at the S series and it's 910 euro's (with student discount) with an i5, 4GB DDR, 500HDD, intel graphics. I'm getting screwed a bit since I can find these configs at 500 euro's but I can't find a nice 1080p at less than 1.1K euro's. Is it worth it considering it will be discontinued or should I wait until I'll have more money?

 

Now we need a kickstarter project for custom made power and portable laptops for pros.
I would start from trying to put that 14" IGZO UHD panel from Fujitsu into one of 14" monster laptops with dGPU, Gigabyte U24F for example.
That would be awesome of they fit

 

Er, no. The point (didn't think I needed to spell it out) is that Apple is not perfect when it comes to HW and design. They've had issues, including ghosting IPS panels. Sony has had issues as well. But since none of us here have handled the Pro and don't know first hand, it's judging by speculation. But to make a sweeping statement that Apple actually does their homework like they're the only ones is pretty laughable. Sony has been making premium laptops or awhile.

 

Infinity looks interesting (glass case aside) but not released til 4Q I believe ;(

 

if this is Sony vaio Z replacement then the only word to describe it is absolute FAIL

 

Hi, guys.

Additional battery for Pro: VGP-BPSE38.
Weight: 290 g.
Capacity: 4690 mAh or 36 Wh;
7.5 V.

LAN-WiFi adapter looks like a bundle for VGN-P in 2009, which is attached to AC brick:
VGP-WAR100

Quotes from the review in The Verge:

And about Pro's build quality:

 

Isn't the Pro capped at 4GB Ram max (at least in UK and HK atm)? That alone means that it's no where near to be a Z replacement...

 

That seems to be the case for the UK it seems and poland checking now, maybe it is a euro thing?

 

i called sellers from sony.fr (i am french) and they told me the sony pro 13 will have 12GB RAM MAX.
And FYI you can see the Fit series with customizations atm (fun and bug fact : you can get 2 more (so 4 in total) warranties years for ... 0.01 €)

 

Interesting, I hope that's true. Either way, we have less than 3 days before we find out if it does truly go live for sale on the 9th.

 

If true, the Pro 13 is all but a purchase for me.

 

Yeah, but Q4 starts in July and ends in September.

 

If you look at most of the other reviews, they are very positive about the Pro. I've seen one or two negative reviews (the Verge is one), but in the main, most people love it.

 

No, Q4 CY13 is Oct - Dec. Q3 is July - Sept.

 

it would seem that Sony have abandoned the power user even though the misleading abbreviation of PRO.

I hope this is not the vaio z replacement, because its terrible for the power user that needs max power and max mobility. This is just a
ultra book, which Sony was lacking form its range, but why remove the Z is baffling since it had very strong sales.

I am certainly interested in the pro 11 but also need a much larger laptop for working with much more power and mobility in th 13"-14" range.

Really hope sony release a TRUE vaio Z replacement.

 

Are you talking about the 15.5" S or the 13.3? Let's put it this way: 1.1K Euro is too high for either S configured as you describe. It's a bad deal for the S15, a terrible one for the S13. I feel fairly high confidence that all the Ivy Bridge models will see very deep discounting before the inventory is cleaned out. Seems to me that Computex has rendered all non-Ultrabook, non-Haswell notebooks as dinosaurs that no one will want. I personally am not yet swayed that, even at equivalent performance, the new Haswell ULV/HD5000 machines are a better bet than the "old" Std Voltage Ivy Bridge/nVidia 640 models given that the IB models (getting really tired of both spelling these out!) also allow for user-replaceable RAM up to 16GB and use-upgradeable HDD/SSDs, even dual storage by removing the S models' DVD drive. In essence, the S's seem to be the last of a dying breed of notebooks, at least for now. The industry wants us to have computers that are pancake-flat and weigh 2-2.5 lbs and get 10 hrs battery life without a sheet battery. The tradeoffs are: 1) no expansion flexibiliity - you get it how you buy it and that includes RAM and storage (note: you can easily have 1TB SSD, HDD or combo in the Sony S's and you can buy it incrementally as you need it and as prices fall and you can buy the most cost effective SSDs, 2.5" models, and have much faster R/W times for the $; 2) ULVs and Intel IGP for graphics and, for now, dual core only - remains to be seen how Haswell dual core i7 and HD5000 compare to IB quad core and Kepler 640M d-gpu; 3) it will cost you a sizable premium to buy the equivalent computing power in the new gen. of Haswell Ultrabooks vs. the generation of the Sony SVS models, especially in the next 3-6 months, when there will be some great close-outs on the S models and no discounting in sight for the new "PROs" and their like.

I think you have perfectly nailed it! These new ultrabooks have a lot going for them, but power, flexibility and cost-effectiveness are not among their attributes. I imagine they are more than powerful enough for the vast majority of even people who were Z buyers in the past, but I seriously doubt this gen. of them will outperform even the SVS line. True power users who still want reasonable portability (3.5-4.5 lbs were more than doable for us a couple of years ago, particularly those who couldn't afford decked out Z's but needed reasonable power) will have to hope Sony decides the Z segment is big enough to address (the one point of yours I'm not sure I buy) or that someone else decides to address the segment. Hate to say it, but MBP-r and Asus UX5xx are probably the high budget power user's best options now (though for now a close-out, refurb or eBay'd quad core S15 will get nearly the same computing power at half the price). As a charter Apple-hater, it's just not an option for me, but if you need to do heavy duty work and can somehow manage to sometimes travel with a massive, 4.5 lb notebook (tongue-in-cheek) I don't know what other option you will have once the S inventory is gone.

Again, I personally think this is, and has always been, a relatively small slice of even the Z buyer market. Once the Z lost it's screen quality and weight advantage (ie, when the current Asus Zenbooks and Samsung Series 9s came on the market) I'm pretty sure Sony found a substantial portion of Z buyers flocked to these comparatively anemic but "executive caliber," light as a feather, FHD IPS screen-equipped Ultrabooks for 60% of the price of a well equipped SVZ. Sure, they only had 4GB RAM, a ULV cpu and 256GB SSD, but I always had the suspicion the Z market was primarily about, in this order, the screen, the speed (but not power, I'm talking RAID-0 SSDs, etc) and the prestige. Seems like Sony has decided to run on that assumption and is just using brand cache and superior engineering to offer a more compelling executive Ultrabook than the executive Ultrabooks made by Samsung and Asus.

Thoughts?

 

The "industry" or the "mass market"?

I'm guessing that it is consumer demand that is driving this trend, with some urging from the industry. Apple was very successful with the MacBook Air, and that's not because consumers had no choice. It's because lots of people like what they saw.

Agree 100%

For those that want powerful machines, and are willing to carry 2kgs around, then there's Alienware, Razor etc. out there (well, those are for gaming, but I'm sure there are other smaller vendors catering to different niches). Sony was selling $4K machines (well, that's what I paid in Australia and Singapore) to well heeled execs etc. (plus some high end users who wanted light weight). I think the well heeled exec market is bigger than the "high-end user market with $4K to spend", so that's where they're heading with the Pro. They're not going to make the Pro a high-end machine, because the "well heeled exec" market is going to go buy a MBA, or Samsung or Asus instead.

 

Can we get a Tl;dr?

 

I don't know where you've been, but Sony hasn't had easily user upgradeable laptops since, well, forever. If you were lucky, maybe the memory. Most Sonys in recent memory (and I go back to the U70P) to change th HD was always challenging even if you didn't care about voiding your warranty. Sony's top end premium computers haven't supported things like 16GB as I've said before - the beloved SVZ-13 with the quad core didn't. The last Sony machine that had a lot of that flexibility was the T series years ago where you could have two drives and 8GB of memory. You also paid for that privilege, too.

I also don't understand your cost effectiveness comment. 4.5lbs was never really doable for me. My max weight is 4lbs. 2.5 - 3 has always been my needed weight. I always sacrificed some power (in my mind, that equates to drive and memory, NOT processor; ULV can still run VMs - I/O and storage have always been my bottleneck). The T series (clasic, not the new) had specs like the Pro and cost easily 2 - 3x in some cases what the Pros will come in at. So we've gained a lot.

I would also disagree - some of the Lenovo machines outside of maybe some screens on some have some of the best expandability and options for power users. I don't love Thinkpads, but for example, you can get an X230 with SSD and 16GB of memory for pretty low money. Sure, the screen kinda sucks, but whatever. I all depends on what you're trying to get done.

And as I've said, the ULVs of today are not like the ones I had in the U70P, the G, etc. They're pretty capable. Sure, if you're doing intense video work it may not be for you, but again ... different strokes.

 

Well said. I guess what I meant by "the industry" pushing the Ultrabook "forumua" is really Intel and, to a lesser extent, Microsoft telling us this is what we want by making it unattractive for manufacturers to spend design and marketing $ on anything but UBs. I don't know what the marketing subsidy is for Ultrabooks, or even if it's just that the Intel/MS marketing collossus that is making it pretty hard for anyone seeking to serve what used to be the "ultraportable"/thin-light consumer to not play by Intel's rules, which dictate the aforementioned "pancakes" which, I admit, are generally pretty appealing for all but true power users. But still I don't think the success of the MBA is big enough to directly drive this "trend," but rather Intel's and MS's fears that they will be left alone at the dance floor when everyone else is paired up with an MBA or an ARM-based tablet/hybrid/gizmo that doesn't use Intel or MS product that they are using their implied muscle to jam the standard on the majority of products. The volume of sales of MBA's alone was/is not high enough be seen as a read on consumer demand as much as a placeholder for the laptop side of the MBA/ARM panic attack that led to a very narrow (some might say "focused") strategy to fight the monsters with a one-size-fits-all product definition. The Ultrabook "standard" is the reason that the people on this thread are expressing discontent: it doesn't leave much choice in the mkt. It's almost as if Google was so freaked out about iOS that they made Android as restrictive in the design of smartphones and tablets as Intel has made the design of the product segments f/k/a ultraportable and thin and light - i.e., the Ultrabook straightjacket. Methinks Android would not have been nearly so successful had Google chosen to limit what an Android product could be.

Sure, notebook makers don't have to comply with the UB standard, but it seems like that will be riskier and riskier to invest in otherwise superb 3.5-4.5 lb, non-touch screen notebooks that really take full advantage of Haswell architecture (and not just the dual core ULVs), and abundance of cheap high-end displays, etc, but with enough breathing room to accommodate "grown up" ports, usable keyboards, game-playing, video-editing products that are - please whisper this: COMPUTERS! (oops. I accidentally shouted it!) Remember computers? I thought they were really cool and I still do. I love ultrabooks and smartphones - not so much tablets - but they don't reduce my fervent desire for a powerful, working person's computer, that I can use anywhere for anything, all in what I still consider a small, light single unit.. I guess I'm talking about the DTR of this generation of hardware, which only needs a 13-14" IPS/IGZO screen and 3.5-4.5 lbs to achieve what the 16-18" 7 lb behemoths of 2009-2011 could do. Remember when we used to refer to the Z1 as a 3 lb DTR?

Ok, sorry for the long rant. I think someone is annoyed by my verbosity...

...like him

 

Actually, the SVS 13 and 15 were completely user upgradeablle to 16GB, up to two 2.5" drives on any size, form or speed, ports galore and nearly the best mobile cpus money could buy, decent gpus too. True that the Z1 was the last Z that was fully user upgradeable (then 8GB was considered enough and we all knew we had a DVD bay to hold a second SSD of unlimited proportion. These were DTRs under 4.4 lbs, the Z1 was only 3 lbs. We hated Sony for not putting a decent screen on the S13 but at least they kept the ultraportable DTR user well fed with the S15 and S13 when they "lost their way" with the Z2. It's all chronicled in these pages - the forum, not the thread. It's only in mid-2013 that they seem to have decided to abandon this market segment - not exactly "forever" ago.

 

I think you can still find these, depending on what you're use-case is: some Dell Latitudes, Dell Precision, HP Elitebook, some Lenovo Thinkpads, plus the Tier 2 brands (Alienware, Razor. Clevo etc). You can get the "grown-up ports", and smart card readers, and finger print readers, and real docking stations etc. The market for really light, really high end laptops is probably too small for a Tier 1 to supply though: the profit pool is probably going to be too low to get over the internal IRR hurdles

 

Yes, I'm afraid you are right. The thing is, the business machines almost always have lousy screens, unless you pay HP $1,000 for a "dreamcolor" screen that is barely better than the 85% Adobe RGB on Asus and Samsung computers that barely cost more than $1,000. But of course, they don't have standard voltage cpus, d-gpus, 16GB RAM or "grown up ports." It's a circular argument. The Z1 was, and remains, the anomaly: it had it all and was 3 lbs in 2010. But truly the S line filled the bill quite nicely at the 15" class, and would have in the 13" class but for the terrible screen Sony would never upgrade - so it could keep selling Z2s and Z3s for double the price, when a screen upgrade to the 2013 SVS13 would have added $100 to the cost.

Excuse me, I have a beer to go cry in...

 

I thought I heard Intel was the one forcing all these rules onto laptop makers now (slim, lightweight, touchscreen). Is that true? Maybe they're afraid of Apple taking over the world with their tablets and this whole new tablet trend, so they're forcing PC makers to make these slim laptops that are technically more powerful than a tablet so consumers second-guess buying a low-powered tablet. I also thought I heard a rumor Apple was trying to make their own processors, which would mean Intel is feeling even more threatened and that's why their pushing the sort of "laptop-tablet" trend on to companies like Sony (plus, not to mention, it's what most consumers want - lightweight computers).

As many have said, it seems our kind is a dying breed! I don't know much about processors, but maybe these ULV ones will get even faster in the years to come so that they match the full voltage processors of today. I mean, the fact that the Pro is using an ULV processor that seems to be about equal or equal or slightly more powerful than the Z1's full voltage one seems to attest to that. So maybe in three years we'll be back to beating the SVZ. Maybe this generation is a step back for the time being. IDK though.

BTW if anyone has an SVZ they want to sell, I'm right here!

 

The SVS13 is max 12GB since 4GB is soldered onto the motherboard. And 15 != portable. The SVS13 is too heavy for its meager battery life. 4.4lbs is more than I'd ever carry. So not a premium machine, limited upgradeability - not unlimited.

 

I don't know if anyone has already mentioned it before... The Pro is made in China, The Duo 13 is still made in Japan. That makes me questioning if the Pro is really the next Z...

 

Agree with everything you guys said, lovelaptops and AnonymousCoward. My guess is all of us here who are disgruntled happen to be part of the "high-end user market with $4K to spend" niche.

What amazes me is that no one is now trying to make money off of us. I mean how hard could it be? Something like the Razer Blade 14" could easily be redesigned to go down to 13", lose half a pound, add an IPS screen and take the GPU down to 740m. Charge $3.5K for it: that is a lot of profit.

So here I am sitting with some significant change to dump on such a beast, and no one, literally no one is taking my money.

 

The Z never had strong sales, that's why it's scrapped. If it was reasonably profitable, don't you think Sony would still be making a modern Z variant? With the Pro I think Sony is quite clearly chasing the consumer who is looking to buy a premium Ultraportable machine. The Pro is most definitely Sony's answer to the MacBook Air. Sony are even quoted as saying so!

If you are waiting for Sony to produce a new Z series, then forget about it. You are not going to get one.

Perhaps once Sony have a few years of profitability under them they may revisit the Z series, but I don't see the point. They should try to compete with Apple for the lucrative premium Ultraportable market.

 

Well i feel the updated apples will have a higher end integrated GPU, so if the Sony's are stuck at 4400, it will already be behind the apples.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The model is the 15.5" S series and it costs 910 euros with the student discount and comes with an i5-3230M, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD 7200rpm and Intel Graphics (I have no need for a dedicated graphics card). I'm only considering it because of the nice 1080p display, otherwise I could find a notebook at the same specs for literally 500 euro's but with a display resolution of 768p which I loath immensely. I've search and the lowest price of a notebook with a 1080p display that isn't the vaio S is around 1100 euros. Of course these come with a quad core, 8GB RAM, ~1TB HDD (no SSD) and nvidia graphics. I know the Vaio at that price is almost a ripoff but the problem is I want to spend as little as possible for a 1080p and with my uses an i5 with 8GB+ RAM is sufficient.


PS: Just talked to a rep and he confirmed that the S series will be discontinued. The same goes for the Z series. For those wondering the prices for the Pro and Duo will be available on Monday (this is Sony Europe).

 

I used to work for HP (not in PSG though, but in ES). But I can assure you that with the overheads a company like HP has, the margins are very low. PSG made about a 4% return, which is probably below the cost of capital, It's one reason why Leo was thinking of ditching the unit (undone by his poor execution).

 

I want to see what Samsung has up their sleeves...

 

Not sure about the easily redesignable part, but I'd seriously consider swapping out the screen for a 13.1" VAIO Z screen. If the interface is standard, and the cable connector is on the left, it might be possible.

 

And this is the problem in a nutshell - a race to the bottom for price. It's a no win situation if you want a premium product. You can't want the sun, moon, and stars for next to nothing (so-to-speak). Sure, you can want, but it's not happening. At the end of the day Sony, HP, Toshiba, Samsung, et al., are in the business of making money, not catering to what would ostensibly make up 1 - 3% of the market. Sometimes they'll take a risk, but most times, not.

 

I kind of thought that's what you meant. On this side of the pond the S15 config has sold for as low as $799 with an i7 quad. I haven't checked recently but would expect an i5/HD4000 unit to be sold by the closeout shop (there are numerous ones here) for $699 or less. Unless virtually all the inventory is sold out I would think it will go down by €100-200 at some non-Sony etailers in the EU - or don't such stores exist there? I think your market is very different than ours and probably quite different in different EU countries so I hesitate to speak with conviction about what you should pay. If you are not in a hurry I would expect there to be Haswell ULV ultrabooks with 15" IPS screens for about the same €900 area as your Sony and such a machine would have roughly similar cpu performance but better IGP and much better battery life. But at that price it will likely have 4GB non-upgradable RAM and a 128gb SSD that may or may not be upgradable. Personally I'd still probably go with your S opportunity because both RAM and SSD are upgradable fairly cheaply. Check out whether anyone is sellin closeout S15s before you pay €915 for it.

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