The Official Haswell/Z Speculation Thread

Why have all the CTO prices gone up since yesterday? This is ridiculous.

Edit: I just spoke to a Rep, apparently all the CTO prices yesterday were incorrect.

 

You don't understand that the Pro is the New Z.

Sony dropped the Z. Might be that Sony realizes that the growth in premium-priced notebooks comes from form factor and not overkill performance. If you look up to the sky and its blue and cloudless, you don't need to be told that its not raining.

If the goal here is to talk for the next two years about what you want and cannot have, let's shift the conversation to Kate Upton because then we'd get some nice photos amidst the whining.

BJ

 

Or maybe it was rather Intel who made it very clear. Spend big $$$ on their ultrabook campaign so it's not worth it for the manufacturer to come up with their own ideas anymore.

 

Bingo! The most clear-cut statement made during the week since the Pro presentation. But we will see the second part of Intel Haswell story about mobile M and HQ chips soon. That will be the story of more flexible approach.

 

Very possible.

The industry as a whole was thrown a grenade when the iPad was released and after treading water for two years they're finally fighting back. Hopefully the thinner/lighter strategy works and thus better versions with more horsepower can follow. It's called the "Pro" series, not the "Ultra" series, seems to, imply that this is their flagship notebook subbrand.

BJ

 

What you said is quite contradicting. That, Pro IS the new Z and Sony dropped the Z.

Oh, and there is no such thing as overkill. I always wanted more from my Z1, Z2 and SVZ.

The Pro might just be the TZ TT successor and the real Z successor mgiht just be around the corner, no one knows. Yes, surely the Pro will sell better than the Z, for obvious reasons (pricing for one). And with all due respect, while I'm sure you are a rich businessman that is willing to spend $1200 but not $2000 on a notebook you use 20 out of 365 days (as you put it in previous posts), you have to realize that there are people who are willing to spend more than that. There are many rich people out there that sees $1200 and $2000 as the same price tag. It doesn't concern them. And then there are fanboys who are willing to pay the price as well.

The Z has never been meant to be the profit generator for the VAIO line, at least not directly. I'm quite certain the Pro is not the Z successor and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Either the Z is dropped for good, or that the Z successor is yet to come.

 

Goog discussion leads to good guesses. Bingo #2. The field for Ultimate-ultra-xtreme meneuvering is there. Yet one should not expect too much, being attached to 13" in particular.

 

No it's not. It lacks a whole lotta ports and business features. It' just another bloody ultrabook - a damn good one though.

The TT btw was discontinued because it hasn't sold. Not meant for the masses, but for me a master piece of design at that time. I'm still struggling to find an adequate replacement. While I'd be fine with ULV I need business features which ultrabooks lack thereof. Let alone the infesting of glossy touch screens. I'm pretty disappointed that the whole industry seems to have been dictated to turn its back on professional ultra thins.

Yep, maybe the masses are blinded by the iPad

I see this thread is about th Z not the TT, well pretty much the same story though

[/rant]

 

Seriously, I already told you to stop telling us we "don't understand." Unless you work for sony and have some kind of inside information we understand just as well as you. We all understand that Sony discontinued the Z and then released this Pro intended to be a successor/replacement (as evidenced by the strikingly similar design). However, it is clearly a completely different class of machine, and even you should be able to see that. Just because a company intends their new product to replace and be a successor to their old product doesn't mean the customers will agree or want the new one (remember New Coke?) It is blatantly obvious that the Pro is intended to be a completely different class of machine than the Z, which is fine, but it does not meet my needs. For the third time, I'm glad it does meet yours but the rest of us are going to have to find something else.

Are you talking about just regular powerful desktop replacement computers in general, or ultraportable ones specifically? There are plenty of really powerful computers out there but they weigh 6, 7, 8 or more pounds, are more than an inch thick, etc. If I just wanted a straight-up powerful notebook I'd buy a sager or a clevo. There is nothing particularly special about 13" (look at the 15" SS9 which is a great machine at 3.5 pounds, .59" thick) but the portability is key for me, and the vast majority of >14" computers are not particularly portable.

 

the new Razor Blade?

 

boltjames (et. al.) - just another datapoint in this discussion:

I'm a software developer, and need a pretty powerful machine to do my work on, as I'm working on a full server stack (web server, app server, database, IDE's, VM's, all running at the same time, sometimes some thick clients, etc.).

The more cores running as fast as possible, and the fastest disk access, and the more memory, the better.

At work I have a pretty powerful desktop machine.

However, I am away from the office - at home, or in other countries - from time to time, and definitely for a long time while on vacation (though I do some work while away). I can remote desktop into work, though bandwidth is a limiting factor when in a place that doesn't have good connectivity. When remoting in, I don't need a superpowerful computer, just one that has good networking and graphics.

However, often I'll need to work completely separated from my work environment. In that case, I need something like the desktop machine at work. Since I prefer to travel pretty light, the closest I can get to that desktop environment in the smallest and lightest possible package, the better (to some degree - the screen has to be readable ).

Last year I bought the Z1311, because it was the only machine I found on the market at the time that provided everything I wanted (tho' 16g of ram would have been REALLY nice). I took it to Europe with me for a month, and it worked wonderfully - it even beat the performance of my desktop machine at work (company-assigned) quite a lot of the time.

For work like I do, I need that raw power and speed. Granted, not everybody needs it - my usage patterns are probably statistical outliers, and Sony and other laptop manufacturers don't find much of a money-maker in my market. But I can tell you I was pretty overjoyed to find the Z1311, and I really hope that Sony or other manufacturers decide to keep producing machines like it with the latest, fastest hardware and beefy specs. It definitely makes MY life a LOT easier.

- Tim

 

I used to have a max-spec TT and I really love it before I moved on to the Z series. Admittedly the Pro seems not to be as well-built as the TT, but I suppose it's more suitable to say it's a TT successor wanna-be, or even the X for 11inch model, rather than the Z.

 

Ah, how deliciously cryptic! So is "pro" to be a subset of the Vaio line and not just a single model? Or will there simply be a Pro 15?

 

Good post, and I'd agree- a big company like Sony on a sku-reduction kick would indeed view your case as an 'outlier' situation, not enough mega-power users such as yourself to make the business case for a workstation-class slim/light notebook unfortunately.

BJ

 

What you don't understand is that the Z was launched when the economy was booming and excess was all the rage.

We were collecting wine, stocking up on cigars, playing golf, traveling first class, Sony was releasing scores of new products, trying its MP3 players and its music store, MiniDisc was still being pushed, digital cameras were crushing, Playstation was hot, car stereo was still a meaningful business, and this new HDTV thing was about to explode. The iPhone swallowed all that up, the iPad crippled every notebook maker, and the HDTV revolution came and went. Sony is in lock-down mode now, narrowing categories and assortments, trying to release popular mass products to regain market share.

I go through these same growing pain discussions in the BMW forums. There are a handful of people who don't like the fact that the 3 Series is bigger and softer and they complain endlessly about what used to be instead of how it is. Baby boomers are in their 50's and 60's now, don't want such a small/tight car, BMW is doing what is right for business and leaving some hardcore enthusiasts behind. Sony, same thing.

BJ

 

Well, I cancelled my Pro 13 order. Despite still showing an estimated ship date of 6/10, I was told that it wouldn't ship any earlier than 6/25.

Not worth waiting that long just to turn around and ship it back when it shows up.

Now I'll be waiting on the Zenbook Infinity or Acer S7...

Sorry Sony, you've lost my business.

 

I guess most of us following this thread are the "outliers". The Z was the flagship, the laptop that everybody wanted to buy if he/she could afford it, this is what most of the reviewers were commenting.

Lets consider the equivalent of a car company, for example Audi. It offers the R8, a niche supercar, but they offer it for the brand image.

Imagine that Audi decides to replace the R8, the supercar with a cheaper more ordinary variant like the TT, a better TT but still not the R8.

All the R8 fans and owners will not appreciate. There will be a gap in the offering. And though businesswise the TT will outsell and make more money than the R8, all the fans of the R8 will move to another company like Ferrari or Porsche.

So all the Z fans and owners here like to discuss about the future of the Z line and don't care if it makes economic sense for Sony to ditch the product.

The Pro is an ultrabook, not a serious Z replacement, the way the TT cannot be an R8 supercar replacement.
(I apologise if the car comparison is not pertinent for you)

 

Does the zenbook even have an expected release date? According to anandtech, it seems it might be closer to the launch of windows 8.1

AnandTech | ASUS Zenbook Infinity: Hands On with the Most Beautiful Notebook at Computex

 

You and I fall in the same category, except for me nicer processor is a 'nice to have' but memory is king. I need light, fast, and powerful machines. I've always had to make tradeoffs. The Panasonic S/SX, N/NX, and J series are as close as I've come, but the only thing holding me back from ordering a new NX2 right now because it uses SATA II. That's partially what drove me away from the J10 even though it was 10" with 1TB of OCZ SSD (which I put in) and 16GB of RAM. The speed of I/O in the Duo 11 and its USB 3.0 (which are full bandwidth and not gated, unlike the structure on the Panasonic) is amazing.

Since Haswell mobile processors don't support SLAT, that's huge for me so I'm really in a bind. As posted, I bought the Samsung Series 7 Ultra but its keyboard is hurting my hands so it's going to go back. I write books and that won't fly despite it supporting 16GB and putting the MUshkin in.

The only real alternatives in the 4lb or under category IMO that are serviceable are the Lenovo T430s or T431s, but they're 14". The Sony stores and outlets are closing out the SVS13 with the 12GB/512GB combo - but I'm not sure about that one. Something like an X230 could work but 1366x768. What using the Samsung has taught me is that 13.3" is almost too big for me.

So I know what I want. No one really makes it, or makes it without severe compromises. Most of us on this thread who have unique power consumption uses for a notebook that is small, light, and powerful are outliers. At the end of the day, it's going to boil down to what compromises are we willing to make? I know mine aren't memory, I/O, and weight.

 

Me too, and there are lots and lots like us. Some people here just have a too narrow field of view to realize it.

Perhaps it's time to stop feeding the troll?

 

He isn't trolling, he's merely making a case from the bean-counter point of view, which is unfortunately the way the real world works. The Z was always a niche product, and maybe in 2013 that niche is too small for a company the size of Sony to bother serving it. Maybe it's a niche better left to smaller manufacturers or even white-label builders like Clevo.

Nice analogy. Hell, I'm still mourning the E30...

 

A decent successor to the 15" S with a good hi-res screen and <2kg would be nice!

 

I was very close getting one of the last stock, but didn't wanna switch back to TN panels (main reason). At least its good to see that IPS FHD is now standard.

All those mentioned series had their own special characteristics, which sadly are all gone.
The only series I could think of it being a true successor is the 13" T series - which is still available lol

 

Personally I think that the new series Pro are successor for X series
Sony has reserved Z label for phone / tablets that are considered flagship model.

I believe there might be a release of new Z when thunderbolt 2 is out, which is towards the end of the year.
Otherwise, there is a very unlikely chance of it being released

 

The Z has just been discontinued, they're not bringing it back for years.

Sony does 90% of its business because of retail stores, actual sales + showrooming, and the Best Buy's of the world just punted the shelf space the Z was occupying and committed it to the Pro 13 which has just been released after years of development and investment. Sony has paid out millions of dollars in markdown funds in the past year to get all that Z inventory out of retail to open the space for the Pro, no retailer wants to hear any Z talk and Sony wouldn't dare distract from the new Pro series on which a lot of the VAIO future rides. Sony isn't Apple, can't control its retail strategy or its supply chain, it does what their retailers want them to do. Whether it was 2011 or 2012, retailers made it clear that they were cutting back notebook investment space, that Sony was at risk of losing 2-3 placements, and that the Z was their worst seller. That's how it went down. That's how it goes down for every consumer electronic product that doesn't produce the necessary ROI.

I don't mean to be harsh. I'm just a knowledgeable electronics executive who himself has bought millions of dollars of product for multichannel retailers for decades, has been to 10+ Sony conferences in NJ, been to 20+ Sony CES presentations, has been in NYC board meetings with Sony brass countless times, knows how it works.

BJ

 

Thank you. Not trying to be harmful, just telling it like it is from the view of someone who no longer cares about PC performance, has decided that even the lowest-end Sony is going to be 200x better than the stuff he used in 2002, has a unique background in the CE business, knows how Sony functions, and is the very 40-something executive world-traveling businessman looking for a secondary notebook that they are seeking with the Pro 13.

I tell you what I tell my F30 brethren: There are thousands of minty E30's, E36's, and E46's for sale at dirt cheap prices, makes a great weekend car. In another unintentional analogy (irony?) there's nothing that says thou shalt have only 1 BMW and 1 notebook. One can have 2 BMW's and 2 notebooks and achieve a superior result than compromising on just one of each.

BJ

 

I do think the T is a joke, especially in the UK, Sony branded it as "the most portable Vaio", which is blatantly not true. 1.7kg for the 13inch model with ULV CPUs, seriously? And while it's touch screen the resolution is abysmal! Not to mention it is made in China while TT and Z are both made in Japan.

 

It doesnt mean anything as long as there are no official news from Sony. Models going EOL is common.
In my region area, prices for Z are marked up to 4k or so, and they still sell.

 

What do you mean? All the new haswells support EPT: Extended Page Table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Second Level Address Translation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ARK | Compare Intel® Products

Okay you are once again not making sense. The Z was not sold in any physical stores except for Sony's own Sony store, where, that's right, Sony can control its retail strategy and supply chain and stock.

 

And here lies the problem.

Whenever you mix people who care about something with people who don't, the result is not pretty.

The non-caring ones becomes the bullies/trolls and are saying things like:

"How can you possibly care about such petty things when objectively, statistically and realistically, you shouldn't?"

The thing is: You can't tell people what they should care about. Period.

And if it hasn't dawned on you yet, I can tell you that the caring comes first. *Then*, you get things like statistics, and then companies may decide what to do with that info. But here in this forum you find the die hard (die never) performance dudes who are doing the primary caring, and it's not going away. The only thing you can accomplish by continuing your mission (whatever it is) is to alienate us even more.

To get back to the matter about the Pro, I think you've helped making it quite clear.

1. The Pro is a MB Air competitor.
2. MB Air is not even close to a Z.
3. 1 and 2 leaves us with: The Pro is not even close to a Z.

So, can the ones who still see a Haswell Z down the road be allowed to continue speculate about it in this thread (which *is* the topic at hand), without being interrupted by bullies?

 

MOST of the Ultrabooks are slated to launch "Back to School" season from what Intel said at Computex. That means September, although it can be even later based on the models.

What he said in general may be right. Remember, Sony in the last few years is a company that's hemorrhaging money. I've heard that Apple's sales for their Macbook Pro line is less than 150k units a year. Even at $1500+ that's not much money. For Sony, a device selling at that price may be selling even less than that because their reputation is worse.

 

eh? I saw the Vaio Z in a number of retail stores in Europe.

 

I know what it is - wrote a blog post on it.

They changed it. Last week this chart ( Intel® Virtualization Technology List) said all NO for EPT.

So something funny is going on. One week it says one thing and the next, another.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Pro can't have 16GB which is really what I need.

 

In the spirit of getting this thread back on the more useful topic of "What is the best current Z replacement?" I do think Asher's post below makes sense.

The Acer Aspire Z3 meets my criteria:

• 3dMark11 score > 1500 (via NVIDIA 735m)
• 13", 1080p IPS
• Under 4 lbs

So yes, it's still low voltage but from the point of view of a guy whose sole need is to replace my VPCZ1 with a lightweight machine that has high-quality screen and significantly better GPU and CPU performance, I do believe this is the only true spiritual successor to the Z we have seen so far.

Comments? Any other verified, announced laptops that meet the 3 bullet points above? In my view, it all rests on the Iris Pro (HD 5200) benchmarks, when/if they come out. As far as I can tell from notebookcheck, the Iris Pro might give the 735m a run for its money. In which case there is no point in going with this hybrid.

 

Here's my $0.02, though it may not be worth that much.

What I felt was great about particularly the 2010 VPC-Z was that it was a PC for all users:
- For business users, such as myself, it had a docking station, good connectivity/ports, but light with an excellent FHD display
- For gamers/power users, it had full-speed processor and dedicated graphics, fast SSDs, but again in a light machine with reasonable battery life
- And for casual users, you could browse the internet, email, or watch blu-ray DVDs, again on one of the best TN displays I've seen.
So, if you have the money to spend, and unless you had really particular needs, the Z would fit the bill - and it did it all - you needed nothing else in your bag.

Where I felt Sony made a mistake was the marketing. I don't follow the market closely, but I came across the Z by chance - I was only looking at the likes of Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. I had assumed that Sony only made consumer machines with glossy screens - so it was quite a surprise when I first saw the Z. At the time - it was in a class of its own and had no competition (and perhaps you could argue, still is) - and could have been the "to die for" machine for everyone, but it never seemed to marketed strongly enough. Perhaps it needed its own brand I don't know. I just think its sales could have been much much higher.

And for my needs, I feel that Sony seems now to have dropped the business market altogether, first by dropping the docking station and kensington port, and now by dropping VGA and ethernet (which were, at least, in the Duo 11). I work in some orgaisations where wifi is banned for security reasons - so even the dongle Sony provide would not be adequate.

Sony Vaio is a great innovator (much more than other manufacturers in my opinion) - some of their Vaios in the past were without equal. The P, TT, as well as the Z to name a few. I think the Duo also fits within that class - it is an excellent hybrid. The Pro - not so - it is very light - but there are lighter ultrabooks around - perhaps its triluminous screen will be a great differentiator - I'm interested to see the results on that.

I just hope that they don't cut back on their R&D department, so they continue to innovate - and hopefully, before long, they produce something that's worthy of being called a Z successor. There are lots of really interesting machines being produced at the moment by many manufacturers, though none that I can see replace the Z. Neither the Pro nor Fit is for me, so I'll be moving from the Sony camp until they bring out the next big thing - hopefully soon!

 

Samsung has a 13" with 1080p and a dGPU (AMD) but it isn't sold in North America, we only get the GPU-less version. I think it's called the Series 7 Ultra.

 

More than likely, Iris Pro is to blame. If I look at notebookcheck, it seems that Iris Pro (if and when it ships) will come close to competing with the 730m-level NVIDIA in 3D graphics. In which case, every manufacturer that's bundling a mid-ranged GPU with a notebook will think twice.

This seems to vindicate Razer Blade's huge jump to the NVIDIA 765m----Razer may be right that this is the only way to definitively differentiate its notebook from the coming Iris Pro storm. But, in typical computer manufacturer self-destruct fashion, they go ahead and cripple it with a 14" 900p TN display.

 

Yes, looks great and gets a very positive review here:
Review Samsung Series 7 Ultra 730U3E-S04DE Ultrabook - NotebookCheck.net Reviews
Perhaps they'll announce a refresh in their June 20 event.

 

Wow that website should really be congratulated on the rigorousness of their reviews.

 

Er, that's the one I got if you read a few pages back and am now returning. The 1920x1080 is a nice display, it's touch, reasonably priced - but the keyboard and trackpad are total crap. My hands hurt using them. They haven't on any other laptop I've owned. The thing about the integrated GPU one they sell here is that you can put up to 16GB of memory in which you can't on the one with the dedicated GPU. It's also easy to change out the mSATA drive (unlike most of Sony's stuff). If the keyboard agrees with you, I say give it a whirl. Performance wasn't an issue; I was running VMs on it.

 

Please don't forget to mention WWAN!

I can't believe a toy like the new Duo has it, but not so the so called Professional.

 

Hmm, I hadn't seen that one yet but it definitely looks good if you are more interested in GPU performance than CPU. I personally do a lot of code compiling, image processing, and de/compression so I'm more interested in getting a full-power (or at least >15W) proc than I am in a dGPU solution, so I'm looking at the Zenbook Infinity. Glad to see there are at least a couple semi-interesting Z replacement options. Thanks for the tip!

 

What you don't understand is that "retail" isn't just physical stores but catalog and the Internet too. Sony made its decision, move on.

My Pro arrived at 11AM. On my way home now for the unboxing.

BJ

 

Nice, favour, can you check where it is built? cheers

 

For me, if I was going to get something like a Pro, I'd ante up and get the Panasonic AX3 (premium version with the 8GB and 256GB SSD; SSD is easily replacable in it) which was just released in Japan. Build quality is fantastic (liked the AX2 that way) and with this iteration, they fixed its fundamental issue: the screen. I hope the upcoming iterations of the SX and NX get such an upgrade (as well as stop using SATA II). It's not as "sexy" as either pro in terms of looks in many ways, but much more of a road warrior machine.

 

? Toshiba Portege Z930/R930, Dell Latitude E6230, Lenovo X1, HP Elitebook Folio etc.

Seems to be plenty of thin/ultra-thins targeted at the business community out there.

 

+1

Sold through many retail shops in Australia and Singapore (where I bought my Z1 and Z2 respectively)

Even in the US, couldn't you buy the Z through B&H Photo etc.?

 

It is here, it is awesome, and it is made in China.

BJ

 

Wow! That trackpad looks massive.

 

What's the keyboard flex like?

Edit: went and played with a 13" model at a retailer this evening. Unfortunately I didn't have my Z2 with me today (had my Helix instead). The keyboard doesn't appear to flex anymore than the Z2 does. Given the lack of travel in the keys (both the Z2 and the Pro), you'll probably not notice much if you type lightly.

It did feel lighter than the Z2, but that may be because the new wedge shape is easier to hold than the more box-like Z2