The Official Haswell/Z Speculation Thread

how about this?

Sony upgrades VAIO S and Z laptops to Ivy Bridge, debuts two new VAIO E notebooks - Notebookcheck.net News

what beatups told us is the truth!

+1 beaups.

 

^Did you think I'd lie?

 

You do have a bad track record around these parts

 

I would like:

-Quad Core - Dual-Core is just fine for a lot of people, but the Z is not your ordinary laptop, and especially when you shell out so much dough for one. I think the current "new" Z is getting this though, so no problems there.

-A new docking station, such as one instead of plugging in the Z, we slide it or just put our Z down on a dock. You know? An actual dock. The current design gets in the way.

-Better cooling/better battery life - this is especially important. Better battery life. 10 hours useable without the extended battery would be sick.

-A new design. While the current Z looks great, it seems too.... ordinary. It doesn't have much character except for the colors it comes with (the gold looks GORGEOUS), but in addition to feeling one and using one for quite some time, I was unimpressed with the keyboard and chassis quality. Make one with a design that turns heads. The current Z doesn't really do that. The thing I hate most about the current Z design is the thick bezel.

-Better GPU in the dock. Desktop quality high-end GPU. I would shell out a little more money for a better GPU if they gave options. There's no reason they couldn't do this, aside from costs, but I'm sure a lot of consumers would pay the extra for a bit better GPU. My MacBook Pro which was cheaper than the Z at the time has a better GPU, and it's built in. That's the way I saw it.

And a few things are to be expected, more/cheaper RAM, more/cheaper storage, and better integrated GPUs.

 

Nope, I just hope for something far better in my dream.

lol

lol that is what i want.

 

Well you got quad core at least

 

To be honest, I am completely happy with my MacBook Pro; however, I do not want to upgrade from Snow Leopard (10.6), because I hate the changes Apple is doing to it's OS. Now that Mountain Lion (10.8) is coming out, I might have to sell this and get a new computer if the latest Adobe Photoshop Suites and other softwares such as Office, etc. aren't supported, as I am a design major and my school always has the latest software supported only, and it would be a pain going back and forth between UIs and you never know with compatibility between files.

I am not necessarily in a hurry though, I might skip the Ivy Bridge update as this update is really lackluster... barely any CPU performance increase, all they did was clock the GPU a little higher and add a few shaders, and make the die smaller that allows them to clock it a little higher. In some cases it actually has worse battery life... Haswell should be a lot better.

 

so beaups, how about bluetooth 4.0 hs?

 

Hence the reason for the Haswell Z speculation thread. It's the perfect place to complain about the IB Z.

 

160W TDP?
Intel Haswell-EP Brings DDR4, to Eat up to 160W, 190 Amps by VR-Zone.com

 

Yeah, those are not for laptops Those are their highest end haswells.

 

I'm a little disappointed with the Ivy Bridge VAIO Z release, so much so that I was almost willing to deal with the larger footprint and heavier weight of the Retina MacBook Pro to replace my 2008 Z which aside from a few minor issues (sturdy but creaky build, and lack of a backlit keyboard) is still going strong.

For now, I've convinced myself to wait for Haswell and I hope Sony does indeed do a major redesign for its release. I absolutely agree with the above improvements and I'd like to chip in my additional thoughts:

• Increase max system memory limit to at least 16 GB, maybe 24 or 32 GB (I know that's really pushing it). Not happy that 8 GB remains to be the maximum you can put in the Ivy Bridge Z
• Thinner bezel! I was shocked that the thick, ugly bezel is still there. I think the bezel on my 2008 Z is perfect, and the overall chassis design of the 2010 Z remains to be my all time favorite notebook design. The new redesign should go back to that attractive, slim bezel it once had.
• Controls for the brightness of the backlit keyboard. Bring back the 2010 backlit keyboard with its brilliant white luminosity instead of the current pale yellow light. I actually think the light leakage around keys is a nice touch if done correctly.
• Whatever Sony is doing in the display design department is excellent. Superior color gamut compared to the Retina MBP. Sony should keep this up and continue to make strides in this area. Keep the matte finish.
• Improve the speakers and their positioning on the laptop (please, don't place them underneath). My 2008 Z speakers were OK, at least they were loud but in the new model I had to max out the volume to get any decent sound while trying it out in a noisy store.
• <s>Powerful Kepler GPU in the dock, something desktop-replacement worthy.</s> I would rather have standard Thunderbolt ports instead.

 

How about a 15" Z to give the MBP/retina some competition?

Or an IPS display -- yes that's what I'd really like to see. The Z2 panel may have great color but I really have to watch my viewing angle.

 

My Wish is a 10 hours min battery runtime without external battery in the case of the Z2. A 14 inch display so there will a less big bezel.

A black color where you cannot see the the fingerprints.

Touchscreen for Windows 8

 

Hard to argue with those wish list items, but I find the horizontal viewing angles to be close to as good as an IPS screen. Somehow vertical viewing angles don't seem that important to me, as long as you have around 20 degrees of latitude without color shifts or contrast changes, and the Z meets that minimum requirement. Thing is, whatever the "secret sauce" is that enables the Z's FHD screen to have near perfect color representation would not translate to an all new IPS screen, and the Z screen has better colors than all but the top 2-3 IPS displays, in the laptop world, eg, HP "Dreamcolor" screen.

 

As good as the HD 4000 Intel IGP is in the SVZ, I'm very excited about Haswell. I'm going to get one as soon as it comes out, I regret waiting so long on the Z2/SVZ.

 

Laptops are straying from slightly thicker, but less footprint to much thinner, but larger footprint (thus bigger bezels unless they add in a bigger screen).

I mean, with the current Z, they could easily add in a 14" screen to it and still have bezel space. I think they should just shrink the footprint. 13" is a great size.

 

This would mean the display will have to be a glass, capacitive touchscreen therefore you'll encounter reflections galore. I need a matte screen but if Sony can somehow add the touchscreen capability without compromising what the Z display currently is, then sure why not.

I was very impressed with the HD 4000 after seeing Lisa's game demo of the Z on MobileTechReview and I expect Haswell to be even better. Hoping for a March 2013 release but that's an optimistic roadmap date.

I love the 13" screen on my old Z but a 14" screen in the current model's footprint size would be pretty interesting. I wonder how much of a hit the battery life will take in that case. I also wouldn't mind if Sony went with a bit more thickness for a smaller footprint while keeping the same weight. Anything to slim down the bezel.

 

I don't care about IPS or any given screen technology per se. The Z has a superb track record in using top-quality panels. What I would like in screens is one of the current Z's quality that had a retina-resolution option. That, for me -- I know not for everybody, would be great. As for Bezels, I've made known my views on Bezelmania!

16GB RAM for Haswell makes sense. As for the speakers, I don't care, I'm working on a different sound option for the Z. As for the SSDs, I'm not sure they can be upgraded until the next generation comes out. The SSDs may be the best part of the Z.

Given that advances with Haswell itself are expected to be pretty good, the next gen Z will be a really cool machine. Unless Sony screws it up or there's not one at all.

 

Those parts are not mobile parts, but Xeon EP (and future EX) and, maybe, HEDT (Intel's term for castrated Xeons that end up being sold as high-end desktops, such as Core i7 3960x).

For high-end Xeons and HEDTs, those TDPs are not abnormally high, but I doubt Intel would not produce low-power Xeons as well, unless they create a completely new socket and product line (so, not like current Xeon E5s) and limit Haswell-EPs to high-end workstation/server market.

DDR4 is also something that is not coming to desktop Haswell, if the current leaks/rumors are to be believed - only to Haswell EP. If this is the case, I doubt very much mobile Haswells will have DDR4 support... for this, we will have to wait for Broadwell.

 

I wish the next Z had some of the features listed in my sig!!

 

That's a total bummer if the leaks hold and I doubt I can wait for Broadwell. I guess I'll just have to deal with DDR3. I'm sure if 16GB DDR4 memory is available on the next Z, it would have been certainly at a premium.

Another thing I would like to add to Haswell/Z speculation/wishlist is the standard implementation of the Thunderbolt port. My guess is Sony will keep the proprietary implementation so they can continue to make money off their PMDs but if those eGPU Thunderbolt enclosures come through next month (or so I've heard), I'll have to scratch the Z off my list unless they end up having standard Thunderbolt ports in their Haswell release.

 

Just to revive speculative suggestions in this thread:

I'd suggest they dropping this sort of implementation. Two more intersting questions: 1) Will we see a sort of reconceptualized Z3 on Ivy Bridge by the end of 2012?; 2) Will Z actually survive as a full-fledged-processor-platform-yet-ultralight by the srart of the Haswell somewhere by mid summer 2013?

As I see that VPCZ2/SV-Z13 has a "steroid life span", that is, survived more then one calendar year, I realize that by 2013 we will wintness the end of what is classic Z line, among the rise of mighty ULVs with touch screens. Just look at what became of legendary Vaio P (now Duo 11). Guess, the future of Z is somewhere in the top segment of ULV line.

 

Haswell is going to be quite a jump in terms of energy saving, I know Intel said that about Ivy Bridge but honestly I knew Ivy Bridge was going to be somewhat of a disappointment since Sandy Bridge was such good architecture for it's time, probably the biggest jump since Core 2 Duo was first announced.

The Sony Z design will most likely change, which would be welcome. While I really like the design of the current Z's, they are rather plain and don't quite stand out.

 

Second-guessing what Sony will do, especially now that they are in the throws of massive reorganization, is a high risk process at best. That said, the Sony Z "franchise" would appear to have enough value to Sony that it would not kill or dilute it. The Z2/PMD was a high risk move and, given all the ergonomic, er, challenges, it is quite a testimony to the draw of the brand and of the basic proposition: the most powerful, lightest notebook on the planet.

I wonder if they think their success is partially dependent on having the worst on-board audio on the planet too? Oh well, I'd rather they have the best (er, now second-best!) screen and worst audio rather than vice versa.

 

When do you suspect we'll begin to hear from Sony about the Z's future?

 

Agree! This is what I had on my mind.

 

I expect better build quality, the z2 wasnt sturdy enough for me. And that it packs thunderbolt, thus to avoid getting the dreaded pmd. Given the performance improvement that ivy and haswell will bring to the table, I care less for the gpu that is in there, I do care for the gpu that I will plug in.

 

Now that Intel gave us a bit more info of the Haswell lineup, we could continue here.

The latest info I've seen was more about ultra low power consumption, such as a current 21W IB was being reduced to a 15W (or even 10W) Haswell chip. But those TDPs aren't particularly interesting to us since they're only dual core and much lower spec than the current IB3612 in SVZ.

Then I found this article 2013 Haswell Mobile CPU Lineup - Power Sippers to Guzzlers by VR-Zone.com in which they state there a huge gap from the low power chips aimed for ultrabooks at ~15W to the higher spec quad core chips at 37W! I would had hoped for something in the middle to increase the power somewhat and at the same time aim for a 8-10h work day on battery, and perhaps even get a usable laptop without a fan.

What do you think Sony is aiming for? I mean, fanless could be the buzzword for next year's laptops but it's hardly for the Z, and not for the re-invented T either. For fanless, they should go for an old style TT, but for the Z, we'll probably be looking at 37W?

Have you seen any more info about the Haswell lineup?

 

2x performance of the current HD4000. Very nice indeed.

Haswell vs Ivy Bridge Graphics - IDF 2012 - YouTube

 

Wild guess: 15W CPU with 37W CPU in PMD :laugh:

 

...i'll take something/anything with nvidia on-board (not external)...

 

I think we can safely rule that out. The limited bandwidth between PMD and laptop would cripple the external CPU's memory access speed.

Regarding Haswell gfx, it seems the speedy versions are the ones on 47/57W and up. The demo seems to hint at a 2x performance vs HD4000 at the same power level, so I guess the 37W is a pretty safe bet for the Z. It will give it a substantial performance gap to all ultrabooks using 15W CPUs, but will still require an extra sheet battery to last a full day. But I'm not sure the CPU performance will increase that much at similar power levels? And still 4 cores it seems. A bit disappointing CPU wise so far.

 

Wonder if any news is on air as CES approaches...

 

Will one day one Windows OEM react to the Macbook Pro Retina 15 in a meaningfull way? I had hoped that either Sony or Samsung would produce a machine that was comparable. Alas so far nothing. Very close at this point to switch side. I currently use a Z1, decently happy with it, but want a bigger screen with the same dpi ratio, integrated dgpu, which means today MBPr. Samsung showed a prototype of a 2560x1440 in a laptop earlier this year, the Duo is a 1920x1080 in a 11 inch screen, why not make a bigger laptop with the same dpi ratio? I would prefer a 16x10 ratio, but that seems a lost battle in the Windows ecosystem, not so apparently in the Apple side. I hope to be pleasantly surprised but not holding my breath.

 

That is because it is much harder to fit in the same high dpi ration on a larger screen than it is on a smaller screen. Plus, 1920x1080 is already an existing ratio so Sony doesn't have to mess around with scaling and everything too much. Thus, they can fit in the Full HD resolution in a small notebook and achieve that high dpi. On the other hand, in order to achieve that high dpi on a 15 inch notebook, they need to have a much higher resolution than Full HD. While the live tile interface of Windows 8 can easily handle such scaling, the desktop environment cannot as you would need to make everything bigger by setting the default size to say, 200%. I believe that the scaling in the desktop environment is a problem for most OEMs right now and is something that needs to be addressed by Microsoft very soon if they want to compete with Apple display - quality wise (both directly through their surfaces and other upcoming hardware as well as indirectly through OEMs).

If Microsoft simply ignored the Retina market space like they did with tablets 4-5 years ago, then they can expect a drop in business as consumers run to Apple for a computer/device that has a high quality screen. Microsoft would be losing a lot more people than just the media/content creators. The folks over at Redmond really need to stop reacting and instead be the ones to innvovate and make the change.

 

13" and 2560x1440 is still quite a possible (and feasible) direction set for 2014, I'd say. True, dpi ration is of a biggest problem, but not for the premium segment (in 2008-2010 FullHD on 13" looked also rediculous even on Vista/Win7). But now, with Win8, the ways look more "either... or" case: either 2560 or FullHD touch.

 

Microsoft is differentiating themselves with touchscreen on laptops. Retina Macbooks are very expensive anyway. Touchscreen Win 8 laptops can be had for much less.

 

True that touchscreen laptops can be had for much less but you fail to see that these two markets are very different. There is a bridge between them and one side is dominated by Apple alone (the retina marketspace) while the other (the touch arena) is being carved up at the moment by Apple with their iPads and Microsoft with Windows 8.

The company that makes the move to bridge the gap first will be most profitable, and Microsoft, if it fails here (like it somewhat has in the past) would really be missing out on a golden opportunity.

In order to bridge the gap, all that they would need to do would be to bring the retina screen equivalent to the surface and their OEMs. At first, it will be limited to premium, expensive machines, but as the trend catches on, and more machines sport retina touchscreens, prices will go down and be more affordable.

It is essentially who can win the race and enable the supply and demand of retina touchscreens on laptops/convertibles/tablets.

 

It's not just about screen resolution. I need CPU power, and as we discussed in he Duo11-thread, it seems Win8 implies touchscreen, which in turn implies tablet, which in turn implies low power.

The gap, (if there is one) to me, is about CPU power. Touchscreen and Win8 are involved here, but only by circumstance.

Just thought of a cool Z: Dual CPUs, one full power Haswell with lots of GPU cores and one U for fanless tablet mode. 13" screen (FullHD is enough) with Duo11 type slider that goes all the way back to expose a full size keyboard. But actually, not sure I personally care much for a tablet mode at all since the combo is such a bad compromise. In the couch (in consumer mode), I want a low weight touchscreen device, but at work (in producer mode) I want a powerful CPU with full size keyboard, and those two simply don't mix.

 

If Sony is re-designing the Z here are the changes I would make:

- Keep the laptop form factor but add a touch screen for Windows 8
- Keep the eGPU concept but drop Lightpeak in favor of Thunderbolt
- Replace the VGA connectors with Displayport for support of high resolution displays
- Make the case more rigid, either an aluminium chassis or a rigid carbon fiber a-la Lenovo X1
- Glass trackpad that is larger

 

Very likely, we'll get a touch screen system and somewhat bigger trackpad (of course if the classic notebook chassis survives). VGA has lived out.
Let's see what CES 2013 will show us in terms of the prototypes/dummies, if actually any of them appear there.

 

I don't think that combo makes sense. To use a touch screen, you mustn't have a keyboard in the way, or you get "Gorilla arms". I tried to make that point in the Duo thread a few months back, see 'Gorilla Arm' Will Keep Touch Screens From Taking Over - Slashdot

 

Though VGA is definitely antiquated it is just about the only connection to a projector that I ever encounter (though at this point it should be HDMI/DisplayPort should really be the standard). I think that Sony realizes this, and I while it sticks out a bit on the chassis, Sony's made a logical decision to retain it even on their newer models such as the T series ultrabook and the Duo 11 (in addition to their Z). Maybe in a few years, it will disappear, but not anytime soon (as in the upcoming refresh in June). The VGA connection is still going strong.

 

No one said that you had to suspend your arm in the air to use a laptop touchscreen. Many people are going to rest their arm on their elbow or find some other way to interact with their device so that they do not get "Gorilla arms".

 

I understand where you are coming from but really it's a matter of something that can be worked around with an adapter (VGA) versus something there is no working around (support for high resolution displays). Give us the displayport for the high resolution displays and I'm happy to carry around an adapter if I ever need VGA, this way I get both functions but with the VGA port I only get one.

 

Very unlikely. Sony never implemented the displayport. Thunderbolt or HDMI are good options for future models.

 

You are talking about a device that would cost north of 2000 to make and around 4000 to purchase. Knowing Sony, they would have to sell it for around $6000 USD.

Such a device CAN be made- just not by Sony.

This is no slur against Sony but rather a realistic view on a combination of devices. Remember the Asus Padfone? That wasn't the biggest success was it? Well, I think you might have made yourself a similar case here.

 

Just looking for an answer to Apple MBPr 15" done on a native Windows machine. You can run Windows on the MBPr but it is to some degree a compromise, though at this point I am very close to buy it. Would probably use both OS on it. But my life would be easier if Sony created (or another creative Windows OEM) an hardware to was competitive in the 15" form factor. And it helps Apple case that it has a 16x10 screen ratio that everyone else has abandoned. I will also look at at the replacement for the Z in the 13" form factor but again I prefer 15". Folks are running the MBPr 15" in Windows 7 mode at 150dpi ratio w/o major failing (I have run 120dpi on Windows 7 on a Z for ages).
And if Apple can sell it for roughly $2200, Sony does not have to sell it for your first born child.
I don't care much for touch or Windows 8 at this point, if I need a touch device I would buy a true tablet (also have the iPad for that).

 

Any info from CES 2013 regards to the new Z?